Pigapult clarification

[KBB]

I hace two questions about the pigapult that i think need clarification:

-First, does the Full Load attack require LOS to the site you want to place the model you throw?

-Second, does the FAQ number 14 (clarifying shockwaves) affect the pigapult? I mean, os the model thrown by the pigapult affected by the Shockwave or not?

Thank you very much

[solkan]

5 hours ago, KBB said:

-First, does the Full Load attack require LOS to the site you want to place the model you throw?

In order for a place effect to require line of sight to where you place the model, the range of the place effect would have to be either ,or say something like "in LoS".  Otherwise, you go with what it says in Place:  "If the Place effect has a range, measure from the closest point of the base in the desired direction to place the object (do not take into account vertical distance), and place it anywhere within that range. If it cannot fit in the location, it cannot be placed and does not move (or count as moving)."

5 hours ago, KBB said:

-Second, does the FAQ number 14 (clarifying shockwaves) affect the pigapult? I mean, os the model thrown by the pigapult affected by the Shockwave or not?

The FAQ entry:

Quote

If a Shockwave Action is centered on a model (from an effect such as Wong’s Uncontrollable Magic), does that model suffer the effects of the Shockwave?
a) No. In such cases, Shockwave Markers aren’t dropped and instead the Shockwave is generated as a p centered on the model,

which (as per Pulses pg. 31) does not affect the object from which the p is centered.

Full Load specifies "Shockwave 3, Mv 15, Damage 2 centered on the chosen model".  So the FAQ applies--the chosen model does not test because it's not affected by the shockwave.

For the inevitable follow up question, "So why the heck does "Loaded Ammo" have the preamble "If the chosen model is a Stuffed Piglet and it was not killed by this action, ..."?  The only thing I can suggest is overly cautious effect wording, or trying to keep the semantics consistent with after succeeding triggers with targets.

In other words, it is very unlikely for there to be a sequence of events that leads to the attack Full Load killing the stuffed piglet placed by the action.  

[Jesy Blue]

I guess if you launch it into Hazardous terrain, upon placing it would take damage.... that'ss how it could be killed by this action.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

I guess if you launch it into Hazardous terrain, upon placing it would take damage.... that'ss how it could be killed by this action.

It wouldn't take damage until after resolving the action, and it wouldn't be the action that killed the pig.

[ShinChan]

 

7 hours ago, solkan said:

In order for a place effect to require line of sight to where you place the model, the range of the place effect would have to be either ,or say something like "in LoS".  Otherwise, you go with what it says in Place:  "If the Place effect has a range, measure from the closest point of the base in the desired direction to place the object (do not take into account vertical distance), and place it anywhere within that range. If it cannot fit in the location, it cannot be placed and does not move (or count as moving)."

The FAQ entry:

Full Load specifies "Shockwave 3, Mv 15, Damage 2 centered on the chosen model".  So the FAQ applies--the chosen model does not test because it's not affected by the shockwave.

For the inevitable follow up question, "So why the heck does "Loaded Ammo" have the preamble "If the chosen model is a Stuffed Piglet and it was not killed by this action, ..."?  The only thing I can suggest is overly cautious effect wording, or trying to keep the semantics consistent with after succeeding triggers with targets.

In other words, it is very unlikely for there to be a sequence of events that leads to the attack Full Load killing the stuffed piglet placed by the action.  

You're missing an important thing. The FAQ references Wong's ability:

"From an effect such Wong's ability Uncontrollable Magic". 

That ability says:

"When this model would Drop a Shockwave Marker, it may instead center that Shockwave on a friendly Wizz-Bang model within range."

And I think the FAQ addresses the question that raises here in the forums asking: Would that model be affected by the shockwave and potentially gaining 2 glowy tokens from a Fzzzzap! action? 

 

If you see the wording, there are other 3 models that can" channel" similar attacks/abilities through other models, and those would be also affected by the FAQ:

"Suddenly, Doves!" - Angelica Durand

"Freeze over" - Rasputina through the Wendigo thanks to the frozen conduit. 

 

In those cases the shockwave is centered on the model, those cases use the wording "instead dropping a shockwave marker" to specify it.

The Pigapult doesn't say than you don't have to drop a shockwave marker in any point, so we must assume that there is a shockwave marker and so, the shockwave is not centered on the model, the marker is. 

There are several details that lead me to this conclusion:

1. Otherwise, the "Loaded Ammo" trigger doesn't work at all. 
2. The FAQ really refers to Wong's ability of an example of the abilities that it affects to. 
3. There was a discussion in this forum about the case of Uncontrollable Magic (the case used in the FAQ) being used to give 2 glowy tokens to a model. 
4. The FAQ doesn't address directly the Pigapult. 

 

[Adran]

The faq question talks about a shockwave action centered on a model. Pigapult does say it is a shockwave, and that it is centered on a model.

I think the faq was worded to treat both actions even though they are worded differently. 

Loaded ammo is a strange one, but I can come up with a few cases the model would die during the action before it would go off, such as models with black blood.  

[ShinChan]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

The faq question talks about a shockwave action centered on a model. Pigapult does say it is a shockwave, and that it is centered on a model.

I think the faq was worded to treat both actions even though they are worded differently. 

Loaded ammo is a strange one, but I can come up with a few cases the model would die during the action before it would go off, such as models with black blood.  

You're ignoring the part of tge FAQ that uses Wong's ability as an example and the wording between Wong's ability and the Pigapult are not the same.

One doesn't drop a shockwave marker and centers the shockwave in a model. 

The other one drops a shockwave marker, centered on the model. 

[Adran]

46 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

You're ignoring the part of tge FAQ that uses Wong's ability as an example and the wording between Wong's ability and the Pigapult are not the same.

I know the abilities have different wording, but the question asked fits both wording. Just because it mentioned wongs ability as an example it doesn't stop it applying to other abilities. 

[solkan]

49 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

You're ignoring the part of tge FAQ that uses Wong's ability as an example and the wording between Wong's ability and the Pigapult are not the same.

And you appear to be saying “Because the FAQ mentions one effect by name, it doesn’t apply to anything else.”

Uncontrollable Magic is an ability where you center a Shockwave on a model instead of dropping a marker.

Pigapult is a Shockwave centered on a model.

The FAQ calls out 

10 hours ago, solkan said:

If a Shockwave Action is centered on a model

The FAQ doesn’t limit itself to the “instead” situations.  You’re making the assumption that it meant to only apply to those, because it happened to mention one.

 

[diki]

Ignoring any rules it's fairly illogical to think that an object that is thrown with such force that it's landing creates enough force to hurt nearby creatures wouldn't itself take harm.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, diki said:

Ignoring any rules it's fairly illogical to think that an object that is thrown with such force that it's landing creates enough force to hurt nearby creatures wouldn't itself take harm.

I'm not sure you can apply any form of logic to the pigapult. Or bayou in general. 😀

But if you want to, you can assume they have developed some sort of cage that protects the passenger by breaking apart on impact to dissipate the forces, it's just dangerous to anyone within about 6'.(2" game space). 

[ShinChan]

16 minutes ago, solkan said:

And you appear to be saying “Because the FAQ mentions one effect by name, it doesn’t apply to anything else.”

No, I'm applying it to all the abilities with the same wording.

Uncontrollable Magic is an ability where you center a Shockwave on a model instead of dropping a marker. 

Pigapult is a Shockwave centered on a model.

No, it's a Shockwave marker centered on the model. Tell we where in Full Load says that you don't drop a Shockwave marker.

The FAQ calls out 

The FAQ doesn’t limit itself to the “instead” situations.  You’re making the assumption that it meant to only apply to those, because it happened to mention one.

 

IMHO Pigapult is a Drop a Shockwave Marker centered on a model.

Wong's, Rasputina and Angelica Durand center the shockwave on a model.

There is a difference there. The FAQ says:

 

"from an effect such as Wong's Uncontrollable Magic". Let's see what that says:

What other effects are like that? The ones I mentioned before:

(Rasputina channeling through the Wendigo)

Angelica Durand

There are more abilities with the same wording, but mainly target Scheme Markers: Iggy, Undercover Reporter, Sa.boteur and Fitzsimmons. In all of those examples, there is no Shockwave marker and instead the Shockwave is centered in a model (or Scheme Marker) that, according to the FAQ, doesn't affect the model that is centered on.

On the other hand, the Pigapult:

So following the rules for shockwaves, a marker is dropped. Where is it dropped? Centered on the model that was just launched. But nowhere says "Don't drop a shockwave marker, create a shockwave centered in the model". Is Full Load an ability "such as" Wong's Incontrollable Magic? No, it is not, so IMHO it is not affected by the FAQ, because the FAQ references to abilities "such as Wong's Incontrollable Magic", and there are some examples of abilities like that, while the Full Load is not one of them.

If a model with Black Blood kills the Piglet, it's Black Blood (and because of that) the model that has Black Blood the one that killed the Piglet, so the trigger wouldn't make sense.

 

 

[Adran]

16 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

 

There is a difference there. The FAQ says:

 

"from an effect such as Wong's Uncontrollable Magic".

If they used full load as the example the answer would still apply to Wong, Rasputina and Angela. 

If the question was " if a model is used instead of a shockwave marker, does it suffer the effects?" Then I would agree with your reading, but that's not the question they answer. 

Does full load say it centres on a model? Yes it does. 

Is it a shockwave? Yes it is. 

Does this faq apply to it? Yes because it meets the requirements of the question. 

[solkan]

 

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

So following the rules for shockwaves, a marker is dropped. Where is it dropped? Centered on the model that was just launched.

You're not making your argument more convincing by repetition.  Especially when you end claiming that "center that Shockwave on the chosen model" is different from "Shockwave ... centered on the chosen model".

On the opposite side of things, if you have access to the beta files, you should be able to see that the wording of that trigger dates back to a version of that action that did explicitly cause damage to the chosen model.  (It directly damaged or killed the model, without using the shockwave rules.)  That got changed and the trigger wording didn't change.

 

[ShinChan]

8 minutes ago, solkan said:

 

You're not making your argument more convincing by repetition.  Especially when you end claiming that "center that Shockwave on the chosen model" is different from "Shockwave ... centered on the chosen model".

On the opposite side of things, if you have access to the beta files, you should be able to see that the wording of that trigger dates back to a version of that action that did explicitly cause damage to the chosen model.  (It directly damaged or killed the model, without using the shockwave rules.)  That got changed and the trigger wording didn't change.

 

The ability/abilities referenced in the FAQ say that they don't drop a shockwave marker. 

The ability in the Pigapult never says it doesn't drop a shockwave marker, like the ones referenced in tge FAQ (Incontrollable Magic and those like that). I know I'm maybe being obtuse here, but I just want to expose my point.

13 minutes ago, Adran said:

If they used full load as the example the answer would still apply to Wong, Rasputina and Angela. 

If the question was " if a model is used instead of a shockwave marker, does it suffer the effects?" Then I would agree with your reading, but that's not the question they answer. 

Does full load say it centres on a model? Yes it does. 

Is it a shockwave? Yes it is. 

Does this faq apply to it? Yes because it meets the requirements of the question. 

But they didn't mention the Pigapult and abilities like Full Load, did they? They're refering to those abilities that don't drop a shockwave marker and are instead centered on a model. 

I understand what you both are saying, and I see how it could be interpreted like that 🙂

[Adran]

2 hours ago, ShinChan said:

 

But they didn't mention the Pigapult and abilities like Full Load, did they? They're refering to those abilities that don't drop a shockwave marker and are instead centered on a model. 

I understand what you both are saying, and I see how it could be interpreted like that 🙂

I know what you're saying, but I could use exactly the same argument to discount rasputina or Angela because they don't have an ability altering their shockwaves they just have specific rules in the shockwaves. So maybe they are only referring to external abilities that alter shockwaves. 

I don't know the intent, and prior to the faq I said the difference in wording meant that probably the pigapult dropped a marker. But the faq, to my reading, has changed that. I don't think it is just referring to shockwaves that have a choice of what to use, but rather all shockwaves that are centering the effects from a model ( according to their rules, rather than I just chose to drop the shock wave marker directly underneath them). 

[Mycellanious]

15 hours ago, ShinChan said:

The ability/abilities referenced in the FAQ say that they don't drop a shockwave marker. 

The ability in the Pigapult never says it doesn't drop a shockwave marker, like the ones referenced in tge FAQ (Incontrollable Magic and those like that). I know I'm maybe being obtuse here, but I just want to expose my point.

But they didn't mention the Pigapult and abilities like Full Load, did they? They're refering to those abilities that don't drop a shockwave marker and are instead centered on a model. 

I understand what you both are saying, and I see how it could be interpreted like that 🙂

Do not forget that based on this interpretation, if you throw a 40 or 50mm model, no shockwave happens since it would be entirely blocked by the thrown model and as such, only the thrown model would be effected by the shockwave.