Neverborn lack scheme runners

[Ceodoc]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:40 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think regardless of faction or crew, you have to treat every (significant) model as a potential scheme runner when needed.

I couldn't count how many times Molly's last turn has been move, move, interact. Or how many times I've used a Dead Rider to scheme on turn 5.

Also worth noting the key question is: do Neverborn win a lot? And I think they're a dominant force in Russia (with dual masters being allowed), so clearly they're able to score points somehow.

Dreamer n Mama Z are not the best dual Master in M3e.

I recall that the reason dual masters are not used in the UK is because of a Rezzer dual master combo that is broke and led the top players of the meta to engineer the UK scene would not play dual masters (competitively).

So that being said I dont see NVB winning 'more's often.

I think the glass cannon moniker has been changed to glass handgun, like someone mentioned above.

I would like to know where Wyrd see NVB now.

Certainly not the killiest anymore, mobility; no getting outrun by zombies.

I think NVB are now the box of chocolates faction, it's just we have too many soft centres and not enough dark choccy Nutz choices.

 

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

I think the glass cannon moniker has been changed to glass handgun, like someone mentioned above.

Yay it's catching on!

[Roadhouse]

What about Bultungin? SPD 6 with Deadly Pursuit and cost 6 outside of keyword.

I haven't played in years, getting back into the game as a friend started building a table.

[Nagi21]

On 7/7/2020 at 1:57 PM, Roadhouse said:

What about Bultungin? SPD 6 with Deadly Pursuit and cost 6 outside of keyword.

I haven't played in years, getting back into the game as a friend started building a table.

Look at the rest of the statline and their attack.  They're fast, but the issue with them is dying to a stiff breeze.

[Adran]

27 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Look at the rest of the statline and their attack.  They're fast, but the issue with them is dying to a stiff breeze.

Although that could be said about most models that cost 5 or 6. There are a few outliers (necropunks have always been mobile and hard to get rid of),  but most factions "scheme runners" are about as fragile.

 

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 9:48 AM, Ceodoc said:

Dreamer n Mama Z are not the best dual Master in M3e.

I recall that the reason dual masters are not used in the UK is because of a Rezzer dual master combo that is broke and led the top players of the meta to engineer the UK scene would not play dual masters (competitively).

I don't use social media so the discussion might have happened without me noticing, but I thought that a lot of the UK crowd were vocally against 2nd masters during Beta which suggests it wasn't any 1 combination that was broken, but rather the idea that they didn't like.  (If the UK dropped it because there is 1 broken combo they knew about, then they probably should have shown that during beta, and I don't' think the rest of the world, that allows multiple masters, have found  this combo).

[Ceodoc]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Although that could be said about most models that cost 5 or 6. There are a few outliers (necropunks have always been mobile and hard to get rid of),  but most factions "scheme runners" are about as fragile.

 

I don't use social media so the discussion might have happened without me noticing, but I thought that a lot of the UK crowd were vocally against 2nd masters during Beta which suggests it wasn't any 1 combination that was broken, but rather the idea that they didn't like.  (If the UK dropped it because there is 1 broken combo they knew about, then they probably should have shown that during beta, and I don't' think the rest of the world, that allows multiple masters, have found  this combo).

I am sure you are right, it was a combination of a few duos that did it, I think the Rezxer one was just an example.

[Nagi21]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Although that could be said about most models that cost 5 or 6. There are a few outliers (necropunks have always been mobile and hard to get rid of),  but most factions "scheme runners" are about as fragile.

Mostly true, but other than the outliers that are survivable, other scheme runners have one of three things:

A) A way to stay alive while they do their thing

2) A way to kill something at around its own cost to force a larger reaction

C) A way to lay down more than 1 scheme marker per turn

The bultungin fall under none of these.  It does not survive against most other 5 stone models, it does not murder most other 5-6 stone models, and while it has deadly pursuit, that does not help in laying down markers like something like leap would due to the timing.

[Da Git]

If you're looking for something fast, I think the best one is a Young Nephilim... Kinda expensive at 8ss OOK, but he's hitty, fast and can take a (but that's about it!) punch!

A Shaman is a (slightly) cheaper version, giving you Blasphemous Ritual Turn 1, but doesn't hit nearly as hard... Although has better changes of becoming a Mature!

Not a Runner, but you can't go past Serena for things like Claim Jump...

Another 8ss OOK model I really like is the Adze, super fast at Flight 7, has Ambush, so can drop 2 markers in a turn on opposite ends of the base, good attack & offensive bonus action, can take a hit. Again, Wisps are your budget version for 5ss OOK.

[Roadhouse]

The Adze seems like a great model with alot of utility. The sculpt is soooo ugly though

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

Mostly true, but other than the outliers that are survivable, other scheme runners have one of three things:

A) A way to stay alive while they do their thing

2) A way to kill something at around its own cost to force a larger reaction

C) A way to lay down more than 1 scheme marker per turn

The bultungin fall under none of these.  It does not survive against most other 5 stone models, it does not murder most other 5-6 stone models, and while it has deadly pursuit, that does not help in laying down markers like something like leap would due to the timing.

They do have elements from all 3 things. They have the potential to move 10" from where they last dropped a marker, and still drop a marker. That further than some models threat range. The deadly pursuit can get you unengagegd, but at the cost of making you want to activate earlier in the turn than may be normal.

They aren't a bad hitter for their cost. Its not a huge stat or damage track, but stat 5 2/3/4 attack is at least threatening to models its own price range. If you add in focus (If they are moving and interacting, then they may well have the spare action to concentrate) they have a decent chance to kill a similar costed model in 1 activation. There are very few 5 stone models with a better track.

Its not very likely but its not impossible for them to drop 2 markers in a turn. It does require them to kill a model on a charge with an unsuited trigger.

 

I wouldn't look to them as a general scheme runner for all occasions but if you need speed, they are pretty fast .

[Da Git]

The other model I really like is the Wicked Doll, 3ss (so can take 2 for the same cost as and OOK Necropunk). Stealth, Creep Along and 2 bodies on the field mean you can spread out and drop 2+ markers a turn on opposite sides of the board.

Absolute bargain!

[Nagi21]

6 hours ago, Da Git said:

The other model I really like is the Wicked Doll, 3ss (so can take 2 for the same cost as and OOK Necropunk). Stealth, Creep Along and 2 bodies on the field mean you can spread out and drop 2+ markers a turn on opposite sides of the board.

Absolute bargain!

They're not bad but they get stepped on by literally anything and their movement bonus action requires something to be towards what it's going to, which presents some issues in a lot of situations.  Still, they have their uses.

[dzlier]

On 7/11/2020 at 10:08 AM, Nagi21 said:

They're not bad but they get stepped on by literally anything and their movement bonus action requires something to be towards what it's going to, which presents some issues in a lot of situations.  Still, they have their uses.

I think running them as a pair is how you utilize their movement action, though of course you don't get to spread them out that way.

Either that or you just send them after another model near them has gone in order to leap frog past them.

I've yet to try them though so I'll see.

[santaclaws01]

17 hours ago, dzlier said:

I think running them as a pair is how you utilize their movement action, though of course you don't get to spread them out that way.

Yeah, running a pair of them would be my go to if I'm playing like Titania or something and I need scheme runners. I think most other keywords have better options from due to keyword synergies or just better models for scheme running.

[Da Git]

I think this really comes down to people wanting Necropunks in Neverborn... a cheap no-brainer scheme-runner that you don't need to think about... Neverborn have lots of scheme runners that I have mentioned above and while no, they're not as good as a Necropunk or Silurid, I do think there are options. With Adze, Wicked Dolls,Young Nephilim and BBS being the stand outs IMO.

The main bad ones that I think really needs improving is Bultungin and Blood Wretch. The problem is is that Wyrd has tried to make both these models something that just doesn't work in this game. Cheap glass cannon attack pieces (that lack a cannon). Both probably need a complete re-work to be made into scheme runners, but here are some simple stop-gap ideas.

Give Bultungin HtK/Stealth and maybe Ambush as a Bonus action in place of Pack Mentality and Coordinated Assault and he'd be fine.

For the Blood Wretch; again, just give it HtK, maybe Unimpeded and you'd be looking good with Mv 6 Risky maneouver.

 

[Nagi21]

15 hours ago, Da Git said:

With Adze, Wicked Dolls,Young Nephilim and BBS being the stand outs IMO.

The main bad ones that I think really needs improving is Bultungin and Blood Wretch. The problem is is that Wyrd has tried to make both these models something that just doesn't work in this game. Cheap glass cannon attack pieces (that lack a cannon). Both probably need a complete re-work to be made into scheme runners, but here are some simple stop-gap ideas.

Give Bultungin HtK/Stealth and maybe Ambush as a Bonus action in place of Pack Mentality and Coordinated Assault and he'd be fine.

For the Blood Wretch; again, just give it HtK, maybe Unimpeded and you'd be looking good with Mv 6 Risky maneouver.

 

Wicked Dolls need help so that's actually 2 dolls minimum.  Adze is a bit pricy, and more importantly he lacks a way to drop more than one marker per turn unless you go exactly in a straight line with no issues.  The young has a bit more wiggle room on this, but again, I hesitate to use a 7ss model for just scheming, particularly a cruise missile like the Young.  BBS isn't a schemer.  Sure it can scheme like anything else, but it's needed as an early support piece, and a late game grow target.

The faction really just needs something that can be more AP efficient without costing an arm and a leg, or get somewhere were your opponent can't react (see: ss miners).

As far as the suggestions, the Bultungin change would be interesting since it would force your opponent to commit extra or risk losing in a scheme runner fight.  Ambush or leap or something would be good too.

Blood wretches would need more than HtK.  The kit has 0 offensive or defensive power.  What I'd honestly like to see is them with something like a sawed-off shotgun and reposition.  

[Da Git]

7 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Wicked Dolls need help so that's actually 2 dolls minimum.

That's still only 6ss for the pair... With Creep Along and Stealth... What do you want for a 3ss model?

Adze is a bit pricy, and more importantly he lacks a way to drop more than one marker per turn unless you go exactly in a straight line with no issues. 

That's still pretty bloody good.

The young has a bit more wiggle room on this, but again, I hesitate to use a 7ss model for just scheming, particularly a cruise missile like the Young.  BBS isn't a schemer.  Sure it can scheme like anything else, but it's needed as an early support piece, and a late game grow target.

Dedicated schemers, No. But they can scheme with the best of them... (probably better than anything I can think of outside a Silurid ie. the best scheme runner in the game bar none). Only downside is that they can't get away if they're tied up in melee. Although the Young can potentially kill whatever is tying it up.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

 The young has a bit more wiggle room on this, but again, I hesitate to use a 7ss model for just scheming, particularly a cruise missile like the Young.  BBS isn't a schemer.  Sure it can scheme like anything else, but it's needed as an early support piece, and a late game grow target.

I find this part a bit weird. My favourite scheme runners are Archie (9 stones) and Dead Rider (11 stones), and Crooligans (4 stones with 8+ stones in delivery system).

Scoring is the most important part of the game. You really have to invest a lot of stones in it. Even a Necropunk isn't going to score if you don't protect it/force enough pressure that they can't attack it.

[Nagi21]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I find this part a bit weird. My favourite scheme runners are Archie (9 stones) and Dead Rider (11 stones), and Crooligans (4 stones with 8+ stones in delivery system).

Scoring is the most important part of the game. You really have to invest a lot of stones in it. Even a Necropunk isn't going to score if you don't protect it/force enough pressure that they can't attack it.

Oh I'm not saying that 7ss models can't scheme.  I've used everything from a Wicked Doll to Nekima herself to scheme depending on the situation.  My point is that there are a lot of things I'd rather that 7ss model be doing, and even then it's not a dedicated schemer since it's main trick is marker walk marker (assuming it's not engaged).  A lot of the NVB options with scheming is Jack of all (at best) master of none.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Oh I'm not saying that 7ss models can't scheme.  I've used everything from a Wicked Doll to Nekima herself to scheme depending on the situation.  My point is that there are a lot of things I'd rather that 7ss model be doing, and even then it's not a dedicated schemer since it's main trick is marker walk marker (assuming it's not engaged).  A lot of the NVB options with scheming is Jack of all (at best) master of none.

Yeah, Neverborn are certainly in an odd place scheming wise.

But I think that it is just part of their design that they have to flexibly use the whole crew to score.

It worked well in GG0, so hopefully there are some boosts for GG2 to bring it back up to snuff.

[dzlier]

14 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

BBS isn't a schemer.  Sure it can scheme like anything else,

Anything with Leap/Ride With Me/Fly With Me is better at scheming than anything without one of those abilities.