Neverborn lack scheme runners

[esqulax]

This is something that has been bothering me since the advent of M3. We no longer have any good cheap scheme runners. This problem has only been emphasized by the new gaining grounds where a strategy like Symbols of Authority require you to have some very fast models in order to have any chance of reaching the markers. In my opinion this is wrong as Neverborn are supposed to be the "fast and fragile" faction, but right now we are being left in the dust by a faction such as Ressers (Seriously, why are they so incredibly mobile in M3??) 

 As I see it right now we have four real options in preparing for Symbols of Authority, all with their own flaws. 

1. Silurid and Gubs. These are still amazing for scheming and I feel like a lot of our problems would have been solved if these were still in our faction, but sadly right now we need to play Zoraida to have access to them. 

2. Cerberus. These are starting to get pretty expensive to use as scheme runners. Especially since Marcus needs to spend time to throw some upgrades on them to make sure they don't crumble like the thin tissue paper they are made of. Again these are also master specific

3. The spider friends Widow and Bander. These two together are incredibly mobile and don't have any trouble leaping across the battlefield to reach the markers. Sadly though they come at 15ss in Keyword and 17ss out of keyword, so not exactly cheap. 

4. Hooded Rider. By far our most mobile model that isn't keyword specific. Sadly at 11ss you are paying a premium if you are intending to primarily use him as a schemer. 

I really feel like we could use some of our old options back. It might also help with the glaring issue that 90% of our models below 7ss are incredibly weak. For example if Tots got sprint back it would help fix a faction issue that I don't think was intended plus it would fix the problem that Tots are completely useless currently. 


Any thoughts? Do you feel I am completely in the wrong here? 

[diki]

Do you mean corrupted ley lines?

If you are talking about cheap scheme runners it seems odd you haven't given you opinion on Wicked Dolls and Corrupted hounds given they are literally the cheapest models in the faction. (Note I had been thinking Corrupted hounds were versatile, probably getting confused from when I only had Marcus, and apparantly they are not)

[Adran]

M3 neverborn are in a slightly funny place with regards to scheme runners. They had some of the best scheme runners in the first 2 editions in the form of terror tots, Gupps and silurids.

With a slight change to terror tots and the faction change of the silurids/gupps, the cupboard looks a lot barer (possibly because its always had these good options, it didn't get many added in the subsequent releases)

But I would still say that Neverborn are generally faster than Guild are currently, and faster and better at dropping schemes than guild were for most of M2E. (Just because they have a move stat that probably averages 1-2 points more).

So yes, its a problem that many neverborn players aren't used to dealing with, but its not a problem that is unique to neverborn, or is new to this edition

[esqulax]

26 minutes ago, diki said:

Do you mean corrupted ley lines?

If you are talking about cheap scheme runners it seems odd you haven't given you opinion on Wicked Dolls and Corrupted hounds given they are literally the cheapest models in the faction. (Note I had been thinking Corrupted hounds were versatile, probably getting confused from when I only had Marcus, and apparantly they are not)

I mean Symbols of Authority. I had my names mixed up. And even though wicked dolls are cheap, they are in no way fast enough. 

 

27 minutes ago, Adran said:

M3 neverborn are in a slightly funny place with regards to scheme runners. They had some of the best scheme runners in the first 2 editions in the form of terror tots, Gupps and silurids.

With a slight change to terror tots and the faction change of the silurids/gupps, the cupboard looks a lot barer (possibly because its always had these good options, it didn't get many added in the subsequent releases)

But I would still say that Neverborn are generally faster than Guild are currently, and faster and better at dropping schemes than guild were for most of M2E. (Just because they have a move stat that probably averages 1-2 points more).

So yes, its a problem that many neverborn players aren't used to dealing with, but its not a problem that is unique to neverborn, or is new to this edition

True, we are better than guild, but I don't really feel like that is saying a whole lot. 

To me it is a problem when the extremely sturdy undead faction is beating the glass cannon faction at mobility. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Mobility is a major theme of ressers, but I always assumed that was because they are the least capable of the factions in terms of ranged attacks.

Although Neverborn give them a serious run for the money on that, having a strong melee focus still.

It is also weird that Neverborn are the only faction without leap, which generally feels like a broken ability (almost every model with the ability is very strong). They can snag it cross-faction through Zoraida or Marcus of course.

I posted a while ago about Neverborn just lacking scheme-marker capabilities, and it is a bit of an issue. Although I think Neverborn are focused on the 'they can't scheme if they're dead' plan, but they're not actually better at killing enemy scheme runners than other factions.

[Gloomy]

Your right that Neverborn don't have it as cheap as some other factions. But there's plenty of scheming options I've found when playing them. Neverborn just tend to scheme differently.

Marcus crew is very fast with leaps/flight/deadly pursuit etc. Dreamer has the Daydreams to move other models around, The insidious madness are fast with scatter and coppelius is Mv 7 with Agile and then there's the spider posse. Zoraida has Silurids and the first mate. Versitile you have Vasilisa and wicked doll combo. The Doppleganger has Mv 6 with Don't mind me. They're definitely not the best at it but I think they still do fine.

[extremor]

We might not have access to leap but we do have fly with me, ride with me and a lot of other movement shenenigans(lure, scoop op, Entourage, issue comand, lead nightmare, creep along and many more)

and if you need a lot of scheme markers Lucius is your man. 

[LexLock]

I mean... so do other factions.

What we're missing is an efficient scheme runner or ways of cheating out scheme markers.

Our best generalist option is probably the Black Blood Shaman, which is much better suited to hanging back (6 health + no defenses), handing out focus and growing into a beater.

Also given our general squishiness and reliance on melee we really aren't that fast, anything with a movement trick blows a high move stat out of the water, especially a scheme runner, because they can both place two scheme markers in one turn and freely leave engagements.

Other factions get scheme hacks, we're supposed to be zoomy, where's ours?

[esqulax]

10 minutes ago, LexLock said:

I mean... so do other factions.

What we're missing is an efficient scheme runner or ways of cheating out scheme markers.

Our best generalist option is probably the Black Blood Shaman, which is much better suited to hanging back (6 health + no defenses), handing out focus and growing into a beater.

Also given our general squishiness and reliance on melee we really aren't that fast, anything with a movement trick blows a high move stat out of the water, especially a scheme runner, because they can both place two scheme markers in one turn and freely leave engagements.

Other factions get scheme hacks, we're supposed to be zoomy, where's ours?

I actually think most Neverborn players just need to embrace Lucius more when it comes to throwing out scheme markers. He can definitely do it very effectively, and as a backup in a savage crew Cyclops can also do it somewhat well. 

The problem to me is definitely, as you say, that we lack an efficient scheme runner and that movement tricks are much more effective than the +1 movement we seem to have on a lot of our models.

Though I gotta admit that regarding Black Blood Shamans I am so stuck in the mindset of Pulse focus -> grow into mature, that I hadn't considered them as a possible scheme runner. 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, LexLock said:

Also given our general squishiness and reliance on melee we really aren't that fast, anything with a movement trick blows a high move stat out of the water, especially a scheme runner, because they can both place two scheme markers in o.ne turn and freely leave engagements

There aren't that many models out there that can place 2 scheme markers in a turn, but whilst Neverborn doesn't have leap, it is full of Ride with me and ambush I think I just counted 14 non master models that could drop 2 scheme markers in a turn.  (that's a lot of bonus action movement tricks. Most won't work if engaged, its true but those are 2 different requirements, the fact that leap does both is one of the reasons its so strong ).Several are on expensive models that you often don't count as a scheme runner, but they are there.

And last edition the terror tot was seen as a good scheme runner even though it could not drop 2 markers in a turn.

 

[esqulax]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

There aren't that many models out there that can place 2 scheme markers in a turn, but whilst Neverborn doesn't have leap, it is full of Ride with me and ambush I think I just counted 14 non master models that could drop 2 scheme markers in a turn.  (that's a lost of bonus action movement tricks. Most won't work if engaged, its true but those are 2 different requirements, the fact that leap does both is one of the reasons its so strong ).Several are on expensive models that you often don't count as a scheme runner, but they are there.

And last edition the terror tot was seen as a good scheme runner even though it could not drop 2 markers in a turn.

 

Well I am not necessarily clamoring for something that can drop down several markers in one turn, but the new gaining grounds seem to require speed a lot more than before, and for a faction that is supposedly fast and fragile I just don't see that speed. 

[dzlier]

Was going to mention Coppelius.

Something about Ride/Fly with Me is that it doesn't necessarily come on the scheme runner itself but it can enable other generically fast models to get a head start on scheming. If you hitch a high Mv model along in turn 1 before they activate, they're 6ish inches further up the board before they start their objective run.

And I agree that Wicked Dolls, though I haven't fielded them yet, are probably the best cheap scheme runner because of Creep Along (can similarly get a head start by moving towards a friendly model that already activated) and Stealth, which means the opponent actually needs to go kill them, they can't just pop them at range.

But the thing I agree with the most is that Tots are useless now. They really ought to have Leap or at least Ambush or even Creep Along to regain their place as the Nephilim schemer. Bump their cost if you have to, but they are utterly useless and I would never hire one now, where I would hire 1 or even 2 in 2E. Maybe they were weakened to account for Grow being an always-available tactic now, but honestly as much as I love Grow in 3E, who's having much success growing Tots into anything? They die to nothing, they don't have Flight like the rest of the crew, and their Stat 4, 1/2/4 attack is worthless.

[Nagi21]

9 hours ago, dzlier said:

But the thing I agree with the most is that Tots are useless now. They really ought to have Leap or at least Ambush or even Creep Along to regain their place as the Nephilim schemer. Bump their cost if you have to, but they are utterly useless and I would never hire one now, where I would hire 1 or even 2 in 2E. Maybe they were weakened to account for Grow being an always-available tactic now, but honestly as much as I love Grow in 3E, who's having much success growing Tots into anything? They die to nothing, they don't have Flight like the rest of the crew, and their Stat 4, 1/2/4 attack is worthless.

I've stopped trying to make sense of Wyrd's decisions on NVB, but I have had minor success growing Tots into youngs when facing down a model spam crew like somer or ulix.  Granted those were tots Hayreddin summoned but still, it can happen... but it's just an extra step to youngs.

[esqulax]

11 hours ago, dzlier said:

Was going to mention Coppelius.

Something about Ride/Fly with Me is that it doesn't necessarily come on the scheme runner itself but it can enable other generically fast models to get a head start on scheming. If you hitch a high Mv model along in turn 1 before they activate, they're 6ish inches further up the board before they start their objective run.

And I agree that Wicked Dolls, though I haven't fielded them yet, are probably the best cheap scheme runner because of Creep Along (can similarly get a head start by moving towards a friendly model that already activated) and Stealth, which means the opponent actually needs to go kill them, they can't just pop them at range.

But the thing I agree with the most is that Tots are useless now. They really ought to have Leap or at least Ambush or even Creep Along to regain their place as the Nephilim schemer. Bump their cost if you have to, but they are utterly useless and I would never hire one now, where I would hire 1 or even 2 in 2E. Maybe they were weakened to account for Grow being an always-available tactic now, but honestly as much as I love Grow in 3E, who's having much success growing Tots into anything? They die to nothing, they don't have Flight like the rest of the crew, and their Stat 4, 1/2/4 attack is worthless.

I like Coppelius, but I have had more success running him as a scheme runner hunter rather than a schemer himself.

I remember during the beta when they gave Tots protected in an attempt to fix them. I was pretty bewildered as their problem isn't that they die, but that they do nothing worthwhile while alive. 

[goth]

I like that my models don’t have attributes and abilities on their card that telegraph the reason I’m bringing them strat/scheme-wise.  The extra AP spent dropping a decoy scheme marker with a Grootslang is painful, but the idea is that it’s one of many very mobile models.  Marcus and his henchwoman can push and charge their beasts around, rougarou move at end of turn, lots of creep along in Neverborn crews... yes web markers but also doppleganger and changelings riding the rails via lair markers or making a model incorporeal and fast with Euripides?  I think you’re looking at it wrong because I’m not even starting to dig and Neverborn keywords are overflowing with silly and almost unfair movement shenanigans. Neverborn can be kind of unforgiving and glass cannon, that’s why Jakob Lynch folded and went with Ten Thunders so he too could have a Gorar in the form of Terracotta Warriors... but Sorrows are way better than they used to be - try taking one OOK as a schemer, they are a lot of fun and can jump 17” in a turn then cause a WP duel (which can heal your nightmare schemers for example)...

I think playing Neverborn is like that quote Han Solo has about navigating an asteroid field... fly by the seat of your pants, make your AP count, make meaningful and sometimes risky decisions, if a model’s demise is imminent try to make it a tarpit for them or score points on way down.

...or something like every expensive jumpy-aroundy Neverborn creepie is also a potential schemer lurking for the ideal time to spend their valuable AP to score meager points.

[Regelridderen]

Neverborn is definitely lacking in models like necropunks, false witnesses and other stuff, that make scheming easy and free your beaters to beating. 
 

Then again those models rarely contribute much else, whereas in my Woe, my Sorrow float around on the periphery affecting the game with their auras and Glimpse of Insanity, while doing interacts. My Nightmares pop up to beat the crap out of the opponent and clearing space for scheming - and then Lucius is up for anything involving scheming. 

But it is quite different from most other factions - and sadly a ‘combined’ tactic seems to be more efficient in general, or plain simpler. 

[dzlier]

9 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I've stopped trying to make sense of Wyrd's decisions on NVB, but I have had minor success growing Tots into youngs when facing down a model spam crew like somer or ulix.  Granted those were tots Hayreddin summoned but still, it can happen... but it's just an extra step to youngs.

The only time I've grown a Tot was one I spawned from a Desolation Engine. I think the reason for that is that it eats the Corpse Marker from the killed model right away on it's first turn, when it's Slow anyway so won't be doing much else.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, goth said:

 

...or something like every expensive jumpy-aroundy Neverborn creepie is also a potential schemer lurking for the ideal time to spend their valuable AP to score meager points.

I think regardless of faction or crew, you have to treat every (significant) model as a potential scheme runner when needed.

I couldn't count how many times Molly's last turn has been move, move, interact. Or how many times I've used a Dead Rider to scheme on turn 5.

Also worth noting the key question is: do Neverborn win a lot? And I think they're a dominant force in Russia (with dual masters being allowed), so clearly they're able to score points somehow.

[Nagi21]

23 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also worth noting the key question is: do Neverborn win a lot? And I think they're a dominant force in Russia (with dual masters being allowed), so clearly they're able to score points somehow.

I honestly couldn't tell you.  My meta has 3 NVB players and none of them have cracked top 10 recently in any tournaments that I can recall.  There was Kharnage out of Texas with LVO, but A) that was before the IR and Nekima nerfs, and 2) it's pretty well noted that he's an insanely good player so that might be an outlier.  People keep telling me we're good but I'm only seeing moderate success when people do something like Dreamer/Zoraida.  I haven't heard anything post GG1 though.

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

I honestly couldn't tell you.  My meta has 3 NVB players and none of them have cracked top 10 recently in any tournaments that I can recall.  There was Kharnage out of Texas with LVO, but A) that was before the IR and Nekima nerfs, and 2) it's pretty well noted that he's an insanely good player so that might be an outlier.  People keep telling me we're good but I'm only seeing moderate success when people do something like Dreamer/Zoraida.  I haven't heard anything post GG1 though.

Yeah, I think post GG1 data is going to be scarce (other than from Vassal). And even that we're so slow on vassal we can't complete 35 stone games yet.

Also even if Neverborn DO do well in tournaments, I suspect it is a case of "these specific masters appear in the rankings" rather than a wide array of masters appearing (like TT and Ressers seem to have quite a good variety in tournament postings over the last year, from Seamus to McMourning to Schtook to Molly and even to Reva).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, but also can't forget that part of it will come down to tournament structure.

Neverborn's most powerful master, Dreamer, is extremely difficult to play in tournaments for being so slow. Even if the Dreamer player is fast, the huge number of models and end-game power of Dreamer means opponents may be playing slowly (having to take extra time to think through all their options).

[esqulax]

On 5/8/2020 at 11:08 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, I think post GG1 data is going to be scarce (other than from Vassal). And even that we're so slow on vassal we can't complete 35 stone games yet.

Also even if Neverborn DO do well in tournaments, I suspect it is a case of "these specific masters appear in the rankings" rather than a wide array of masters appearing (like TT and Ressers seem to have quite a good variety in tournament postings over the last year, from Seamus to McMourning to Schtook to Molly and even to Reva).

Slightly off topic, but I am pretty jealous of ressers. Reva was the only master in the faction that I didn't think was extremely solid and she just got buffed. I wish Neverborn were even close to having that amount of internal balance.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 11:10 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, but also can't forget that part of it will come down to tournament structure.

Neverborn's most powerful master, Dreamer, is extremely difficult to play in tournaments for being so slow. Even if the Dreamer player is fast, the huge number of models and end-game power of Dreamer means opponents may be playing slowly (having to take extra time to think through all their options).

I agree fully. You really need to play masters with an explosive play style in tournaments, which is a shame because it excludes masters that might otherwise be very strong. 

[extremor]

Note: I don‘t habe much experience regarding turnaments. 
In my last few games with Lucius and Puppet Hinamatsu my most efficient schemeteam were Vasilisa, effigy and wicked doll. These three bring some high mobility with em. Vasilisa handing out +1MV and scoop up the effigy. The effigy then lures 2 of my Models forward just to be followed by the doll and creep along. Thats quite some movement.

and on Top of that vasilisa and all other Puppet Hand out staggered at the beginning of each Turn. That is quite good stopping your Opponent 

 

e. G. In a Dreamer Crew you could move Teddy up next to your opponent first Turn and Vasilisa can Heal him quite well. The effigy himself is also quite tough for 4ss. And of it dies, just summon some stiched or doll... 

[esqulax]

On 5/15/2020 at 7:35 AM, extremor said:

Note: I don‘t habe much experience regarding turnaments. 
In my last few games with Lucius and Puppet Hinamatsu my most efficient schemeteam were Vasilisa, effigy and wicked doll. These three bring some high mobility with em. Vasilisa handing out +1MV and scoop up the effigy. The effigy then lures 2 of my Models forward just to be followed by the doll and creep along. Thats quite some movement.

and on Top of that vasilisa and all other Puppet Hand out staggered at the beginning of each Turn. That is quite good stopping your Opponent 

 

e. G. In a Dreamer Crew you could move Teddy up next to your opponent first Turn and Vasilisa can Heal him quite well. The effigy himself is also quite tough for 4ss. And of it dies, just summon some stiched or doll... 

That is true, although the Effigy needs 8s to lure, so it isn't exactly free 

[extremor]

First Turn I like spending an 8 in exchange for 5 or 6 Inches. But of course it depends on strats n schemes. 
I just wanted to point out we may have to think outside the box as for it took me some Time to see the effigy as an mobility thingy. It doesnt shout out loud how good it is but it definitely had an important impact on quite a lot of my Games. Esp since starting to play Hinamatsu as a leader and getting the effigy for free.