Anyone else think Seamus needs a nerf?

[Maniacal_cackle]

After playing with him a bit on Vassal, seriously feels like Seamus needs a nerf!

He can get basically anywhere on the table for many tables (and I have yet to take him with the Emissary). For a single action, he can move 12". I just did Symbols of Authority on corner deployment, and he was simultaneously threatening 2-3 symbol markers at all times by himself. Ordinarily your crew needs to work together to achieve that sort of pressure, but he can just be anywhere he wants. Feels seriously ridiculous to do something like:

• Turn 1: double secret passageway into position on the other side of the board.
• Turn 2: in position for literally anything.

It's impossible to guard every symbol while advancing your own crew (which is fine normally, as an enemy crew working together should take symbols). But with Seamus, I feel like he is just putting pressure everywhere and anywhere by himself - the rest of the crew is just gravy.

Then throw on top of that his other sources of movement. At one point my opponent destroyed the terrain that Seamus was going to teleport to. So he teleported to another bit of terrain, walked, walked, and snagged the target symbol anyway. 20" and having an action to spare is extremely common. Four actions is just hyper-mobile.

And finally, his totem can then teleport him across the board! LOVE the design of this, but combined with everything else... This Master is just too strong.

Oh, and I guess he has a cannon he carries in his pocket... Honestly people complain about his shooting attack, but I think it is about right. You need a bit of setup to make it work (especially getting focus on him, as he hates to spare an action to focus). So while this is the thing that most people complain about, I personally think it is fine.

So what would I like to see (admittedly with very little Redchapel experience).

• Worse mobility for Seamus (make Secret Passage into 'once a turn' only, noting he can still do it twice with Cause for Celebration).
  • This will mean that he has to rely on the Copycat to get out of trouble once he teleports himself into trouble, creating a narrow window for the enemy to hit him. Or if he can get proper setup for a corpse marker, he can still teleport out.
• Buff mobility of Madame Sybelle and Belles.
  • Perhaps give Belles a swift action/onslaught trigger on their lures.
  • Then give Madame Sybelle "Lady of the house: as long as this model is not engaged, friendly Redchapel Minions within 6 add a mask to their duels.

The main problem with the Belles is they want to use lure to move other models, but this is inefficient (you use an AP to move a model, but you may also have to cheat a card... AND you need to position correctly). Adding a swift action/onslaught trigger to the lure would mean that you can actually generate efficiency with the setup. Giving Madame a way to hand out the  mask to the duels ensures you can actually get the crew working together to achieve that efficiency. Making it turn off when Sybelle is engaged means that there is counterplay for the opponent (just in case double lures ends up being powerful... Which it probably would be 😜 )

What do people think? Often we talk about Redchapel buffs, but they lack a bit of context: Seamus is kinda insane. If the crew gets buffed, the strongest master in Ressers might have a strong crew behind him as well...

[dannydb]

Seamus can seem a bit op if he's able to delete one model a turn, the issues is, he's an incredibly card hungry master which means there is a distinct lack of resources left for other members of his crew. 

to teleport 4 times that is 4 7s that are needed, now yes on average you should be able to top deck 2 of them, but thats still losing 2 7+s from your hand to do this. 

now as said if there is no terrain where he needs to get to, then yes the carrion emmy can make terrain their, however again its an 8+ which is enough high card from your deck or discard. 

if your doing the general attack run of teleport, focus, shoot, teleport then in theory your going to need 2 7+s and then two severe, one to Guarantee your getting the hit with your hand cannon and one to do max damage, thats a hugely draining amount of resources and even with whisper not Guaranteed.

in addition to this seamus offers next to no field presenance, he offers no support to the rest of his crew and if caught by a beater is going to be coming out of it worse for wears.

 

yes he's probibly one of the most mobile and able to do the most damage as a master in the game. 

 

however he's also the most inconsistent and im sure there are a number of seamus players who leave him achieving next to nothing on some terms as cards are needed else where or he wispers in to a black joker or a bunch of weaks he cant get round  

[Maniacal_cackle]

He can be card hungry, sure, but he doesn't have to be.

I agree the shooting run is card-heavy, and I don't think his delete a model a turn is the problem. But he is pretty darn versatile/consistent. Turn one you're happy to spend 2-4 cards getting him into position (decreasing your need for it on future turns).

On future turns, you don't have to spam it (though it is nice that you can). With the Whisper, you can plan your turn perfectly. Even if you're restricted to one secret passage + 2 walk actions, that's 22" plus an action. That's quite a bit of movement.

True, he can get exposed to danger, but that's why the copycat design is so great - it can just teleport him away any time he is not in a good spot.

Currently the floor is using secret passageway maybe once in a turn, whereas it feels more like that should be the ceiling - once is good enough (barring celebration shenanigans).

[Nikshe]

No, he is not.

He is strong mobile glass-cannon. He will fail against other mobile good Wp crews just because his own Keyword is a garbage. Try to run him against Von Schtook or Yan Lo and see.
He can be nerfed if his crew will got a solid buff. There should be full Keyword reworking.

[Cleezy]

Seamus isn't OP and while it is your only perspective you shouldn't be basing it on the experiences you are having with him.

He is mobile and he has the ability to remove weaker models because you can dictate the damage. If he comes up against SS using models, high defence and armour he struggles. In regards to the mobility I use that to support the models I have opted to take for scheming as I don't want my master to be using AP heavily for schemes.

His crew can be card hungry depending how you use them, making sure to hit the TNs needed for the movement shenanigans in his keyword models etc. but it is made up partly for how efficient those models can be elsewhere.

As others have said he can be quite easy to put down with a little bit of misplay but generally I find he is durable enough. IMO he is fine and with GGS1 his keyword is much more viable in many strategies but it is definitely a bit early to be calling for a nerf.

[LexLock]

You can't balance a master using its crew in a game like malifaux. Saying that Seamus is fine because his keyword is weak and doesn't have much synergy with him is ignoring the plethora of great versatile models in Ressurs.

You can build a Seamus crew with no Redchapel models other than him and his totem, in fact models like The Carrion Emissary and Gravediggers have great synergy with him that his keyword mostly lacks.

At 6ss Necropunks are still easily some of the best scheme runners in the game (and if your complaint is that Von Schtook can get more for less, get in line) and Bone Piles can do a pretty convincing pre-nerf Soulstone Miner impression with some setup.

Obviously Seamus's keyword is lacklustre, but if we're thinking competitively instead of thematically then Redchapel being bad doesn't necessarily mean Seamus is.

[Gloomy]

You really can't call for a nerf after playing him a few times on Vassal. He's very good yes, but as someone who's played him and played against him there's plenty you can do to stop his shenanigans. Like many Master's in Malifaux if he's left unchecked he can wreak havoc.

He's squishy. Def 4. A ruthless beater will cause him a lot of problems. The first time he switches places with copycat, kill the copycat. That will severely limit his manoeuvrability. Once he's wounded and CCK is dead the Seamus player will have to think carefully about where to back alley. Give him slow or stunned. There's plenty of good counter picks out there.

[Trample]

I enjoy playing Seamus quite a bit and he certainly can be powerful, but when I have him on the table I always feel a bit short on cards. To do what I often want to do, which is shoot once with focus and an additional time without, from a location of my choosing, I need a lot of cards. I needed a 4 of tomes to get the focus from the nurse (although he can do it himself). I need an 8 to get my Mindless Zombie out from the Emissary. I need a 7 to Secret Passage to my shooting spot. Now I need to hit. I'm focused,  so have an advantage but my opponent knows what is coming a very likely saved a card for this. I may very well have to cheat a severe to hit. Now I have to hope I have a severe left to actually get that high damage and remove a model from the table. That's a potential of 5 cards to set up a single shot with Seamus in a crew that really doesn't have any card draw (well, Seamus likely has the Whisper). 

With the Whisper too, it is probably just me, but I seem to see a BJ, 5, and 6 with Seamus when I'm using it and you're wondering what the hell you're going to do with Seamus now! I never have that problem with the Whisper on Von Schtook for some reason. 

The last time I played Seamus in a tournament this kind of thing played out over the first two turns where I just couldn't get the cards to accomplish all of that and so Seamus killed nothing until turn 3. That's not a sustainable path to victory for Seamus. When his cards are there he can be a powerhouse, but he is too card dependent to be reliable in my opinion. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't think his damage is a big deal. I think it is probably pretty reasonable (and possibly outclassed by things like Molly's card draw + tons of beaters).

However, mobility is one of the most powerful things in the game, and Seamus is just on a different level to almost anything else. If all he could do is his damage trick + movement, it'd not be a big deal. But at any given time he has tons of options:

• Short on useful cards? Use his mobility to scheme.
• Got some cards handy? Blast away an enemy beater.
• Enemy schemer wanders slightly away from the crew? Blow it out of the sky.

He just feels so insanely versatile. I'll reserve full judgement until I've played more games with him, but it does seem pretty crazy. Archie and Shenlong are good examples of mobility clearly being ridiculously powerful; I wouldn't be surprised if Seamus is next on the chopping block (although I'd hope they buff his crew if so). In particular, the first turn double or triple teleport is feeling just a bit too much to me. He is then so well set up for the rest of the game.

And sure, eventually you can pin him down. But if they're spending a good chunk of resources chasing down such a mobile master (eliminating the copycat, etc), then the rest of the crew is probably off winning the game.

[Graf]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:52 AM, LexLock said:

You can't balance a master using its crew in a game like malifaux. Saying that Seamus is fine because his keyword is weak and doesn't have much synergy with him is ignoring the plethora of great versatile models in Ressurs.

I agree and disagree at the same time. A master from a faction with good versatile models can't be balanced only by a weaker crew *fully*. But it still is an important factor. Being forced to use only versatile models is a limiting factor. Other masters have more potential picks for their list and therefore can be stronger overall, so they can be played into more strats, schemes and/or match-ups.

 

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But at any given time he has tons of options:

• Short on useful cards? Use his mobility to scheme.
• Got some cards handy? Blast away an enemy beater.
• Enemy schemer wanders slightly away from the crew? Blow it out of the sky.

He just feels so insanely versatile.

First off, I've never piloted him myself, only seen him on the table.

I think he falls into the high skill cap design. Not only for the one piloting him but also for those playing against him. A skilled Seamus player will grind an unexperienced one into dust. His efficiency will drop noticeable if the pilot makes mistakes and/or especially the opponent knows what to do against him. While this is true in general, it's even more pronounced for Seamus.

Big part of that is imho: while he has a great toolkit, you have to choose a single option each turn. The right one at the right time. If you don't, it can go downhill very quickly. 

If both player's skill is what is being tested the most, I think it's good game design. Maybe the issue lies for the biggest part of your first impression within one word: "feels"? 

[NoahScape]

Seamus doesn't automatically delete a model per turn, and for what he does he needs a lot of cards typically. His crew needs a bump, hes fine for the most part. 

[ShinChan]

17 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Seamus doesn't automatically delete a model per turn, and for what he does he needs a lot of cards typically. His crew needs a bump, hes fine for the most part. 

Usually, Seamus deletes a no SS user each activation that doesn't have HtK, unless he needs to score points in other way. He doesn't need many cards, he just needs a 7 or any suit and 1 severe. That is not close to be a lot of cards.

He can start doing it in turn 1, with a 23" thread range. Concentrate + Secret Passage + .50 Flintlock.

Does he needs a nerf? I don't think so, but saying that he requires a "lots of cards" is a lie. If anything I would put a range to the Copycat Killer Mistaken Identity, so it wouldn't be that "free" for Seamus to go back to safety.

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Usually, Seamus deletes a no SS user each activation that doesn't have HtK, unless he needs to score points in other way. He doesn't need many cards, he just needs a 7 or any suit and 1 severe. That is not close to be a lot of cards.

He can start doing it in turn 1, with a 23" thread range. Concentrate + Secret Passage + .50 Flintlock.

Does he needs a nerf? I don't think so, but saying that he requires a "lots of cards" is a lie. If anything I would put a range to the Copycat Killer Mistaken Identity, so it wouldn't be that "free" for Seamus to go back to safety.

Whilst that's sort of true, it does assume that the opponent doesn't try and defend. If the Seamus hand is low it may well be worth cheating your df. St 6 isn't all that high, and if they only have 1 severe and have to cheat it to hit (and need to beat your total, as just tying the total will still have a negative damage flip) , then they're down to the luck of the deck to get a severe damage.  That is now looking at possibly the best half of his hand spent to remove that model (I like to think of an average hand as 2 weak, 2 moderate and 2 severe so you've potentially used up your top 3 cards to do this). Granted that assumes you are having to cheat each of those flips, but if I'm planning an important action, I try and plan to assume the worst.  (I'd also base his ideal target more on cost. He is going to struggle to kill a model with more than 8 wounds,  so those models around 8ss or higher are probably going to be safe from a single shot).

 

[ShinChan]

53 minutes ago, Adran said:

Whilst that's sort of true, it does assume that the opponent doesn't try and defend. If the Seamus hand is low it may well be worth cheating your df. St 6 isn't all that high, and if they only have 1 severe and have to cheat it to hit (and need to beat your total, as just tying the total will still have a negative damage flip) , then they're down to the luck of the deck to get a severe damage.  That is now looking at possibly the best half of his hand spent to remove that model (I like to think of an average hand as 2 weak, 2 moderate and 2 severe so you've potentially used up your top 3 cards to do this). Granted that assumes you are having to cheat each of those flips, but if I'm planning an important action, I try and plan to assume the worst.  (I'd also base his ideal target more on cost. He is going to struggle to kill a model with more than 8 wounds,  so those models around 8ss or higher are probably going to be safe from a single shot).

 

I was taking into account The Whisper, which seems (almost) mandatory in Seamus. If you manage to kill 4 models during the game with Seamus, you can consider it a free upgrade (2ss = 4 cards cycled).

I didn't say it was easy to get the maximum 8 damage, but with Stat 6, you're over the defense of most models that have 8 or less wounds + knowing which are going to be your top 3 cards, you probably won't even have to cheat the attack or the secret passage.

But IMHO I don't consider that investing a lot of cards.