The case for Lelu

[dzlier]

I originally wrote this out in response to someone in the Facebook Neverborn group asking why I take Lelu, but wanted to spur further discussion. What do you all think?

He's deceptively difficult to kill with Df 6 and four sources of healing (Regen, Twin Soul, Drink Blood, Grim Feast).

I use them for 2 things mainly: card drawing and a surprising amount of ping damage.

The two of them together are an awesome card engine. From their bonus actions, you're drawing 3 (discarding 1), triggering Black Blood twice in the process. Add Ancient Pacts and now you're drawing 5 cards every turn. Granted that's 16 stones, but all that card draw is automatic or from Bonus Actions, it's not eating into their Actions. 

Then there's ping damage.

Lelu's damage track looks like a 2/3/4 at first, but it has built-in Infect which makes it 3/4/5 and potentially 4/5/6 if you get another Crow (and don't need to heal with Drink Blood). These triggers are on Ram and Crow, neither of which have much competition within the crew for other model's actions, as the crew is mostly Mask-hungry.

Lelu's Activation: Charge and melee (either Healing or using Infect), then Masochistic Thoughts, then Blood for Blood to ping BB and draw cards. End of Activation, ping BB again from MT and draw a card from Pact.

Lilitu's Activation: Position and Lure someone into Lelu (if necessary). Otherwise, move up next to Lelu to potentially trigger MT for another BB, and Attack to give Distracted (to protect her Df 4). Sadistic Glee on Lelu to ping BB again and draw a card. End of Activation, draw another card and maybe ping BB again.

So in total that's:

* Net gain 4 cards
* 3-4 irresistable BB ping damage (per model within range of Lelu)
* 1-2 Poison ping damage
* 1 2/3/4 attack from Lelu, possibly one 2/2/3 from Lilitu.

To keep Lelu alive, it's useful to actually get a point or two of damage on Lilitu, who would normally be protected, because then her Regen is also healing Lelu (if she doesn't heal from Regen, then Lelu doesn't either). And Lelu is healing her as well obviously, which is why I want to have both and not just do this stuff with Lilitu and a Young or something.

Finally, somewhere around late-mid-game, Lelu has probably been around enough corpses to Grow into a Mature (don't forget he loses the Ancient Pact upgrade though).

One last thing, if at all possible I try to make sure Hayreddin is around and has activated Life from Blood. That way, I can time out a BB ping to summon a Terror Tot for my trouble. And oh hey, he can also use Black Blood Postule (twice for one Action with a 5Mask+5) to trigger even more irresistable BB pings and increase the odds of that Tot coming out. And Life From Blood doesn't prevent the Corpse marker from dropping, so the Tot can use Grim Feast to get a Grow Token right away on the turn while it's Slow.

Also if he's close enough, Lelu and Lilitu are healing each other when their Black Blood is triggered on enemy turns. For this reason, I'll have one strike team of Hayreddin/Lelu/Lilitu go up one flank, and then I'll pair Nekima with 1-2 Young/BBS(->Mature) up the other flank.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, dzlier said:

 

Lelu's damage track looks like a 2/3/4 at first, but it has built-in Infect which makes it 3/4/5 and potentially 4/5/6 if you get another Crow (and don't need to heal with Drink Blood). These triggers are on Ram and Crow, neither of which have much competition within the crew for other model's actions, as the crew is mostly Mask-hungry.

 

I don't know the crew, but in general having a model that acts as an outlet to use those suits you wouldn't otherwise care about is a major boon!

You have to know a crew inside and out, but my gameplay 'leveled up' when I got on top of this. Cool to hear this insight for Nekima's crew!

[Nagi21]

Couple things to mention:

- His damage doesn't go from 2/3/4 to either of those.  His damage is still 2/3/4 with poison 1 or 2, which doesn't happen until end of turn which means a lot of things can happen to that "damage".  Additionally he doesn't get more than one poison damage at the end of the turn unless you hit two attacks with an extra crow on both.

- Ancient pact is insanely risky due to the lack of df other than it being 6 instead of 5 for the crew, particularly on a model that wants to be up and fighting.  It's possible on Lelu but Lelu is just not worth the cost.

- To the above point, sans upgrade, both of them are worth 7ss... the same as a young nephilim.  Youngs have flight, the same regen, one less defense, and a built in positive on their attacks AND onslaught.  They are better than Lelu in a fight, and more mobile to be able to get into one.  I can see summoning a lelu if you get tots off, but the big issue with the twins is the fact their outclassed in their own weight class.

[Passenty]

The twins are garbage. After you do the zero with Lelu to trigger BB you are at 6hp so you die in one activation, lilitu is even worst no stuff to do except for lure (which is much worse then it was in 2e)  and bad defensive stats. And no stat 7 dosent help when your action is bad (if you want to lure somebody pay extra for hinamatsu or doppelganger they do SO much more). More over the cost of 7 is really prohibitive for such narrow models when you get good models(youngs) in the same keyword so they are never worth opportunity cost. As most of the crew is combination of matures/shaman/youngs the twins also seem very slow in comparison to the ultra fast crew. They are never competetive choice - and no lelu is not a "tech" against armor to be a tech you either dont need to be close or be able to survive where you are needed.

[dzlier]

On 4/18/2020 at 3:21 AM, Nagi21 said:

Couple things to mention:

- His damage doesn't go from 2/3/4 to either of those.  His damage is still 2/3/4 with poison 1 or 2, which doesn't happen until end of turn which means a lot of things can happen to that "damage".  Additionally he doesn't get more than one poison damage at the end of the turn unless you hit two attacks with an extra crow on both.

- Ancient pact is insanely risky due to the lack of df other than it being 6 instead of 5 for the crew, particularly on a model that wants to be up and fighting.  It's possible on Lelu but Lelu is just not worth the cost.

- To the above point, sans upgrade, both of them are worth 7ss... the same as a young nephilim.  Youngs have flight, the same regen, one less defense, and a built in positive on their attacks AND onslaught.  They are better than Lelu in a fight, and more mobile to be able to get into one.  I can see summoning a lelu if you get tots off, but the big issue with the twins is the fact their outclassed in their own weight class.

That's fair, I was using shorthand for the damage track/poison damage the same way I hear competitive players talk about it in podcasts, but you're right the damage could go away before then. And poison 2 does still technically cause 2 damage over 2 turns, but in all likelihood the model that you put it on should hopefully be dead before then if it's up in melee with you, so the second poison doesn't count for much.

Sure the upgrade is risky, and you'd have to play them accordingly. I wouldn't send them into a fight with something much bigger than him, and like I said I would keep Hayreddin and Lilitu close to hopefully get some healing off in between hits. I think they make a good strike team against the opponent's B-group, so to speak. While Nekima and the Mature(s) deal with the primary threat, HR/L/L can be holding down a flank.

Youngs are definitely better on paper I agree, but I maintain there are circumstances where the twins are worth taking as well. Flight is great, but on a board with less terrain its value isn't as dramatic. 

Also, as a not-very-competitive player who maybe doesn't have the best hand management yet, I find all the card draw to be really invaluable. And HR's life from blood is really the only source of new summons in the crew if you're talking about spare Tots, and the twins are one of the best tools for really getting the exact timing right on a BB ping.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also worth noting early card draw is pretty powerful.

If you get card draw for the first two turns, you're well set up to gain an advantage that snowballs the game. Losing the card draw engines isn't as big a deal later on.

[Nagi21]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also worth noting early card draw is pretty powerful.

If you get card draw for the first two turns, you're well set up to gain an advantage that snowballs the game. Losing the card draw engines isn't as big a deal later on.

It's still too much investment for just card draw.  Lelu gets you draw 2 keep one and then just draw one, and that requires 9 stones.  There's no situation i'd want 2 cards over 9 stones.

[dzlier]

15 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

It's still too much investment for just card draw.  Lelu gets you draw 2 keep one and then just draw one, and that requires 9 stones.  There's no situation i'd want 2 cards over 9 stones.

It's not 2 cards though, it's 2 cards every turn.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, dzlier said:

It's not 2 cards though, it's 2 cards every turn.

It is also a significant model that can do useful things.

Plus, if they're spending AP killing your twins, they're not spending AP killing the mature, etc. That are probably smashing them.

That said I have no idea whether the models are worthwhile. But just feel like key factors are being dismissed out of hand.

(Although I know the general vibe ATM is nephilim is underpowered and don't want to dispute the twins might be the worst end of an underpowered crew).

[dzlier]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

don't want to dispute the twins might be the worst end of an underpowered crew

Yeah they probably are, but I like them and I find them useful. You're definitely not just spending 9 stones just for the 2 cards, they are also doing all that other stuff.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, dzlier said:

Yeah they probably are, but I like them and I find them useful. You're definitely not just spending 9 stones just for the 2 cards, they are also doing all that other stuff.

I think there is a lot to be said for fielding models that are playable but not competitive. Maybe the twins fit into that category!

Great for casual games

[Hawkoon]

I think the twins are often underrated, but if I had to choose i'd almost always take young, shaman or mature instead...

[Gaston]

I think what works against Lelu is that he has a specific role versus a Young which has a generalist role (and is thus a more attractive hire on the whole).

For me, Lelu has been a source of indirect damage, crowd control, and summoning.

Consider that Masochistic Thoughts and Blood for Blood have no targeting requirements, allowing you to sidestep undesirable defensive triggers, negatives to hit, Terrifying, etc. Additionally, he is an enabler to counter HtK models by giving your entire crew a bubble of Blood for Blood (via Masochistic Thoughts). That ability has been very useful for me as a finisher on Nekima, when you just couldn't get the job done otherwise (last game it finished a Pigapult and Alphonese for example). If you decide to attach IR to him, then you get the Blade Rush, BfB, and MT for 3 damage without interacting with your opponent. This can also be useful for tackling armor, as these are all 1 damage pings, so they circumvent it. If he does hit, then he'll do his 1 weak damage (vs Armor +2 for instance), and poison, so 5 'ping' damage overall, but only needing to hit once. 

Crowd control is fairly self explanatory--all of this ping damage from the two main abilities is in an aura, so the more models you get with it, the higher the payoff. Likewise for Hayreddin Tot summoning, Lelu does a whole lot of Black Blood spraying, increasing the chance of making some adorable Cherubs. 

So, niche? Absolutely. Has glaring weaknesses? Sure. Useless? Hardly, but you do have to have a plan, targeted match ups, and he relies on other models to shine. 

 

[Morgan Vening]

14 hours ago, Gaston said:

I think what works against Lelu is that he has a specific role versus a Young which has a generalist role (and is thus a more attractive hire on the whole).

For me, Lelu has been a source of indirect damage, crowd control, and summoning.

Consider that Masochistic Thoughts and Blood for Blood have no targeting requirements, allowing you to sidestep undesirable defensive triggers, negatives to hit, Terrifying, etc. Additionally, he is an enabler to counter HtK models by giving your entire crew a bubble of Blood for Blood (via Masochistic Thoughts). That ability has been very useful for me as a finisher on Nekima, when you just couldn't get the job done otherwise (last game it finished a Pigapult and Alphonese for example). If you decide to attach IR to him, then you get the Blade Rush, BfB, and MT for 3 damage without interacting with your opponent. This can also be useful for tackling armor, as these are all 1 damage pings, so they circumvent it. If he does hit, then he'll do his 1 weak damage (vs Armor +2 for instance), and poison, so 5 'ping' damage overall, but only needing to hit once. 

Crowd control is fairly self explanatory--all of this ping damage from the two main abilities is in an aura, so the more models you get with it, the higher the payoff. Likewise for Hayreddin Tot summoning, Lelu does a whole lot of Black Blood spraying, increasing the chance of making some adorable Cherubs. 

So, niche? Absolutely. Has glaring weaknesses? Sure. Useless? Hardly, but you do have to have a plan, targeted match ups, and he relies on other models to shine. 

The problem I have with him, especially with the BfB/MT stuff, is he's a wet paper bag defensively. If you can get him into position against a perfect counter crew, OK. But getting him into position with nothing but Df and Mv6 to get him there and keep him alive is a hard ask. I mean, those are nice stats, but getting him into position makes it hard to pull off with any kind of reliability, and without just straight conceding a 7SS model as a casualty.

I think he needs just some minor tweak to his survivability to make him useful. Armor would probably be too much, but I think H2W fits thematically (he's built up a resistance to pain), or even just +1 Health.

Or an ability or trigger that allows him to heal once per activation if he damages himself. Or just straight up give him an additional Regen that applies at end of activation, and he's at least a little more useful in his Wonder Twins role.

[Thatguy]

I'm surprised people are so down on them. I'm tempted to take two sets of twins for that sweet Draw 6 keep 4 a turn.  

[Kharnage]

29 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I'm surprised people are so down on them. I'm tempted to take two sets of twins for that sweet Draw 6 keep 4 a turn.  

Flight is a pretty big deal, a deal they're not in on, and also they're squishballs, even by Nephilim standards. Having great cards doesn't matter if I have to punch df 4 to watch Lilitu explode. If you're fighting a bunch of 1/2/3 or 2/3/4 tracks, it could work, but I've never seen anyone just try and tickle people to death. 

[Ogid]

11 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I'm surprised people are so down on them. I'm tempted to take two sets of twins for that sweet Draw 6 keep 4 a turn.  

It's not the first time I see this conversation in the subforum. Imho a lonely Lelu might be worth it in some lists if you need the ping damage/card draw, but not the twins and god lord not 2 set of those (28SS lol, just pick Zoraida and 2 BBS instead, way better way to expend the resources imo). Those 2 models and the tot need a full rework/some good buffs imo. In fact I think I opened a thread about it not that long ago in case you are curious:

10 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Flight is a pretty big deal, a deal they're not in on, and also they're squishballs, even by Nephilim standards. Having great cards doesn't matter if I have to punch df 4 to watch Lilitu explode. If you're fighting a bunch of 1/2/3 or 2/3/4 tracks, it could work, but I've never seen anyone just try and tickle people to death.

And also for how their healing works, the other player just have to focus one down to deny it (no overflow healing is transfered).