Jump to content

The Mistakes and Misconceptions you make.


Regelridderen

Recommended Posts

Sometimes you just have the wrong idea about what a model is supposed to do, and the game disagrees, sadly in these arguments the game always wins.

So I thought, we might need a little thread on, what not to do with our models, here's my experiences :

CARVER I love this creepy straw man, however I really often want him to be another Teddy, and demand that he can focus a ton of damage into annihilating one model. He can't, and he will quite often turn out to be a drain your soulstone cache, when you send him up against another beater. Instead this guy is great as a tarpit and to send into the midst of a bubble crew. Draw Essence is his thing, as he slowly drains the bubble of life and replenishes his stamina. Another fantastic use is the anti-scheming Up in Flames trigger on his Breath of Fire - and again another good tool against crowds, particularly as it can be used regardless of being engaged. His shears might look tempting - but 2 min3 attacks really isn't up to par for a ten stone model, but the few times when 'dora can give him an extra ram and Candy can give him Fast, he can be quite a terror, but that's just too much of a trick.

THE HOODED RIDER Whenever I pay 11 stones for this guy, my immediate response is to make good use of his Mv7 and send him right up in the face of the enemy, which rarely works for anyone else but the enemy. He needs to hold back and bide his time to build up some masks, and let someone else draw in the crowd, before you can unleash his wrath. It might seem a waste to use an 11 stone enforcer for scheming, but its an even bigger waste to use him as cannonfodder and distraction – to me this sounds like great advice, but I never seem to heed it myself.

BABY KADE You're looking at a Stat7 Carving Knife with Execute and think, this little baby is going to be a really bad boy – He won't. Kade isn't the murder machine I want him to be. But I get some really fantastic use out of him, when using him as utility for moving other models via Where's Teddy? and Lure. Then when he suddenly finds himself in the perfect position, he can hit the enemy - and hit above his pay grade, but he shouldn't be your main line of attack. Finally, you should never forget his ability to heal Teddy and himself, those 4 points every turn is crucial – in particular for allowing Teddy to hit the enemy lines relatively unscathed to start doing his thing. The funny thing is, when you start looking at Kade as a utility piece, he will quite often surprise you (and your opponent) with his propensity for violence.

PANDORA and CANDY these little girls are great for controlling an area of the board, but they're really abysmal at denying it. Unlike most other models in the game, they haven't got an engagement range, so they're unable to hold opponents engaged, and they're unable to keep opponents from Interact. The difference might be subtle, and it'll rarely be relevant, but when it is, you feel like, you're caught with your pants down and bending to pick up a bar of soap.

LORD CHOMPY You look at the guy, and think this guy is supposed to bring the pain. he's a big henchman, and he ought to be able to handle himself, but he really isn't – that is unless he finds some lone scheme runner to chomp on. As with Carver, two attacks at min3 with nothing but a little Terrifying to protect him isn't much. His best defensive asset is actually his model, opponents seem more afraid of him, than his stats actually warrants. So using him as a spearhead for your attack often leaves you chomp-less. I'm looking more to him for striking the final blow after teleporting in from an odd angle, maybe stoning for an Execute trigger, should the opportunity present itself, leave the minion nightmares to take the blows, they're armored, incorporeal and dispensable, they're meant for that sort of thing.

-

So what are your experience with these, and what models have surprised you in their role?

 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd agree with most of this but I think you're underestimating, or misplaying, Carver's role as a main attacker with 4/4/6 damage in a pandora crew.  While it does require investment, Carver can easily remove a model from the game if he's setup with Dora and Candy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

I'd agree with most of this but I think you're underestimating, or misplaying, Carver's role as a main attacker with 4/4/6 damage in a pandora crew.  While it does require investment, Carver can easily remove a model from the game if he's setup with Dora and Candy.

Not intended, Carver can definitely have his moments. Trouble is, if you want a min4 3attack Carver, you need to spend 1 ‘Dora action, and 1 Candy action, while making sure that Carver himself doesn’t go down (or get stunned) in that time. Doing the math, that effort will yield 6 damage (while hurting Carver for 2) and the question is whether ‘Dora and Candy wouldn’t be able to cause 6 points of damage if they spent their actions on themselves rather than channeling through Carver.

Another point is, Carver can do 12-18 damage boosted in this way, while an unboosted Teddy alone is capable of dishing out 9-18, so action efficiency-wise Teddy is just a better choice in that role. So I look to the shears more as an opportune trick, rather than a strategy to pursue.

That’s why, I’m looking more to Carvers ‘crowd control’ capabilities. That have the added bonus of being less taxing on your hand - leaving your high cards to spend for your other models. 

-

Of course this is all general and the game is very specific and match up dependent. So I’d love to hear, when/why you decide to focus on Carver as a melee beater? :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to love carver so much, aesthetically he pushes my buttons and the damage he can do can be explosive, but will choose teddy everytime for that role as the cuddly guy is so much more efficient. 

Totally see carvers other side of the coin but he always missed the cut. I should deffo run him more often and avoid the trap of trying to get him to snip things to pieces.

Agree on hooded and kade, they're totally more than what you get at first glance, and the hooded landing late turn 3 has turned the tide for me on a few occasions.

Enjoying this thread, Pandy is my number 1 and love seeing other people's take on her keyword 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 games in M3E under my belt, so there's a lot of things still waiting to amaze me :)

Thanks to Regelridden for a great thread idea. I use/plan to use models you mentioned and I find it helpful and insightful.

I was surprised how killy Iggy can be in new edition. I hired him as a scheme runner/anti-scheme runner, but frequently he managed to take down opponent's support pieces, including Maddox and Amina Naidu. I think both me and my opponents underestimated this model. Of course, I still believe the best use of this model is Arson.

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

9 games in M3E under my belt, so there's a lot of things still waiting to amaze me :)

Thanks to Regelridden for a great thread idea. I use/plan to use models you mentioned and I find it helpful and insightful.

I was surprised how killy Iggy can be in new edition. I hired him as a scheme runner/anti-scheme runner, but frequently he managed to take down opponent's support pieces, including Maddox and Amina Naidu. I think both me and my opponents underestimated this model. Of course, I still believe the best use of this model is Arson.

 

Iggy definitely punches above his paygrade. I rarely use him, but when I do, I focus on his Reckless for running schemes and his Arson for denying. He tends to die fast, if he engages stuff - or even just gets a little too close, as he’s got a big bullseye on him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/16/2020 at 2:29 AM, Regelridderen said:

Of course this is all general and the game is very specific and match up dependent. So I’d love to hear, when/why you decide to focus on Carver as a melee beater? :)

So a couple things:

- There's a large difference between 9 minimum damage on hit vs 12 minimum damage on hit, and to add onto that Carver is stat 7 with min 3 built in vs stat 6.  Throw on top of that that carver is a 5/6 vs Teds 4/5.

- As far as having to use Pandora and Candy AP, remember that neither of them have anything that attacks Df, so vs a model that has a high willpower but low defense (re: most large beatsticks), trading off some of that AP to attack a model's weakness.

- Probably the biggest and most important detail... Carver is 50% of our factions ruthless.  Going toe to toe with something like Daw or with large amounts of terrifying, him and the Rider are going to be worth their weight in bodies.

I'm not saying that carver doesn't require setup or that he's the best beater for every situation, but in a situation where I need carver, I generally need him to be removing big problems.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/16/2020 at 7:29 AM, Regelridderen said:

Not intended, Carver can definitely have his moments. Trouble is, if you want a min4 3attack Carver, you need to spend 1 ‘Dora action, and 1 Candy action, while making sure that Carver himself doesn’t go down (or get stunned) in that time. Doing the math, that effort will yield 6 damage (while hurting Carver for 2) and the question is whether ‘Dora and Candy wouldn’t be able to cause 6 points of damage if they spent their actions on themselves rather than channeling through Carver.

Another point is, Carver can do 12-18 damage boosted in this way, while an unboosted Teddy alone is capable of dishing out 9-18, so action efficiency-wise Teddy is just a better choice in that role.

I question your maths a little. Carver is a minimum 7 damage ( and probably at least 8 damage) on his own compared to the 9 damage from teddy that requires a card from hand. Because his Bonus action can deal 1 damage and give a positive flip, so you are likely to have flipped a ram in at least one of the attacks. 

Carver can do 7 to 17 damage on its own. It's top end is less likely than Teddy, but it's more likely to reach the quoted minimum, and potentially is less resource intensive. ( and the execute trigger is very good if you are playing for resource denial.)

Edit- with the candy boost, carver is looking at a maximum 25 damage, the Pandora boost is optional, depending on hand/ stones you're prepared to use to get there. 

Carver is a finesse killer, rather than the brutal teddy. Which is ironic in that carver is probably the more survivable of the two  when used without finesse. Neverborn don't need another teddy, they already have teddy.  But I can certainly see why carver fits into this thread. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Nagi21 big difference between 9 and 12, yes. But Carver requires one action from Candy (Fast for two damage) and one action from ‘Dora (built in ram) to get there. Teddy goes up to 12 too, if Candy gives him Fast at only 1 damage, AND she can do this at 8” rather than 3” without hobbling Teddy.

@Adran you’re right, and if it wasn’t for Carvers Glimpse, I’d use him a lot less.

My point isn’t that Carver is useless in a fight. But to me he is more a tech pick vs Terrifying and Focus crews. And I’d rather get him in position to capitalize on his blasts and pulse to drain opponents resources.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Adran said:

Edit- with the candy boost, carver is looking at a maximum 25 damage, the Pandora boost is optional, depending on hand/ stones you're prepared to use to get there. 

Please explain your math here as Carver can only get 3 attacks and Crit strike is limited to +2.  Theoretical maximum should be 20 damage assuming you red joker one attack, reshuffle due to deck running out, and then red joker another attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carver also has a :masktrigger to attack again. Which allows more potential damage than critical strike. 

So each attack has a severe of 4 and each action can get 2 attacks. 4(damage)*2(attacks per action)*3 (actions) is 24. The bonus action can then give a model stunned which carver can give 1 point of damage when they get stunned. Total ( without red joker) 25. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

Carver also has a :masktrigger to attack again. Which allows more potential damage than critical strike. 

So each attack has a severe of 4 and each action can get 2 attacks. 4(damage)*2(attacks per action)*3 (actions) is 24. The bonus action can then give a model stunned which carver can give 1 point of damage when they get stunned. Total ( without red joker) 25. 

Interesting.  I wonder which method works out better statistically, giving him masks or rams with Dora...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Interesting.  I wonder which method works out better statistically, giving him masks or rams with Dora...

Probably depends on what you want. Often there are break points in damage (for instance, if a model has 4 wounds left, two attacks with min 2 are basically the same as two attacks with 3/3/5), so then masks is obviously better.

As a guideline, I'd imagine that if you're planning on cheating, it is probably better to do rams though. Then the single high card gets as much of a boost as possible (rather than a possible followup miss). If wanting to drain their resources, spamming attacks with masks will likely force them to cheat some cards or take tons of damage (since he has stat seven).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Interesting.  I wonder which method works out better statistically, giving him masks or rams with Dora...

I think this depends on the target. At a rough guess I would expect masks to win because the odds of missing are low and it can do extra damage. But most of the time you are comparing 4 to 2+2, which means things like armour or black blood make bigger differences. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information