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Da Git

Fixing Revenant

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As we all know, Reva got some nice buffs in the recent Errata to the point where (I feel) she is now a solid master. That said, it kind of felt like a bandaid to fix a missing limb since (as all you Red Chapel players know!) a master doesn’t make a keyword and from what I’ve been seeing on the Resser chat, AWP, podcasts, here and my own experiences is that Reva almost seems to be a duel keyword master: Revenant and Versatile, with Versatile choices taking the lion’s share of the SS! While I don’t necessarily mind this (I mean, how often have you been hearing about the Grave Golem and Asura elsewhere??). I do think that the Revenant keyword could use some buffs.

 

Corpse Candles:

Buff their movement, these guys get left behind so easily!

 

Cremation:

Currently not an action really worth taking. Drop TN to 10 and add some triggers. 

 

Vincent: This guy’s card is all over the shop. He’s a big, beefy bruiser whose main schtick is a crossbow that want’s him in the backline sniping people! Why does this guy need the kitchen sink when it comes to defensive tech and a bonus action that wants him in the middle of the crew? It’s almost like he tried to copy the wrong Outcast, rather than fail as Rusty, he should have been going more for that Mad Dog vibe! This crew is just too fast and really doesn’t want a sit back turret, it wants someone who can keep up! My thoughts:

Drop: HtW, Agile, drop stats to 7hp, Df5, Wp6, Rapid fire,

Buff: drop to 7ss, Run & Gun, build in the Tomes on Cremation for Shifting Terrain

This makes him a bit cheaper, which is a big thing! Run & Gun lets him get where he needs to be to be able to shoot & move Pyre markers with his trigger, keep away from the threat of engagement, use his bonus action and get in Pyre markers, so he can get Shielded and Burning for Reva to use.

 

Draugr:

This guy feels like he should be the big bruiser of the crew, wading in there, shrugging of hits and cutting fools down with his axe. Instead, he’s such a glass cannon and I currently skip these guys and take the Grave Golem instead. The Wanyudo also fulfils the glass cannon-flanker role plenty well. There are two ways I cold see this guy going:

Option 1: increase to 8ss, increase to 9HP, give Surge trigger on Cremation. Nice and easy, helps him survie a bit longer to actually be able to use Juggernaut or heal from Reva and with the crew’s hand issues with Surge.

Option 2: Increase to 8ss, drop Juggernaut, gain Demise (Immortal Soil) & Unearth. IMO, this is the more fun option, turning them into mini Grave Golems. Gives them good survivability while keeping in theme of using the corpse markers this crew can churn out. Less card intensive. Could be too similar to Lampads, but they use different resources and gives the crew a cool Undying theme! I also loved the story when they came out of the Draugr trying multiple different ways to off himself and failing miserably each time!

 

Lampad

This guy seems like he’s meant to be in the thick of it as a tarpit, tying people up and coming back to life through his demise and bringing the Pyre markers to the enemy (making Vincent’s crossbow trigger a bit superfluous). Alternatively, he’s an overpriced scheme runner… Again, there are 2 ways I could see going with him:

Option 1: drop to 6ss & 7 Hp, makes them a really nice scheme runner which Revenant currently lack.

Option 2 (again the more fun choice!): keep him at 8 and buff his melee attack. Currently, there’s not much reason to take this over Breathe of Fire unless you want the extra movement of a charge, engage someone or the target is concealed. Make Flaming Fury stat 6, build in the Rams OR Tomes and either give it another trigger only either a Crows or Masks (I’m thinking something along the lines of Severe Injury or Quick Reflexes) OR give Hovering Flame the Sudden Strike trigger to make a melee attack.

 

Shieldbearers:

I think a pretty fine for the most part, but I wish the lost the staggered aspect of Plant the Shield… I get the fluff aspect of it, but it really hurts, and I find myself not taking the action a fair bit because of it. The Df 4 is a real liability against Blasts too since you need them close for Take the Hit (they only have 5Hp too, so Df 5 would no where near be unreasonable).

 

Thoughts?

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Corpse candles seem fine movement wise. Often they get a double move (since you can move, kill, summon off their corpse).

They definitely could use a frontliner. I like upping Draugr cost and making them tanky, and then reducing Lampads in cost. Honestly could remove their demise as well if they cost 6.

Shieldbearers being weak to blasts seems fine, but theyre not actually (you can position > 50mm away but < 2 inches).

Grave golem I'm testing out next game, but maybe just make it official and slap revenant on there 😜 also wonder if we will get a revenant model to fill some gaps from explorers society.

More demise (immortal soil) seems very, very strong. Our crew would be super oppressive with multiples of that.

EDIT: Vincent seems great and on theme for the crew. We are the 'ranged' crew of the faction, with our two primary beaters hitting from 10 inches away (Reva and Vincent).

Cremation... Should just be a bonus action, honestly. No need to get too fancy with triggers IMO. Just a simple method for converting corpses to pyres.

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In general I agree with the sentiments that Revenant aren't up to snuff quite yet. They're a hard crew to balance because unlike the other Burning crews of Witch Hunter or Wildfire, Revenant has a passive play style to its Burning mechanics which is why it has additional corpse and Shielded active mechanics to balance it out. Unfortunately having multiple weak themes leaves the crew feeling unfocused. Here are my thoughts:

Corpse Candles
Maybe you can explain your suggestion further, but I don't see a real need for them to be faster. Especially since Mv is a defensive stat so increasing it would also tangentially increase durability as well. I've never had trouble getting them where they need to be, but perhaps you're using them in ways I'm not aware of.

Vincent
Definitely agree he's trying to do a lot of things to sell us on his 9ss cost. I like Protective Spirits, but not on Vincent for the same reason. Perhaps some future high cost melee Enforcer for the keyword would be the better place for it. I think Cremation is just a bad action and needs to be improved (more on that later). I would be fine with him losing Protective Spirits, and gaining Coordinated Attack on his crossbow so he has a trigger for every suit to make it a utility attack action. I'm a bit indifferent on having Run & Gun instead of Rapid Fire, both have great strengths so loosing one for the other would be fine for me.

Draugr & Lampad
Conceptually I agree on these two swapping places. Lampad has underwhelming stats for 8ss with its only exceptional resilience being from Possessing Flame. Dropping its cost and health would be a simple solution for them to feel cost effective. Meanwhile the Draugr are held back by their low cost and increasing it and their durability would put them in a good place. I'm not sure if Immortal Soil and Unearth would be a good solution as I feel it would take away from Grave Golems value, but something with similar effects would be great.

Shieldbearer
I think they're fine as is. They're in that good spot where I always want at least 1 per game, but almost never all them which feels like where a good model should be.

as for what I think should be changed...

Cremation
As I said before, I think this is just a bad action from a cost effective stance. Using a normal action to convert a corpse to a Pyre for a 6+/7+ instead of just attacking the thing I want to be in the Pyre seems like a bad exchange, especially since killing a model will take an enemy model off the table and gets you the Pyre anyway. In addition Revenant models aren't even immune to the hazardous effects of a Pyre marker and using it on the best melee minion or the best ranged model in the keyword seems really wasteful. The action should provide you a small bonus beyond just the Pyre, here's my suggestions:

  • Raise the stat or lower the TN of every Cremation action so that the action becomes extremely reliable.
  • In addition to creating a Pyre marker the model who took the action gains Shielded+1.
  • In addition to creating a Pyre marker the model who took the action draws a card.

I'm a bit more in favor of the Shielded bonus since it reinforces one of the crews sub mechanics, plus the card draw could still be incorporated through the Surge trigger.

  • Agree 3

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Increasing the movement of Corpse candles is the least one I care about, using both their Light the Way actions means they can get 11" up the field, but it's something people said. If their movement was upped, I could see giving them Mindless as giving the opponent pass tokens can & has bitten me in the rear before...

Vincent I definitely think is the epitome of less is more, and he has too much! The reason I'd prefer Run & Gun over Rapid Fire is twofold, first it encourages a more mobile style of play, which is needed as the crew is very fast and helps get him to where he's needed while still being able to shoot once or twice over Rapid Fire's turret style (and can't shoot at all if double walked). This allows him to use his triggers and bonus action more effectively. The second is R&G doesn't require a discard.

For Shieldbearers, being <2" >50mm is an incredible small distance (.8mm to be exact) and then completely doesn't matter if you want to use Take The Hit. Maybe add to Plant Shield that attacks targeting this model do not generate Blasts.

@KingJocko Love the idea of Cremation giving the model Shielded. That would really suit the theme. The problem with making it a bonus action is both Vincent and Draugr already have bonus actions (2 in the case of the Draugr). If you went with the Demise/Unearth Draugr option, then it would be viable as he would lose Juggernaut.

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1 hour ago, Da Git said:

For Shieldbearers, being <2" >50mm is an incredible small distance (.8mm to be exact) and then completely doesn't matter if you want to use Take The Hit. Maybe add to Plant Shield that attacks targeting this model do not generate Blasts.

Thanks to the rule of intent, it doesn't matter how small the point is. If it exists, you can declare that is where you are putting the model.

It doesn't matter for take the hit, but there should be some weaknesses to take the hit IMO. Blasts, pulses, and shocks are some of the best counters to take the hit and protected. Removing an ability's key weakness doesn't make much sense to me.

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  • Corpse Candles

Are fine, I wouldn't touch anything on them.

  • Vincent

I like him. It's not an always pick, and he shouldn't be. In the future we'll have more henchmen/henchwomen for the keyword. The only change I'll make is to drop Rapid Fire for Run and Gun or Agile for Nimble, since I agree with that he kind of feels like a turret when he really needs to move. But I really dislike you other changes regarding him @Da Git

  • Draugr

The simplest solution for me would be change the HtW for HtK, so it will make them more durable. Otherwise, bump their cost to 8ss and add one of the following:

  • +1 Wd + HtK
  • +1 Wd + 1Df

Remove Cremation* on them.

  • Lampads

There are mainly 2 choices for them: Keep being a tanky model at 8ss that reliable hits someone or drop the cost to 7ss and being an "elite" scheme runner.

  • 8ss
    • HtW
    • Stat 6 in Flaming Fury
    • Gain Cremation*
    • Dancing in the Flames: Change the "when resolving a Walk action" to "Once per turn, when this model moves", so it ca be triggered with Hovering Flame.
    • Extra trigger in one of his attacks: This model gains the Burning condition at the same value as the target.
  • 7ss
    • -2 Wd
    • Gain Cremation*
    • Extra trigger in one of his attacks: This model gains the Burning condition at the same value as the target.

I don't want them on 6ss, we already have Shieldbearers, Mourners and Gravediggers for that cost.

  • Cremation*

It should be a free action, that require between a 3 and 5 depending on the model. Same effect as now, but with 2 triggers:

  • :tome Surge: This model draws a card.
  • :crow Protective Spirits: This model gains shielded.

Vincent could still keep his trigger in addition to one of the other two:

  • :mask/:ram Shifting Terrain: Push the marker up to 4" in any direction.

 

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Really interesting suggestions!

I would also like some changes on Dragur and Cremation. I have still my Lampads unpainted but maybe they are as you say. I would like the switch between both about costs and play directions. Vincent seems to be a strong character who likes to sit in a spot and command from there, near the heat.

On Cremation, maybe it could have a trigger like the one on "Drop the pianos" so it can damage models near? That way, you could place your pyre and maybe hit someone with it.

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Lampads could be burning generators for your own models, to satisfy the need of more burning for the new Reva. In my ideal world they are redesigned as 5 or 6 ss support minion with scheming potential, damage track lowered to 1/2/3 and added trigger on their melee to make models in pulse take Mv duel or gain burning (mainly to set your own crew on fire on turn one). However, I know that changes so fundamental are not to be expected.

As for Vincent, I also think he is almost fine. With new Reva it would be probably better if he was giving burning in pulse instead of shielded.

Cremation is simply very bad action (unless it's on a very cheap model), only really good triggers can help it. Surge is probably one of the best ideas.

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9 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Lampads could be burning generators for your own models, to satisfy the need of more burning for the new Reva. In my ideal world they are redesigned as 5 or 6 ss support minion with scheming potential, damage track lowered to 1/2/3 and added trigger on their melee to make models in pulse take Mv duel or gain burning (mainly to set your own crew on fire on turn one). However, I know that changes so fundamental are not to be expected.

As for Vincent, I also think he is almost fine. With new Reva it would be probably better if he was giving burning in pulse instead of shielded.

Cremation is simply very bad action (unless it's on a very cheap model), only really good triggers can help it. Surge is probably one of the best ideas.

The 6ss slot is already crowded. Plus setting your crew on fire turn 1 is easy, you only need to kill 1 Corpse Candle and walk  through one of the 2 pyre markers you will have at that point (which you were already going to do in turn 1). If you want more burning, you can use the Lampad free action and you'll have around 6-10 burning in different models turn one.

The problem is to keep the burning working after that turn. Asking to change a model from 8ss to 5ss is a complete redesign. Take into account that all keywords and factions will be (most likely) receiving new models every year, so there is no point in trying to change completely a model.

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33 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Plus setting your crew on fire turn 1 is easy, you only need to kill 1 Corpse Candle and walk  through one of the 2 pyre markers you will have at that point (which you were already going to do in turn 1).

that's what I do, but I don't think it's enough after errata. now I have more incentive to hire Lampad (I haven't done that so far), but it does not make him/her stronger, only more hireable. that's why I would like to have a cheap model that sets things on fire, not one that costs 8 stones. it does not need to be Lampad, it can be something entirely new - I was speaking about my hypothetical ideal world and added that I do know it's not going to happen.

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For Vincent being a sometimes pick, I rather disagree with that for what is (currently) the only in-keyword henchman. I feel that should be about as strong a contender for always take as you can get and the only other case I can think of is Sybelle who also needs work IMO. To quote his vignette:

Quote

Now he is Reva’s right hand. He is always by her side, giving her advice and watching her back.

How is this a sometimes take? I get the point of choice being key, but how many other cases are the main in-keyword henchman a tech piece? (The Jury is the only one I can think of and that's ok IMO, cause the Judge exists and is her main henchman, or at least the last one was... ). That said I could come around to just making Cremation a bonus action (and give shielded) and swapping Rapid fire for Run & Gun.

I don't think you can change Dancing in the Flames to be move rather than walk. This ability is on Fire Gamin/Golem and I think they specifically didn't want it affecting Charge or the Golem's Draw Off Flames.

as for making the Lampad 6ss, and that slot being overcrowded, I didn't actually mention the Mourners because I forgot about them! Which is a indication of how great they aren't! These lovely ladies also need work. The easiest way would be to drop them to 5ss. The other option could be to give them Cremation if it were a bonus action... although that wouldn't help Seamus...

 

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Off the top of my head, henchmen that are sometimes picks (or never picks)

Sybelle

Philip and the Nanny

The Carver

Widow Weaver

Candy (ish, pretty high pick rate)

Hayreddin

Sebastian

In fact, I think the list of henchmen that ARE autopicks is relatively short. You've got a few like Valedictorian and Montresor, but it isn't as common as the rarely picked ones.

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Mourners are not close to be bad. They bring a corpse for easy Blasphemous funeral in turn 1. They can force enemies to defend on a :-flipagainst Reva's feed on grief and most importantly, they're good at scoring you many schemes with their "Mourn the Dead".

I haven't try them in GG1, but they've score me many points in GG0 for all the schemes that required scheme markers close between them or close to an enemy/terrain.

 

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9 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Mourners are not close to be bad. They bring a corpse for easy Blasphemous funeral in turn 1. They can force enemies to defend on a :-flipagainst Reva's feed on grief and most importantly, they're good at scoring you many schemes with their "Mourn the Dead".

I haven't try them in GG1, but they've score me many points in GG0 for all the schemes that required scheme markers close between them or close to an enemy/terrain.

 

I've not played them as no one around here owns them, but there have definitely been times I wish I had one!

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Maybe this will change when I hear how other people handle the first turn, but if I could make one change to Shieldbearers it'd be:

Battle preparation: at the start of the first turn, this model gains slow. At the end of the first turn, this model may take a non-bonus action.

It'd address the one tricky thing with the model (not being able to shield bash and pulse focus in a smooth series of activations turn one).

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The best fix I saw prior to the errata is to change spirits in the flames to let you convert burning to shielded once per turn. Probably max 2/3, but that then gives the option for the whole crew to be a little more tanky if you time a walk through a pyre right.

Not sure how that works out now Reva also wants to use that burning.

On 3/17/2020 at 6:07 AM, KingJocko said:

Cremation

As I said before, I think this is just a bad action from a cost effective stance. Using a normal action to convert a corpse to a Pyre for a 6+/7+ instead of just attacking the thing I want to be in the Pyre seems like a bad exchange, especially since killing a model will take an enemy model off the table and gets you the Pyre anyway. In addition Revenant models aren't even immune to the hazardous effects of a Pyre marker and using it on the best melee minion or the best ranged model in the keyword seems really wasteful. The action should provide you a small bonus beyond just the Pyre, here's my suggestions:

  • Raise the stat or lower the TN of every Cremation action so that the action becomes extremely reliable.
  • In addition to creating a Pyre marker the model who took the action gains Shielded+1.
  • In addition to creating a Pyre marker the model who took the action draws a card.

I'm a bit more in favor of the Shielded bonus since it reinforces one of the crews sub mechanics, plus the card draw could still be incorporated through the Surge trigger.

Love this idea! I'm not a big fan of making cremation a bonus action, but if it's using ap, I'm tempted to say it shouldn't have a dual at all, and be an automatic action.

 

Lampads and draugr swapping rolls slightly seems to be universally liked. I'm not really bothered if we have several options at 6ss - just makes it easier to customise lists if the minions can be directly swapped out.

 

Does Vincent just need to be 8ss?

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10 hours ago, Da Git said:

For Vincent being a sometimes pick, I rather disagree with that for what is (currently) the only in-keyword henchman. I feel that should be about as strong a contender for always take as you can get and the only other case I can think of is Sybelle who also needs work IMO. To quote his vignette:

I think that there's nothing bad about being a sometimes pick. I still feel like you, that the design looks like they wanted to make him a Rusty Alyce type of turret shooter, but that role doesn't fit to him due to range 10" and the other abilities that he has. He likes to be in the fray and he's quite tanky for his cost, he just lacks a movement trick, so I'll be happy if he looses Rapid Fire to gain Run&Gun (or something similar). If he stays like he is right now (with changes to Cremation of course) I wouldn't complain either, I'll just have to focus on pushing him with the shieldbearers.

How is this a sometimes take? I get the point of choice being key, but how many other cases are the main in-keyword henchman a tech piece? (The Jury is the only one I can think of and that's ok IMO, cause the Judge exists and is her main henchman, or at least the last one was... ). That said I could come around to just making Cremation a bonus action (and give shielded) and swapping Rapid fire for Run & Gun.

Well, for me, except Som'er, Ulix, Tara and Hamelin I found the different henchmen a situational pick (and I own 16 keywords across 5 factions)

I don't think you can change Dancing in the Flames to be move rather than walk. This ability is on Fire Gamin/Golem and I think they specifically didn't want it affecting Charge or the Golem's Draw Off Flames.

Ok, totally agree here, I see your point and I should remember that for all the times I've played against the damn Sandeep :P I'm removing it from the original post, thanks for pointed that out!

as for making the Lampad 6ss, and that slot being overcrowded, I didn't actually mention the Mourners because I forgot about them! Which is a indication of how great they aren't! These lovely ladies also need work. The easiest way would be to drop them to 5ss. The other option could be to give them Cremation if it were a bonus action... although that wouldn't help Seamus...

Already answered ;) 

 

2 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

The best fix I saw prior to the errata is to change spirits in the flames to let you convert burning to shielded once per turn. Probably max 2/3, but that then gives the option for the whole crew to be a little more tanky if you time a walk through a pyre right.

Not sure how that works out now Reva also wants to use that burning.

I was the one to suggest it, in order to focus the Reva game on Shielded, but looks like the designers prefer to go forward with the burning mechanics and there's nothing wrong about it. However, as you pointed out, that suggestion now would make the new burning mechanic a bit clunky without adding much to the crew.

Love this idea! I'm not a big fan of making cremation a bonus action, but if it's using ap, I'm tempted to say it shouldn't have a dual at all, and be an automatic action.

Could you explain us why you wouldn't like it as a :ToS-Fast: action? I would love to hear some arguments or reasons (too OP? still useless?...) :) 

Lampads and draugr swapping rolls slightly seems to be universally liked. I'm not really bothered if we have several options at 6ss - just makes it easier to customise lists if the minions can be directly swapped out.

But the idea is to have variety. I think is better to have 3 models, with costs 6, 7 and 8 than just to have the three of them with the same cost. Also, would you ditch a card and a pyre marker to save a 6ss minion? Dropping them to 6ss would require a lot of adjustments, and unless they're going to be better that what we already have at 6ss, why would someone take them?

Also, Lampads come in a box of 3, so if their cost go down to 7, would be easier to put 2 or even 3 in the table, while Draugr come in a box of 2 :P

Does Vincent just need to be 8ss?

Definetely not without a nerf. He's quite tough and can go up to minimun 4 damage ignoring Incorporeal and HtW. He just lacks the mobility/threat range to be able to take advantage of Rapid Fire (and Cremation is a wasted ability on him)

 

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As previously mentioned draugr already have two free actions, so making cremation also a free action gives them three, which doesn't sit well.

Also, making it cost ap gives the option to do something worth while with it without it becoming op (card draw or shielded [or both!]).

Also, thematically, I imagine it as the model setting the corpse of fire manually, rather than with magic, which should cost something.

It's just down to preference really over any real game need.

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The more I think about it, the more I like someone's idea of taking cremation off Draugr and slapping it on Lampads, and then making it a bonus action.

Then Lampads can have a turn where they're just torching corpses and moving the flames around, or a turn where they can be using their bonus to zip around the board.

Both useful modes, makes cremation more relevant and efficient, makes thematic sense, and shifts a bit more utility onto the Lampad.

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Listened to the last Son of a Breach Podcast today and probably the best idea from it was to give Lampads Incorporeal (at the expense of Final Veil), while it wouldn't help against getting nuked by blasts, it would actually make them mobile while in terrain(!) and make them much more worthy of their 8ss cost (in addition to stat 6 on the melee IMO)

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Yeah, incorporeal would be very thematic.

Also compare lampads to hanged! I just played hanged for the first time last night, and they just are phenomenal models. They feel like they should easily cost 2 stones more than lampads. I know you can't directly compare models, but the gap is ridiculous.

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Oh wait, if lampads were incorporeal, they wouldn't be able to drop corpse markers. I think it important as many of her models as possible drop corpse markers. It is her key mechanic for punishing enemies who kill her minions.

I'd suggest instead to give it the wildfire ability: burning can reduce damage if you reduce burning by an equivalent amount (up to two). And boost some stats! I'm now on board with this after seeing Hanged (with an effective stat 8!!)

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On 3/18/2020 at 12:23 PM, MrPieChee said:

As previously mentioned draugr already have two free actions, so making cremation also a free action gives them three, which doesn't sit well.

That's why I would remove the Cremation from the Draugr and I'll give it to Lampads.

Also, making it cost ap gives the option to do something worth while with it without it becoming op (card draw or shielded [or both!]).

There are a lot of :ToS-Fast: actions that give more than a "simple bonus", I don't know how creating a pyre marker (from a corpse!) can't have some nice triggers depending on the model. I'm thinking of adding Surge on :tome and something to give shielded to 

Also, thematically, I imagine it as the model setting the corpse of fire manually, rather than with magic, which should cost something.

It's just down to preference really over any real game need.

I have nothing to argue against that ;) 

 

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, incorporeal would be very thematic.

Also compare lampads to hanged! I just played hanged for the first time last night, and they just are phenomenal models. They feel like they should easily cost 2 stones more than lampads. I know you can't directly compare models, but the gap is ridiculous.

I just played yesterday against Titania and I was looking at the app to see which incorporeal/unimpeded models I could add, even paying the tax. I ended up seriously considering adding a Hanged. I'm playing again this weekend and I'll try, but those people look good on paper for 8ss.

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23 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

 

I just played yesterday against Titania and I was looking at the app to see which incorporeal/unimpeded models I could add, even paying the tax. I ended up seriously considering adding a Hanged. I'm playing again this weekend and I'll try, but those people look good on paper for 8ss.

They're way better in practice than they are on paper too 😧 (as long as you can consistently hand out staggered, so may vary a bit without support).

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