Two easy changes, to two abilities there will save the Redchapel Keyword

[Dnic]

Seamus

Change to:

Redchapel Killer: When targeting an enemy model engaged by another Redchapel model with an Attack Action, this model does not suffer Friendly Fire and receives a +flip to that Actions duel and Damage flip. This model(seamus) can not gain Fucused and Distrated Condition.

This change will make out of keyword models there give focused less interesting, and make Redchapal models more importen for Seamus.

 

Madame Sybelle

Change to:

Bump in the Night:

After an enemy model ends a move engaged by a friendly Redchapel model within (aura) 6, if it is not the enemy models Activation, that enemy gains Distracted +1.

This change will again make Redchapel models more important, and make the Distracted game more reliable.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I do like synergy based buffs/alterations.

Like Reva's buff literally only works with Revenant models.

So these seem like a great first draft!

[Fetid Strumpet]

I like just for the thought exercise figuring out how to fix the keyword.

I don't like your change to Red Chapel Killer as you aren't fixing the keyword, you are basically applying a gate that says you must hire these bad models to get use from your master. I don't mind synergy, but as was proved by the 1e to 2e and now 3e versions of Jakob, if you want synergy the model must be good and the required synergies work on top. Not being able to have focus in the current edition is really bad depending on model and role. A primary dmg dealer with a mostly usable once per turn gun requiring the model he targets to be engaged with his models to have any chance of doing real dmg? No thank you. Make the bad models better, not the other way around.

Your change to bump in the night is far better than what she has now, but I don't think it would fix her. You still have to hire bad models to get effect out of it and that only works if the enemy model gets moved into an area around Sybelle, AND end engaged, AND it has to not be their turn? So instead of getting Focus on a minion, we get Distracted on an enemy? Possibly better, but really not by much.

She's 10 Stones and she isn't a beater, she isn't very good support, and there exist better models in both roles for her cost even if hired out of keyword such as The Dead Rider, Manos, and Toshiro. A 10 stone model HAS to have better action efficacy then lower cost models, and she just doesn't. And just improving Bump in the night won't do it. She needs Nimble, or Leap (not really just an example), or Flurry, or something like ride or Fly with me, or a just flat out amazing bonus action that is the equivilant of an actual action. Or she needs to get basically that from an ability on the front. And right now she just doesn't have that. What she currently is a model that has about as much effect as a 7ss model you spend 3 extra soulstones on for wounds. Having played Titania a bunch now I'd basically rate her as about as effective as an autumn knight, and she's way more expensive.

 I'm not sure it would do enough but my current thoughts on Sybelle, that we've tested a little in the past on the table, would be to remove the minion restriction from Bump in the Night, and give Sybelle Tools for the Job, to give her a little more control over her triggers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

She's 10 Stones and she isn't a beater

She can hit like a truck (min 4 if you stone, min 5 if you stone and card), so not sure I'd say she isn't a beater. She is just quite clunky in that if you want to use her as a beater, she needs to ooze across the table or use the (reportedly bad) lure engine to get her into melee.

Giving Redchapel a few ways to move multiple models with one action would go a long way IMO. Lure gets much better when you can boost forward with something else to get into position to lure. As is, you often need to use two actions to lure and then they use one to walk back.

[Dnic]

Fetid Strumpet i can see you point about Seamus, and maybe Sybelle, so what about:

Seamus

Change to:

Redchapel Killer: When targeting an enemy model engaged by another Redchapel model with an Attack Action, this model does not suffer Friendly Fire and receives a +flip to that Actions duel and Damage flip.

This change will give Redchapel models a indirect boost, without making Seamus less effective.

 

Madame Sybelle

Change to:

Bump in the Night:

After an enemy model ends a move engaged by a friendly Redchapel model within (aura) 6, if it is not the enemy models Activation, that enemy gains Distracted +1.

This change will again make Redchapel models more important, and make the Distracted game more reliable.

And

Undivided Attention:

Enemy models within range must succed a Willpower duel TN??, or gain Distracted +1.

That will make make Sybelle to the keystone of the Distracted engine, and making every model with Unexpected Ferocity Trigger and Scarlet Temptation Ability much better. 

•  

[Fetid Strumpet]

@Maniacal_cackle no she doesn’t. You are looking at theoretical maximums and not how often those happen or the resources to do so. 1 Stone for 1 extra dmg unless THAT is the dmg that kills a troublesome model is not a good trade. Especially since you might not even get that dmg since you might not hit. I’ve personally found that in actual practice a 3/3/4 dmg spread is less good than a 2/4/5, especially with the prevalence of easy focus, and focus lasting across turns.

Your red chapel change is better, more in keeping with a better design philosophy, but it’s too good in my estimation. Seamus does not need to be made better at all. If anything he might need to lose the corpse marker portion of cause for celebration if they actually fix his keyword. He’s already the focal point of the crew, he doesn’t need to be better. So at least in my estimation looking at fixing the keyword through him isn’t really the way to go.

The solution is to actually make the rest of the models valuable to take. Belles, Sybelle, Bete Noire, and Mourners are the problem, and the solution is to tweak them in some way.

My general solutions, which aside from Sybelle have not been tested:

Give Bete Mobile Warrior and bake a mask into her attack. My biggest problem with Bete is she is unreliable. If there is a corpse on the board it might not be in a position to be useful, and more commonly there is an enemy model standing near it in some way that prevents Bete from using the free charge she gets from unburying. Allowing her to always charge when she comes back would allow her to more regularly get the mobility or extra attack from coming back and would also give her value in being very hard to lock down. And allowing her the mask would allow her to do tricks like attack- bury, unbury & charge in another area of the board, attack. Her dmg isn’t better than many 5 and 6 stone models so she needs something extra.

Sybelle, as discussed above, give her tools for the Job, change her bonus action to apply to all enemy models that enter the aura not that begin engaged. Still a minor effect and still forces her to activate early, but actually gives better return on investment, and then change bump in the night in some way. Remove the minion restriction, or change it to give distracted, or change it to give masks to red chapel models in the aura, or just something else.

Mourners: Would need testing, but possibly give them an ability similar to Metal Gamin That drops a corpse in B2B with them at the end of their activation. Possibly replacing the free market they get at the beginning of the game.

Belles: bake the mask into their Lure and give them a bonus action  that puts up an aura that when an enemy takes an interact action in the aura the belle can remove 1 distracted from said model to cancel the interact.

Not sure how well all would work or if combined they would be too good, but that would be my starting point.

[Dnic]

Yeah a overhaul off almost every model in the keyword can be better, but for a easy/simpel errata, changing two key models are properly best.  

And the change to Seamus, will feel like making him better, but in reality will it make every Redchapel better.

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

 

She's 10 Stones and she isn't a beater, she isn't very good support, and there exist better models in both roles for her cost even if hired out of keyword such as The Dead Rider, Manos, and Toshiro. A 10 stone model HAS to have better action efficacy then lower cost models, and she just doesn't. And just improving Bump in the night won't do it. She needs Nimble, or Leap (not really just an example), or Flurry, or something like ride or Fly with me, or a just flat out amazing bonus action that is the equivilant of an actual action. Or she needs to get basically that from an ability on the front. And right now she just doesn't have that. What she currently is a model that has about as much effect as a 7ss model you spend 3 extra soulstones on for wounds. Having played Titania a bunch now I'd basically rate her as about as effective as an autumn knight, and she's way more expensive.

I disagree with this philosophy

[Fetid Strumpet]

Counterpoint then? Name a commonly taken and universally agreed good model of 10ss that doesn’t have an extra action, bonkers bonus action, and or amazing ability that provides about the same value.

I feel my point can be proven by how often Archie, Manos, Rusty Alyce, and the riders are taken. I can’t think of any high cost models that don’t conform to that basic premise that are taken, let alone universally agreed to be good.

I mean you can see in Sybelle and some of the other models in her cost bracket what it looked like the designers were trying to do with high cost models. The problem is as soon as you let some models break a pattern by getting better than other models of their cost structure, they become the default standard value. I mean compare Rusty Alyce to Sybelle and try to honestly explain to me why they are the same value proposition.

[Nikshe]

Why even bother to take Sybelle when you can spend one more soulstone and hire the Valedictorian?

[NoahScape]

Sybelle is probably the worst 10 stone models in the game. Literally anyone else is better. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Valedictorian is another good point. Archie was so bonkers good he really overshadowed everything and I forgot about her. I don’t like how they fixed Archie but at the least he isn’t in every crew any more.

[Mycellanious]

37 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Counterpoint then? Name a commonly taken and universally agreed good model of 10ss that doesn’t have an extra action, bonkers bonus action, and or amazing ability that provides about the same value.

I feel my point can be proven by how often Archie, Manos, Rusty Alyce, and the riders are taken. I can’t think of any high cost models that don’t conform to that basic premise that are taken, let alone universally agreed to be good.

I mean you can see in Sybelle and some of the other models in her cost bracket what it looked like the designers were trying to do with high cost models. The problem is as soon as you let some models break a pattern by getting better than other models of their cost structure, they become the default standard value. I mean compare Rusty Alyce to Sybelle and try to honestly explain to me why they are the same value proposition.

I disagree that "more actions is more good" is the only way for expensive models to be valuable. Sometimes a particular combination of abilities, or assurance of action (leap is better on a model that can stone for a mask than one that cant), or a unique ability.

The Arcane Emissary doesn't fit that mold (Shove Aside is unreliable because you can't guarantee the suit). What makes the Arcane Emissary valuable is the Negation Aura on a model that is hard to remove as well as a 2" Engagement range. The Arcane Emissary isn't valuable because he get free actions, but because he's really good at draining resources from opponents. A lot of the Emissaries are like this, they dont get extra actions but they get unique actions.

Aside from Emissaries, 10 cost models without extra actions that are considered good include: Arik, Killjoy, and Joss. Imo the value of a 2" range is undervalued. 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Killjoy isn’t actually all that highly valued. If Killjoy didn’t give out the upgrade he did I wouldn’t actually hire him. I see Killjoy as an 8stone model tax I have to pay to get access to the 2 stone upgrade I want on Titania. 
 

I hardly ever see the Arcane Emissary even talked about, let alone taken. Where as the Carrion Emissary is taken because of the criteria I mentioned above, it has a bonkers bonus action that provides as much value as an extra action.

I mean in concept I could agree with you, but if any such models accord with that design ideal they are few and far between. So sure in a theoretical world sure I agree with you that it is *possible* to deviate from the criteria I mentioned above, but in practical everyday terms, probably not. So again I’ll stand by my opinion. Totally fine if you disagree but I would argue there are far more concrete examples supporting my supposition than otherwise.

[Maniacal_cackle]

While I largely agree that the best ten stone models have 3 actions, here's some that break the rule: emmisaries, carver, Anna Lovelace, and probably a few others.

And Sybelle has 2.5 actions, as I've got your back is quite decent (although maybe not the best fit for redchapel or ressers in general).

The 'min 5' is surprisingly relevant I find, much like Vincent's ability to burst for severe six ignoring hard to wound. If your opponent doesn't respect that you *can* do it, it can hurt (for instance, last game with Vincent I did it for 5 damage and scored let them bleed). It also means any model with 8 health near her might die if the opponent thinks you have the right cards. So there is a deterrent effect.

I don't think she is competitively viable necessarily, but treating her like she is useless will result in a crazy buff and she will be overpowered. Imagine her with leap and flurry like Archie got, for instance.

EDIT: one design issue is that she is very severe-hungry. To make the best use of her, you want to be using suited severes to abuse her awesome triggers. Which would be something Molly wants, but in a Seamus crew is clunky. Seamus has first dibs on severes. So any fix should avoid making her more severe hungry (for instance, a 2/4/5 damage track or focusing on her beater abilities). I like the direction of OP, giving her some oomph without requiring cards.

[unti]

Since we are theory crafting: 

I think you are right that undivided attention is just not a fun and synergetic action. I would love to see an action that boosts belles and mourners.

I liked the m2e upgrade of sybelle, I think it was called 'out of my way', and it forced lured models to move 2 additional inches towards the lure-model in the aura. This aura as an new bonus plus a trigger that puts out distracted on redchapel engaged models would probably spice up the belle-sybelle synergy and would only change one model...

What do you think?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another thing about Redchapel is the minions all have solid triggers with no way to guarantee them.

Could give Sybelle tools for the job but gives minions in aura 6 the discarded suit.

For Seamus, to bring him down a bit, could give him a new ability Uninspired- this model cannot gain focus from the abilities of other models.

Then give him focused attacks when firing near redchapel models.

Removing the ability to focus entirely could kill the keyword potentially. The free focus is a better target IMO.

[NoahScape]

Can we stop saying shes min 5? Shes not min 5. Its unreliable and requires at least a stone and a high value card. Its a bad argument. 

 

I've got your back is not good, and is really bad for her in this crew. Vincent can at least be a tech pick. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Can we stop saying shes min 5? Shes not min 5. Its unreliable and requires at least a stone and a high value card. Its a bad argument. 

 

I've got your back is not good, and is really bad for her in this crew. Vincent can at least be a tech pick. 

She isn't min 5 all the time, but if you gave her leap, she'd be min5 enough of the time. It'd be common enough to see her leaping across the table and doing 8-9 damage with ease. In a vacuum you can do it consistenlty if you prioritise it.

Of course, why would you prioritise severes for her when you have Seamus.

So back to my main conclusion: any buff to her should focus on making her useful without severes. Just slapping on leap won't help with that issue.

[Fetid Strumpet]

An opponent really doesn’t have to respect a min 5 dmg from Sybelle as all that impressive. They really don’t because at that point her dmg, for one swing, assuming you’ve set it up all right, is 5/5/6, and in order to get that she has to hit you, after spending a SS, and connect using a ram, 

So... considering how difficult it is to even get to that you might as well cower in fear and respect the possibilities of just about any model hitting you for their severe because it’s a heck of a lot easier for just about any model to hit for severe than it is for Sybelle to hit you for 5. And considering that set up 5/5/6 is laughable dmg. You want to kill my 6 wound model that’s gonna still take 2 swings.

Sybelle doesn’t need Leap. Leap is frankly too common in the game and it’s utility is shutting out many other models in favor of those who have it.

Seamus is fine. He doesn’t need mucking with. If anything the only thing that could help tone him down if his crew gets reworked is to remove the corpse marker portion of Cause for Celebration. And that’s if his crew is improved to the point that they are better than the versatile models and out of keyword models he’s currently taking. If they make them approximately the same then It’s possible nothing would need to be done.

Its an interesting idea about giving suits out, but open ended like that... no. I saw what happened in 1e with the filth list and we don’t need to go back to that. I’d be ok with giving out 1 suit, for specifically Red Chapel models only, so that the interaction could be more tightly controlled. Giving out any suit you want to any minion you want could be as bad for the health and design of the game as opening Nicodem’s summoning to all undead resser minions was in 2, and making the old version of Agent 46 was to Guild.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Whoops, meant to type give Redchapel minions the suit! Agree it is ridiculous if not limited. Could also just be one minion in pulse 6 or whatever.

Just about any model can get to 5 damage on a severe, except against Hard to Wound models.

I guess my perspective is from a meta where HtW is super common.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Mine too. I only play 1 crew that doesn’t have H2W on most of their models and I still get moderate and Severe dmg inflicted on my models all the time.

I mean one of my previous suggestions to correct Bump in the night  was to give masks to red chapel models when one of the participants of the duel was in the aura.

But I don’t think you could give out any suit since that could either get out of control real fast or shackle your design space in the future. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Mine too. I only play 1 crew that doesn’t have H2W on most of their models and I still get moderate and Severe dmg inflicted on my models all the time.

I mean one of my previous suggestions to correct Bump in the night  was to give masks to red chapel models when one of the participants of the duel was in the aura.

But I don’t think you could give out any suit since that could either get out of control real fast or shackle your design space in the future. 

Reasonable!

Could also do a random suit (flip off the top of the deck), but high variance solutions are... Poop.