Timing on Terrifying and Scamper

[Zarias_Dragon]

In light of the new changes, what happens if a model with Terrifying and the new IR upgrade is targeted by an attack, then the opponent has to Cheat Fate to succeed at the Terrifying check? Would Scamper trigger at that point, since the Terrifying Ability would be resolved, therefore allowing the model to potentially move out of range of the attack? Or would Scamper resolve after the attack that caused the Terrifying check? 

[santaclaws01]

"After resolving the current action or ability"

Terrifying is an ability. It gets resolved.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Scamper specifies that it happens after resolving the current action, so you don't get to scamper until the attack is completed.

Whoops, Santa beat me to it above!

[Zarias_Dragon]

@santaclaws01 I'm still not sure I'm clear. So you're saying Terrifying gets resolved as the current Ability, then the model moves away due to Scamper? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Zarias_Dragon said:

@santaclaws01 I'm still not sure I'm clear. So you're saying Terrifying gets resolved as the current Ability, then the model moves away due to Scamper? 

I think it should be:

• Terrifying duel.
• Cheat terrifying
• Generate scamper effect (but you can't resolve it yet because scamper says "after the current ability or action is resolved")
• Continue with the attack and do everything for that.
• If there are more cheats, generate more scampers.
• Action is finished resolving.
• Resolve the scampers.

(There is at least one other way Scamper could be interpreted, but then it would be wayyyyy overpowered so am sceptical of it).

[LeperColony]

If an enemy model cheats a Terrifying test within 6, the model with Scamper would get to push 2" after resolving Terrifying but before any attack. 

But a subsequent question is what if the scamper move makes the action invalid?  I'm not talking targeting here, that is clear (the action fails).  But what if the Scamper move makes the action illegal?  For instance:

Model A declares a  action targeting B.  B has Terrifying.  A fails, cheats.  B scampers into engagement range.  Can A resolve the attack?

[santaclaws01]

@Maniacal_cackle
Action or ability, not action and ability, not action.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ah, are you saying that the you move after the terrifying check, but terrifying is after targeting, so it doesn't matter if the opponent moves because the range measurement for the attack has already been done (when targeting was declared)?

I think I overall disagree but can see the logic of it.

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

@Maniacal_cackle
Action or ability, not action and ability, not action.

But the terrifying duel was generated by an Attack Action. Surely that is what must be resolved before Scamper?

[Adran]

I would expect the scamper to happen after the attack action but I can see the other way. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

In practice, it shouldn't ever matter anyway (although on occasion it'll mean you can scamper into concealment to get the bonus or into/out of auras).

Terrifying checks occur in step three, presumably after the rest of targeting (aka, you check if it is a legal target before terrifying).

After the terrifying check, you do not need to check range. So even if you teleported across the table after terrifying, the attack should still hit you.

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

But the terrifying duel was generated by an Attack Action. Surely that is what must be resolved before Scamper?

Has an action or ability resolved? Yes? Then you have met the timing condition to resolve the push from Scamper.

 

But yeah, as @Maniacal_cackle has said, you're past the point of the action being able to fail as illegal, so the hit is still coming.

[Mycellanious]

4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Has an action or ability resolved? Yes? Then you have met the timing condition to resolve the push from Scamper.

 

But yeah, as @Maniacal_cackle has said, you're past the point of the action being able to fail as illegal, so the hit is still coming.

Sure if you change the wording you are definitely right, but Scamper doesnt check for when "an Action or Ability is resolved" it checks for when "the current Action or Ability is resolved:

The current Action is surely the Attack Action, otherwise there would be weird situations where Scamper would resolve twice. 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Sure if you change the wording you are definitely right, but Scamper doesnt check for when "an Action or Ability is resolved" it checks for when "the current Action or Ability is resolved:

The current Action is surely the Attack Action, otherwise there would be weird situations where Scamper would resolve twice. 

And the current ability is terrifying. It has resolved. What part of "or" means "and" or "unless there's still an action or ability unresolved".

[LeperColony]

17 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

The current Action is surely the Attack Action, otherwise there would be weird situations where Scamper would resolve twice. 

The "current Action or Ability" is whatever caused the duel that included the cheating.  If the cheating us from the Terrifying duel, then the "current Action or Ability" is the Terrifying ability, and so you would trigger Scamper after cheating and before the attack.

21 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

But yeah, as @Maniacal_cackle has said, you're past the point of the action being able to fail as illegal, so the hit is still coming.

I think this is incorrect.  Under actions on page 22, range is the "maximum distance the Action can effect."  If Scamper takes you beyond the range, you are therefore beyond the maximum distance the Action can effect, and so there is no effect.

[santaclaws01]

10 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I think this is incorrect.  Under actions on page 22, range is the "maximum distance the Action can effect."  If Scamper takes you beyond the range, you are therefore beyond the maximum distance the Action can effect, and so there is no effect.

I think you're putting way to much weight on a quick description. Ricochet can now no longer choose a model that's beyond the range of the action. Shockwaves can no longer cause a pulse beyond the range that the marker could be placed. Actions that have a push effect stop at the range of the action, or if they can push beyond the range still then any step 5 triggers that affect the target are now invalid.

[LeperColony]

18 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I think you're putting way to much weight on a quick description. Ricochet can now no longer choose a model that's beyond the range of the action. Shockwaves can no longer cause a pulse beyond the range that the marker could be placed. Actions that have a push effect stop at the range of the action, or if they can push beyond the range still then any step 5 triggers that affect the target are now invalid.

I can't deny it's possible that I'm expanding the text beyond its meaning, but I don't think either of the two cases you're providing establish that.  

The specific controls the general.  Ricochet and Shockwaves both provide their own range information which has priority over the base Action range.

You've also mistakenly assumed that "the maximum distance the Action can effect" necessarily means the same thing as "the maximum distance the Action's effects extend."  The two are not the same thing.

A range of 8 on an action that says "push the target 4"" limits the distance the action can effect to 8".  But anything within 8" (that meets any other targeting requirements) is potentially subject to the Action's effect, namely the push. 

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I can't deny it's possible that I'm expanding the text beyond its meaning, but I don't think either of the two cases you're providing establish that.  

The specific controls the general.  Ricochet and Shockwaves both provide their own range information which has priority over the base Action range.

You've also mistakenly assumed that "the maximum distance the Action can effect" necessarily means the same thing as "the maximum distance the Action's effects extend."  The two are not the same thing.

A range of 8 on an action that says "push the target 4"" limits the distance the action can effect to 8".  But anything within 8" (that meets any other targeting requirements) is potentially subject to the Action's effect, namely the push. 

If you're affecting something you're changing it in some way. If an action can only affect things up to the distance of it's Rg stat, then that necessarily means it is unable to change anything that is not within that Rg. And as we know by action trigger rules, they're subject to everything their action is subject to.


Also, just so you're aware, you're using the wrong effect/affect in your quote, since that has a pretty drastic change on the meaning.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@LeperColony, are you saying you'd play it that the attack fails?

If so, Pandora is going to cause the average model to fail to hit her over 50% of the time, even if their hand is 6 red jokers. I don't think that can possibly be the intention of how it works.

[LeperColony]

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

If an action can only affect things up to the distance of it's Rg stat, then that necessarily means it is unable to change anything that is not within that Rg. And as we know by action trigger rules, they're subject to everything their action is subject to.

Once again, the specific controls the general.  The trigger Ricochet and Shockwaves provide their own range information.  That overrides the action's range.  

Also "unable to change anything that is not within that Rg" is the very the failure to understand the difference between "the maximum distance the action can affect" and "the maximum distance the Action's effects extend."  

Since I've gone down these rabbit holes with you before to no avail, if you continue to demonstrate no understanding of the distinction, I'll just leave that thread alone for both of our sakes.

15 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Also, just so you're aware, you're using the wrong effect/affect in your quote, since that has a pretty drastic change on the meaning.

I almost certainly lead the league in grammar, spelling and homophone correction edits.  It usually takes like 50 of them to fix all my various grammatical errors.

16 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@LeperColony, are you saying you'd play it that the attack fails?

I'm saying that's what I believe would happen RAW.  

You don't apply the effects of the Action until Step 5.  We already know range is the maximum distance the Action can affect.  So if you get to Step 5 and the target is not within that distance, I don't currently see a textual framework that explains why the target should be affected.  

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, assuming for a moment that we are accepting that interpretation...

How do shieldbearers work? They have an attack to push you 2", and then a trigger to push you an another 4". If the action fails as soon as they're out of range, how is it applying the 4" effect past the 1" melee range? The second push is outside the range by the time it comes to resolve it.

(Incidentally measurement timing could use some clarification in many parts of the game still).

[LeperColony]

56 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

How do shieldbearers work? They have an attack to push you 2", and then a trigger to push you an another 4". If the action fails as soon as they're out of range, how is it applying the 4" effect past the 1" melee range? The second push is outside the range by the time it comes to resolve it.

I would see this as being analogous to other Actions that are movement effects that risk pushing people outside the range of triggers.  To me, RAW, if you want maximum distance, you'd have the shieldbearers push the target as far as possible but still within range, then push 4" with the trigger.

Again though, this is my current best understanding based on the text of the rules.  My preferred method of resolution would be to treat Terrifying as part of the targeting process.  So you actually haven't targeted a model until you successfully pass Terrifying.  However, that interpretation conflicts with the explicit text of the rules.

Remember, the formal resolution theory of triggers on the forum is that the range information passes to the trigger automatically.  So Knock Aside when on Shield Slam is a 1 effect.

[SerZaka]

Get ready to wait next January for the FaQ xD

[LeperColony]

1 hour ago, SerZaka said:

Get ready to wait next January for the FaQ xD

That really is the only way to get a definitive answer.

I can't really tell which result the devs intend.  To me, either resolution seems reasonable.  But the rules for Action are written in such a way as to currently lead to an ambiguous situation at best.  

[Ogid]

I'll dive into these rules later (no access to rules now), but some quick notes:

• Triggers doesn't inherit the range unless it's specified; in the shieldbearer case it's totally fine to push 2'' and then 4''.
• If terrifying happens after the range is checked and there is no other check, the ability should go off even if the push bring it out of range (I really doubt it may cause the ability to fail)