Let Them Bleed

[Mycellanious]

"At the end of the Turn, if at least two nonLeader enemy models without Summon Upgrades in play have (or are tied for) the highest Cost and are at half or less than their maximum Health, gain 1 VP"

Are models with Summon Upgrades counted for the purposes of determining highest cost? So you can just hire 7-8 ss models, summon in 10ss models, and never give up any points for the scheme?

[touchdown]

That's a good point, I don't think that's intended and hopefully they clarify. However, it wouldn't *prevent* scoring the scheme. You could kill the summoned model(s), and the 2nd point is still scorable.

[Paddywhack]

Since we're looking at models without a Summon Upgrade, it sure seems like it should only be looking at those models for 'highest cost'. Could use some clarification. That one is worded very awkwardly for me. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I read it as:

Completely ignore models with summon upgrades.

Of the remaining models, look at highest costs.

(Note upgrades never affect a models cost. For vendetta, upgrades are ignored. Upgrades have their own cost which is sometimes referenced).

This is likely for balance reasons (the scheme would be impossible against some summoners since they could last minute summons to deny).

[Mycellanious]

24 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I read it as:

Completely ignore models with summon upgrades.

Of the remaining models, look at highest costs.

(Note upgrades never affect a models cost. For vendetta, upgrades are ignored. Upgrades have their own cost which is sometimes referenced).

This is likely for balance reasons (the scheme would be impossible against some summoners since they could last minute summons to deny).

Upgrades arent "ignored" for Vendetta. Upgrades arent even mentioned in the Scheme. The cost of a model is its cost. 

If Summon Upgrade were supposed to be completely ignored surely it would be worded "Models with attached Summon Upgrades are considered Insignificant for the purposes of this Scheme"

[Maniacal_cackle]

29 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Upgrades arent "ignored" for Vendetta. Upgrades arent even mentioned in the Scheme. The cost of a model is its cost. 

If Summon Upgrade were supposed to be completely ignored surely it would be worded "Models with attached Summon Upgrades are considered Insignificant for the purposes of this Scheme"

What scheme phrases anything that way?

This templating is pretty consistent with others (listing multiple conditions that must all be met). They even have an FAQ on that templating.

You can check this by removing the other requirements and see if it makes sense. As you can see below, the meaning becomes clear when you remove the other requirements (you can do the same thing with other wonky templating).

Yes, this is weird templating. But that is why they did an FAQ on multi-requirement templating.

"At the end of the Turn, if two models without Summon Upgrades in play have (or are tied for) the highest Cost and are at half or less than their maximum Health, gain 1 VP"

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What scheme phrases anything that way?

This templating is pretty consistent with others (listing multiple conditions that must all be met). They even have an FAQ on that templating.

You can check this by removing the other requirements and see if it makes sense. As you can see below, the meaning becomes clear when you remove the other requirements (you can do the same thing with other wonky templating).

Yes, this is weird templating. But that is why they did an FAQ on multi-requirement templating.

"At the end of the Turn, models without Summon Upgrades in play have (or are tied for) the highest Cost and are at half or less than their maximum Health, gain 1 VP"

The issue here is that the without a summon upgrade is a condition on the models available to score off of. It makes no mentions of models competing for the highest cost slot.

[Mycellanious]

24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The issue here is that the without a summon upgrade is a condition on the models available to score off of. It makes no mentions of models competing for the highest cost slot.

And to be clear I think it SHOULD be worded the way Manical Cackle wants to interpret it, and I think they should reword it because right now I know several people who are going to choose to interpret it the way I was. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

31 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The issue here is that the without a summon upgrade is a condition on the models available to score off of. It makes no mentions of models competing for the highest cost slot.

Whoops, I didn't remove all the conditions.

"At the end of the Turn, if two models without Summon Upgrades are at half or less than their maximum Health, gain 1 VP"

(Technically the bit about half or less life is a condition too, but removing that makes it less clear).

The highest costs is another condition to score off of them. There is only one set of conditions, and they all apply together (as per the FAQ on templating).

Also, forum rule 5. The intent is pretty clear as to how it is supposed to work, particularly in light of the templating FAQ (which I'll link if I'm able to get to a computer with internet this weekend).

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Perhaps people could clarify...

How many people here think that you can have a 9 cost model with a summon cost model, and everything else cost 8 or less... And then the scheme is impossible to score until the 9 cost summon is killed?

[Angelshard]

I have another question for this. 

If your opponent has one model that cost 9 and one that cost 10 does the 9 stone model still count as highest cost? Or can you only score this if your opponent has two models that costs the same and at least as much as your most expensive model? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I have another question for this. 

If your opponent has one model that cost 9 and one that cost 10 does the 9 stone model still count as highest cost? Or can you only score this if your opponent has two models that costs the same and at least as much as your most expensive model? 

I think they can be different costs. They just have to have the two highest.

[santaclaws01]

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Whoops, I didn't remove all the conditions.

"At the end of the Turn, if two models without Summon Upgrades are at half or less than their maximum Health, gain 1 VP"

(Technically the bit about half or less life is a condition too, but removing that makes it less clear).

The highest costs is another condition to score off of them. There is only one set of conditions, and they all apply together (as per the FAQ on templating).

Also, forum rule 5. The intent is pretty clear as to how it is supposed to work, particularly in light of the templating FAQ (which I'll link if I'm able to get to a computer with internet this weekend).

 

Thinking about it more I agree with the interpretation now(but not how we got there I think). Where I realised my mistake was that if it's just looking at the cost of other models in play to determine if those models have the highest cost, then it would also have to look at leaders, so the scheme would be impossible unless your opponent hired 2 masters to go with their leader.