New Gamble Your Life aka We need Errata for an Errata!

[Domin]

Good time of the day. 

Last changes for a Stitched's Gamble Your Life action, TMM, brought them is some unpredicted state. 

In the cost of an action we see the following:

"If this Action fails, this models suffers the effects as though the defending model was taking this action targeting this model."

If we RAW, we can see that failing the action doesn't make Stitched suffer any harm - since while the attacker and defender were swapped, the action still counts as failed - and therefore can have no results. 

Moreover, if for example, Stitched tries to "gamble" someone, get a final duel total more then the target, but not enough to reach TN, then action will be failed - but there will be no any Accuracy Modifier since such things as "you win with lower duel total" wasn't even mentioned in rules.

Discussions?

[santaclaws01]

Quote

Accuracy Fate Modifiers occur when there is a variable flip (often a damage flip) as the result of an opposed duel.

So, already we qualify. There is a damage flip as a result of a duel. I don't think anyone can really argue against this(although I could be wrong)

Moving on, 
 

Quote

The Accuracy Fate Modifiers are determined by the differences in the final duel total based on the breakdown below:
• Tied: The damage flip will suffer --. • 1 to 5: The damage flip will suffer a -. • 6 to 10: The damage flip won’t have a modifier for accuracy. • 11+: The damage flip will receive a +.

Right off the bat, people see that there's no negatives. What people are probably overlooking is that it says "determined by the differences in the final duel total". No mention of who is winning the duel. Just whatever the difference is. Meaning a stitched getting a 10 and the defending getting a twelve is a still only a difference of 2, which puts their resulting damage flip at a negative.


Now, to address that argument that if the stitched doesn't reach the TN, then the defending model doesn't get a damage flip

In Step F: Determine outcome it says
 

Quote

The model that initiated the duel must equal or exceed the target’s final duel total (in opposed duels) and the Target Number (TN) of the duel, if applicable, to succeed in the duel.

And based on the stitched special text saying
 

Quote

If this Action fails, this models suffers the effects as though the defending model was taking this action targeting this model.

Well, the stitched inarguably failed, so it suffers the effects of the action, and the effect of the action is a 3/4/5 damage flip.

[Maniacal_cackle]

So the defending model isn't initiating and the text says to go to effects, but you still use accuracy modifier based on difference? Mostly makes sense, but what happens when the stitched is higher but failed the target number? Then the difference is negative.

A straight, cheat able flip breaks the game the least in my eyes.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So the defending model isn't initiating and the text says to go to effects, but you still use accuracy modifier based on difference? Mostly makes sense, but what happens when the stitched is higher but failed the target number? Then the difference is negative.

A straight, cheat able flip breaks the game the least in my eyes.

Nowhere in the accuracy fate mod rules does it say you take the winning flip and subtract the losing flip from it. You just take the difference in final duel totals. There is a difference of 2 between 10 and 12, regardless of which way you look at it. Essentially you're looking at the absolute value of Attackers final duel total-defender's final duel total.

[Maniacal_cackle]

23 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Nowhere in the accuracy fate mod rules does it say you take the winning flip and subtract the losing flip from it. You just take the difference in final duel totals. There is a difference of 2 between 10 and 12, regardless of which way you look at it. Essentially you're looking at the absolute value of Attackers final duel total-defender's final duel total.

This does feel a bit counterintuitive though.

If the stitched wins by a lot but fails the TN (say a 12 vs a 0), it takes a bigger hit than if it loses barely (say a 12 vs a 10)?

Is that how you're playing it?

[santaclaws01]

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This does feel a bit counterintuitive though.

If the stitched wins by a lot but fails the TN (say a 12 vs a 0), it takes a bigger hit than if it loses barely (say a 12 vs a 10)?

Is that how you're playing it?

Yup. Same for resistance triggers.

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This does feel a bit counterintuitive though.

If the stitched wins by a lot but fails the TN (say a 12 vs a 0), it takes a bigger hit than if it loses barely (say a 12 vs a 10)?

Is that how you're playing it?

It's almost impossible to fail to reach the TN and still be 11+ above the opponent, especially if you know a fail will hurt you. It's pretty hard to be 6+ when you know of the risk. So whilst it is a slightly counter intuitive situation, it's what I'd go with. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

12 minutes ago, Adran said:

It's almost impossible to fail to reach the TN and still be 11+ above the opponent, especially if you know a fail will hurt you. It's pretty hard to be 6+ when you know of the risk. So whilst it is a slightly counter intuitive situation, it's what I'd go with. 

Almost impossible unless you're doing it intentionally (for example, to have a stitched kill itself on an insignificant model to deny another model doing it).

But yes, I take your point, niche case weirdness is fine.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Almost impossible unless you're doing it intentionally (for example, to have a stitched kill itself on an insignificant model to deny another model doing It)

If you're trying to kill your own stitched on a fail then you probably don't want to let them be able to cheat the damage just in case they have a black joker. 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Almost impossible unless you're doing it intentionally (for example, to have a stitched kill itself on an insignificant model to deny another model doing it).

But yes, I take your point, niche case weirdness is fine.

As Adran said, doing it on a positive is probably the worst. You want them on a straight or negative. Straight if they have no cards in hand, negative if they do. On a positive it gives them more chance to do less damage since they get to choose the card.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yes, true!

[Nagi21]

Alright so the most recent TFW podcast with Matt and Kyle just dropped publicly.  There's one important statement that should clarify half of this discussion.

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-ps8wq-8429921?utm_campaign=w_share_ep&utm_medium=dlink&utm_source=w_share

1:25:50

Matt: And those flips are, y'know, they suffer from accuracy, um, now.  Which is a huge change of like, I'm not necessarily just going to be hit for five points of damage cause that was the top card of t-the deck or whatever. Granted, you can still cheat, but if the Stitched Together fails you can probably equally cheat, provided you don't, you're not on that negative yourself if you only barely won.

 

This seems to clarify that the attack happens in reverse as if the opponent was attacking you (as some expected) with normal accuracy modifiers.  No word on how this interacts with failures due to terrifying and such.  Also raises an interesting question about focus but that's another matter.

[Ogid]

18 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Also raises an interesting question about focus but that's another matter.

The new Gamble your life is an attack with a normal duel and accuracy mods, Focused works on it as usual; and so it does any other thing affecting duels (Distraction aura, Chi...)

[Maniacal_cackle]

38 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The new Gamble your life is an attack with a normal duel and accuracy mods, Focused works on it as usual; and so it does any other thing affecting duels (Distraction aura, Chi...)

The question is probably...

If stitched uses focus and fails, does the enemy benefit from the focus?

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

he question is probably...

If stitched uses focus and fails, does the enemy benefit from the focus?

Lol, I was dense yesterday; that's more likely yes.

Taking in count Focused wording ("this model..."), I'd say the other player may use Focused bonus damage if he was the one using Focused and Stitcheds lose the gamble.

[74legion]

Action failed.... If the total result of the duel is already 12 Stitched at their opponent's 4, then will the opponent deal damage with a clean card without a modifier? Or will the Stitched ones take damage to themselves? And they can cheat him?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, 74legion said:

Action failed.... If the total result of the duel is already 12 Stitched at their opponent's 4, then will the opponent deal damage with a clean card without a modifier? Or will the Stitched ones take damage to themselves? And they can cheat him?

The opponent gets to flip for damage because the stitched failed the action. The accuracy modifier is none because the difference in the duel total is 8. Because it is a damage flip with no modifiers it can be cheated