GG1, FAQ, Errata - Outcasts

[RisingPhoenix]

16 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Granted, Parker drops a lot of enemy scheme markers, but rarely does the crew "leave" them everywhere.

Exactly, and that's about how I feel about Tara "handing out fast like candy".  Back when the crew was playable, you'd hand out Fast if you specifically wanted to unbury something on a target.  It would often require multiple activations of spamming bonus actions (once someone figures out what you're doing, it's not actually a hard one to dodge).   With the new changes, now you ONLY hand out Fast on targets that have already activated and you want to unbury something with, since you have no way to stop a fast model from activating.  Things really don't start their activation with Fast in a Tara crew.

[Jordon]

I feel like if Obliteration was such a delicate keyword that simply changing one action on one model now makes "un competitive" then there is a bigger problem at play here. I'm not a fan of how they changed Aionus and it certainly makes things more complicated in a crew that is already pretty complicated. I don't have a ton of experience with Tara but the crew still seems pretty good and very difficult to plan for. 

My issue is just the lack of model options. The crew is so very specific to their schtick that hiring OOK rarely makes sense. Having something like the Talos that really doesn't play by the same rules as every other obliteration model is frustrating. Aionus shouldn't be the star of the show but if they were going to knock him down a peg they could of at least given something back with the Talos

[RisingPhoenix]

Well the action is pretty core to Tara's summoning.  All summoning masters are balanced around summoning.  It's a bit like saying "well now Daschel seems good because they changed one model in his crew" and like, yeah, that's literally all they did, but it makes the summoning work.   Let me explain.  Tara summons things in buried.  There's two ways to unbury them.  The first is to end a model's fast condition, the second is to use Aionus' action to unbury them.  

The only way to stop a Fast model from activating is to use a pass token with Aionus.  The only way to get a Pass Token is Aionus' unbury action (or Hans, if you're truly desperate - this needs a card and to hit a shot).  So by nerfing that action you hit BOTH halves of her summoning.  

But it's not just her summoning, that is also her crew's mobility.  It's what lets the Nothing Beast go murder some scheme runner and then dive down and resurface at Aionus, or do a hit and run attack on a vulnerable model.  So you stick a big ugly hurdle for the crew's entire mobility.  The Nothing Beast is not meant to duel Hinamatsu.  Aionus is not meant to fight Joss.  They will get trashed.  So that mobility is how they can do hit and runs.  That mobility is what lets the crew operate.   Tara is supposed to be able to run up there, give an enemy scheme runner fast, and unbury Aionus to poop out two Void wretches on a flank.  That's the sort of things that make the crew good - unlike conventional things like "hp" and "damage", neither of which they're great at.

So we could go revert Daschel's change and now he just needs +2 on his summoning, and doesn't draw a card.  And then Daschel isn't good.  And all we changed was the Dispatcher, which is a lot like adding a requirement that you need to flip a two sevens, and also maybe spend a soulstone for the pass token trigger.  

If it was creating a negative play experience, that's fine.  I can see how replicating the M2E "your turn is done?  Good, let me start my turn" experience was "negative play experience".  But they owe her a fix in 6 months that makes her crew work again.   Maybe just upgrade Aionus' passive so that if an enemy model with Fast tries to activate, you can make a non-Fast model activate unless there's none of those left.  Then it's more about controlling activations with fast to let your summons/hit and runs come out.  Oh and upgrade that damn bonus action to a 6, there's like entire crews where it's really hard to land it and it's very random.  And get rid of the stupid target number. 

 

Edit: Here, this will solve the pass token bit of it:

Buffering: If an enemy model with Fast that is within 6" of an Obliteration model would activate, this model may choose an enemy model without Fast that has not activated to activate instead.  If the chosen model is not within line of sight or buried, discard a card.  

If you do that, take the pass token trigger off entirely, it's probably a net nerf but at least an interesting one.   It shifts the play more towards putting fast on enemy models, but at least adds a tool to make that not an entirely stupid option.  Plus you could do things like give a beater coming in fast to freeze it in place until the end of the round, that feels very thematic.  

[farmoar]

13 hours ago, Jordon said:

My issue is just the lack of model options. The crew is so very specific to their schtick that hiring OOK rarely makes sense.

I feel like that is an Outcast issue. They are a faction in the loosest sense of the term, brought together mostly by their inability to fit in with the other factions. 

[Jesy Blue]

I just had an awesome thought with Corrupted Lay Lines:  unless it's a poison or burning centric crew I'm against, I'm going to start every game with the Lodestone on a Guilty and attempt to take the center marker turn 1 and let them kill it!

If it dies, more cards in hand... if it lives, points!

[Axelst]

51 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

I just had an awesome thought with Corrupted Lay Lines:  unless it's a poison or burning centric crew I'm against, I'm going to start every game with the Lodestone on a Guilty and attempt to take the center marker turn 1 and let them kill it!

If it dies, more cards in hand... if it lives, points!

Just watch out for lures and the like. Wp 4 can make it easy for the enemy to move it away from the strategy markers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 hours ago, Axelst said:

Just watch out for lures and the like. Wp 4 can make it easy for the enemy to move it away from the strategy markers.

Yeah, in my experience (one game xD) you want to lock down lodestone carriers rather than kill them.

Killing them boosts the lodestone to a solid position usually. Moving them or engaging them or slowing them really hurts.

[touchdown]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, in my experience (one game xD) you want to lock down lodestone carriers rather than kill them.

Killing them boosts the lodestone to a solid position usually. Moving them or engaging them or slowing them really hurts.

This sounds like Ronin will be incredible for the strat. Those bonus moves to get out of engagement, and if you need to throw the stone somewhere you can seppuku

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, touchdown said:

This sounds like Ronin will be incredible for the strat. Those bonus moves to get out of engagement, and if you need to throw the stone somewhere you can seppuku

Wow, seppuku is super good.

First turn claim a marker. Second turn seppuku it to teleport it 12+ inches.

[LexLock]

With Ashes & Dust being nerfed into a state of fairness I find myself looking for a replacement versatile beater in my non Leveticus crews.

I used A&D sort of like a Rider model and now I'm feeling that hole in my hiring options. 

Taylor is meh even with the Viks, our Emissary is a support piece, we don't get a Rider and our strongest beaters are ranged models that can't tarpit.

I'm looking at Montresor or The Desolation Engine who are both kinda slow but very tanky, any other suggestions?

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

1 hour ago, LexLock said:

With Ashes & Dust being nerfed into a state of fairness I find myself looking for a replacement versatile beater in my non Leveticus crews.

I used A&D sort of like a Rider model and now I'm feeling that hole in my hiring options. 

Taylor is meh even with the Viks, our Emissary is a support piece, we don't get a Rider and our strongest beaters are ranged models that can't tarpit.

I'm looking at Montresor or The Desolation Engine who are both kinda slow but very tanky, any other suggestions?

Not sure if Deso is worth it. Have you already tried it? Personally, I haven't, but I have played against it several times and ALWAYS was able to kill it very quickly. I don't recall it having any serious impact on the game, except the fact that I had to take it into account and figure out how to neutralize it in the most effective way. I'm not saying it to brag, just expressing my lack of confidence in this model.

I am also sceptical about Montresor. He seems to bring very little for his cost outside the keyword. As I understand, you're looking for non-ranged tarpit, which excludes Mad Dog and Alyce; have you been thinking of Barbaros? He is a tarpit by design.

[Jesy Blue]

I will always vote Arik....absolutely versatile, durable, hits like a truck, counters flying and summoning by existing, and mobile.

[LexLock]

4 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I will always vote Arik....absolutely versatile, durable, hits like a truck, counters flying and summoning by existing, and mobile.

Oof, not sure I can stomach 8 wounds on an 11 cost, even with his defenses.

Barbaros just seems really mediocre to me, but maybe he can work.

[RisingPhoenix]

I'm sad to say I think our best flanking beater is still A&D OOK.  Not because he's OP, but because we don't have too many options.  Hannah has also been nerfed for that role.  I think Outcasts really aren't supposed to bring OOK.

Because of that I just have to recommend Von Schill.  He's a mite pricy, but a lot of our crews can make good use of the Pull trigger, and hey for Public Enemies he's an ugly 3 points to earn.  12 wounds, armor 1, survivalist, blast resistant, and can give rats and guilty rocket launchers.  

[Jesy Blue]

Malifaux Rats are Beasts... no Equipment for them.

Although I did hire him with Zipp and put Equipment on Flying Piglets because they are Undead & not Beasts.

[touchdown]

fwiw I think Taelor makes more sense ook than in, but I think 10 stones is a high price for what she brings