The new Reva.

[NoisyAssassin]

Haven't ever played Reva, but I've got some experience with Breath of Fire on Mei Feng. It's usually a so-so ability, but if you can land the severe double-blast damage against bunched up enemies it's insane. Managed to hit 4 models with it once against Crossroads, which meant 17 damage (after burning) with a single attack. Don't remember if it was end of T1 or T2, but opponent scooped shortly thereafter. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, NoisyAssassin said:

Haven't ever played Reva, but I've got some experience with Breath of Fire on Mei Feng. It's usually a so-so ability, but if you can land the severe double-blast damage against bunched up enemies it's insane. Managed to hit 4 models with it once against Crossroads, which meant 17 damage (after burning) with a single attack. Don't remember if it was end of T1 or T2, but opponent scooped shortly thereafter. 

Haha, epic!

My experience with blasts is I massively underestimate them because they can be tricky to setup or look weak on paper, but when I actively work to use then they are devastating.

Projectile vomit is a good example. 1 damage, 1 poison, 1 distracted is okay. Doing that 4 times in one action is broken.

Some matchups just end up with everyone bunching up (like Nekima on Reckoning), and blasts you don't need a suit for just feel so reliable in times like that.

Much stronger than Archie's blast with superior damage, but no focus and needs a suit.

[Gloomy]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

How are people finding Breath of fire on the lampad?

It's ok. I think it should have a stat 6 to be honest. As said above its much better as a focused attack to try and get that severe double blast. 

[ShinChan]

With Stat 5, you're not going to be hitting those blast reliable. I usually stack 2-3 focus on the Lampad turn 1 and I never hit a severe for the damage. It's also true that I usually use the severes I draw in more important models, so unless it comes in the straight damage flip (hitting with focus) I won't get it. With Mei Feng is easier, first because of mobility, stat 6 and being a SS user.

Is it nice when it happens? Yes, does, but it's anecdotal based on how often it happens and taking into account all the setup (and your opponent failing to position well). Lampads should have better defenses, but specially, any of their attacks needs a bump to Stat 6 at the very least (ideally better triggers).

@Wintergloom Vicent is a nice pick, in the proper situations. Ignoring Incorporeal, HtW and Friendly Fire makes him really good vs certain crews, but definitely is not a must pick. IF the Crossbow had a trigger with to take the Cremation action, then he would make it to the 80-90% of my lists instead of the current 40-60%.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just had a game this week with a Lampad against a crew that bunched up for pulses. I found the Breath of Fire was super good for draining severes from my opponents hand.

Thanks to focus, I was typically winning the initial duel. So he had to choose between letting me have it, or cheating a super high severe to stop me from landing it. If he cheated high, I didn't cheat and gained a bit of card advantage.

I think I only landed the attack once, but drained 2-3 severes with it which felt sweet.

Can definitely see why people dislike the model, but stat six would be pretty crazy. That'd start being carrion emissary level of power (at least in terms of attack).

EDIT: I also had the "let them bleed" scheme, so Lampad distributing a bit of burning everywhere was key to my plan for scoring.

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can definitely see why people dislike the model, but stat six would be pretty crazy. That'd start being carrion emissary level of power (at least in terms of attack).

I've seen this issue on a couple models, and I wonder if there's a possible solution, that splits the difference?

Either as an ability or a trigger. Reword to fit either.

Flickering Flame: Once per action, increase the duel total of this action by 1. Any damage flips incur an additional .

So it's Stat 5 for all intents and purposes for getting the Blasts off, but it's essentially Stat 6 of you're just needing that minimum 2+Burning.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

I've seen this issue on a couple models, and I wonder if there's a possible solution, that splits the difference?

Either as an ability or a trigger. Reword to fit either.

Flickering Flame: Once per action, increase the duel total of this action by 1. Any damage flips incur an additional .

So it's Stat 5 for all intents and purposes for getting the Blasts off, but it's essentially Stat 6 of you're just needing that minimum 2+Burning.

I think that gets a bit complex. It is a cool ability, though! Could so just increase the melee attack to stat 6.

[Morgan Vening]

12 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think that gets a bit complex. It is a cool ability, though! Could so just increase the melee attack to stat 6.

Oh, possibly. Might not be a route they want to go down, but there is precedent, with Mei Feng and the Monk Keyword have similarish abilities.

I've just seen the argument a fair bit, that Stat X isn’t enough, but Stat X+1 is probably too much. As long as the Min damage isn't too excessive (and if it's a buily in trigger, it reduces other shenanigan combinations, and makes it counterable by Stunned), it fixes that issue.

Though yeah, it might make it overly complicated. 

[LexLock]

What about to the attack in exchange for to damage?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, LexLock said:

What about to the attack in exchange for to damage?

That breaks it a bit. The ability is only good when it has a straight damage flip.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just giving them blaze of glory would probably work.  Burning is a resource you already have to manage, so it isn't like it is just completely free.

[Da Git]

I reckon breath of fire is fine as is and would increase Flaming Fury as currently, I'd always take Breath of Fire over it unless I want the extra movement of a charge or need to engage. 

That said, I reckon the Son of a Breach guy had it right with dropping them to 6ss and 7hp.

The bigger issue to me is the Draugr needing a few more health. Bump them up a SS to 8 with 9hp. That way they can actually survive a bit to attack/heal. I'd also like to see a trigger on Cremation to make it an action worth taking. 

[Gloomy]

There's a lot of Reva threads on the go, but I think this post goes here. Played another 2 games with Reva this week and just wanted to share my experience

Game 1 - Reva v Wong - Corner Symbols of Authority, 6-5 Win

Game 2 - Reva v Tara - Standard Corrupted Leylines, 8-4 Win

I ran pretty much the same list in both games and took both the same schemes which were - Claim Jump on the Grave Golem and Catch and Release on a Lampad. I scored full points on both schemes in both games.

List was: Reva +2 Corpse candles 

Grave Golem (10)

Anna Lovelace (10+1)

Lampad with GST (8+2)

Draugr (7)

Sheild Bearer (6)

Cache - 6ss

2nd game I switched out the shield bearer for the carrion emissary and ran with a 2ss cache

Game 1 Thoughts: Anna Lovelace was the MVP of this game because of her Gravity Well. It completely ruined the Pigapults day which was the main reason I took her. The Grave Golem is easy claim jump points especially with the amount of corpse markers being put out. Shield bearer died turn 2 without really doing anything. I'm really enjoying the Draugr's Draw off flame action which I used in this game to teleport and take a Symbols marker, I've still yet to have a Draugr reach turn 5 but they are fantastic. Lampads are really good at catch and release as they are mobile and can easily move out of engagement with Hovering Flame. They also stick around with their demise ability. I'm still not sure if they're worth 8. I'll have to see when C&R is not in the pool. Reva herself killed a couple of things but then I used her Mv 7 to go chasing after Symbols. Symbols in Corner is tough, there were a couple I just couldn't get to

Game 2 Thoughts: Took Anna again with the idea of her aura limiting unburying. This didn't really come in to play as she ended up being away from the action. I did however get to detonate lots of zombies which was fun. Grave Golem and Lampad did exactly what they were supposed to and scored me my 4 scheme points whilst stacking lots of burning for Reva to use. The Carrion emissary which replaced the Shield bearer was great popping out zombies for anna to detonate whilst blocking up lanes for my opponent. Reva killed Sue a Void Hunter and the Nothing Beast in the first few turns. By turn 4 I was pretty confident I was getting a full 8 points so I charged Reva and Carrion into  the opponents crew for denial. Reva died at the end of turn 4 but I was fine with that as she'd already done a lot. My takeaway from this game was that I'd rather have had another Lampad instead of Anna and +3ss in the cache. It would have been nice for carrying the lodestone.

So that's 3 games with new Reva and I'm really liking her. Being able to pull burning for positives is amazing. I still haven't used Feed on Grief or Unquiet Dead much. It seems like most of the time its far more optimal to be Ethereal Reaping, the other 2 actions seem more situational. Draugr are glass cannons but I think they're great, you just have to make sure you get the most out of them before they die. I'm not impressed with Shield bearers as they die so easily, in both games I used one they didn't make it past turn 2, Armour +1 and Hard to kill is ok but with Def4 and only 5 wounds they don't last (I really miss the 2e coming back as a ghost thing). Vincent's too expensive and useful only in certain match ups. Carrion Emissary and Grave Golem are both great picks for Reva. Lampads are good too but still seem a little overpriced, I thing if they had a stat 6 on their Breath of Fire action they would be fine for 8ss

Gonna keep playing revenant and try out some different builds and schemes. Think next game I'm gonna take a pure revenant list just to see how it performs, but my guess is this crew will work a lot better with Versatile models than the keyword models

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Wintergloom said:

Game 1 Thoughts: Anna Lovelace was the MVP of this game because of her Gravity Well. It completely ruined the Pigapults day which was the main reason I took her. The Grave Golem is easy claim jump points especially with the amount of corpse markers being put out. Shield bearer died turn 2 without really doing anything. I'm really enjoying the Draugr's Draw off flame action which I used in this game to teleport and take a Symbols marker, I've still yet to have a Draugr reach turn 5 but they are fantastic. Lampads are really good at catch and release as they are mobile and can easily move out of engagement with Hovering Flame. They also stick around with their demise ability. I'm still not sure if they're worth 8. I'll have to see when C&R is not in the pool. Reva herself killed a couple of things but then I used her Mv 7 to go chasing after Symbols. Symbols in Corner is tough, there were a couple I just couldn't get to

Game 2 Thoughts: Took Anna again with the idea of her aura limiting unburying. This didn't really come in to play as she ended up being away from the action. I did however get to detonate lots of zombies which was fun. Grave Golem and Lampad did exactly what they were supposed to and scored me my 4 scheme points whilst stacking lots of burning for Reva to use. The Carrion emissary which replaced the Shield bearer was great popping out zombies for anna to detonate whilst blocking up lanes for my opponent. Reva killed Sue a Void Hunter and the Nothing Beast in the first few turns. By turn 4 I was pretty confident I was getting a full 8 points so I charged Reva and Carrion into  the opponents crew for denial. Reva died at the end of turn 4 but I was fine with that as she'd already done a lot. My takeaway from this game was that I'd rather have had another Lampad instead of Anna and +3ss in the cache. It would have been nice for carrying the lodestone.

So that's 3 games with new Reva and I'm really liking her. Being able to pull burning for positives is amazing. I still haven't used Feed on Grief or Unquiet Dead much. It seems like most of the time its far more optimal to be Ethereal Reaping, the other 2 actions seem more situational. Draugr are glass cannons but I think they're great, you just have to make sure you get the most out of them before they die. I'm not impressed with Shield bearers as they die so easily, in both games I used one they didn't make it past turn 2, Armour +1 and Hard to kill is ok but with Def4 and only 5 wounds they don't last (I really miss the 2e coming back as a ghost thing). Vincent's too expensive and useful only in certain match ups. Carrion Emissary and Grave Golem are both great picks for Reva. Lampads are good too but still seem a little overpriced, I thing if they had a stat 6 on their Breath of Fire action they would be fine for 8ss

Gonna keep playing revenant and try out some different builds and schemes. Think next game I'm gonna take a pure revenant list just to see how it performs, but my guess is this crew will work a lot better with Versatile models than the keyword models

That's not actually bad! One OOK and one versatile model is pretty standard. Even Molly for example (with a very powerful keyword) still snags stuff OOK and versatile all the time. You still have three keyword hires (in game two you had 3 versatile/ooks, but you wished you had snagged a lampad instead?)

Totally agree Reva is basically an ethereal reaping beater, with the others sometimes being relevant. I've never used Feed on Grief on any model at any point... But I can see how it'd be useful in theory. Unquiet dead I often forget to use, but when going for a card draining strategy it can be devastating. Keep an eye out for card-hungry crews, especially with weak willpower. It will do 4-6 damage in some situations. With perdition's flame, it is particularly potent now (but usually you're using low masks for something else, so a bit tricky). The stars really have to align on that one though (I've never used it successfuly, just had it used successfully against me).

That last part (pure revenant list), I strongly agree with. I think for any new crew you want to stick in keyword for a while to get a feel for the crew and what it is up to.

[unti]

What do you think about mourners in a reva crew?

I was thinking about using them for their turn corpse to scheme marker aura for schemes like runic binding, leave your mark and research mission...

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, unti said:

What do you think about mourners in a reva crew?

I was thinking about using them for their turn corpse to scheme marker aura for schemes like runic binding, leave your mark and research mission...

I think most people feel they fit better in other crews, but they could fill certain gaps.

One rough thing is the corpse candles (probably) don't count as scheme markers because they're insignificant.

Scarlet temptation and weeping widow don't have much synergy with the crew.

That said, if you are shy exactly one corpse marker for your first turn sequencing and can see a use for some of the abilities, it is worth considering Mourners.

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, unti said:

What do you think about mourners in a reva crew?

I was thinking about using them for their turn corpse to scheme marker aura for schemes like runic binding, leave your mark and research mission...

They're not bad, they're just not great. Not super fast, a bit tanky (unless they want it dead, then it's going to die...), not super hitty. High level players will probably be able to see what you're doing with corpse --> scheme markers, but it'll get a lot of players for a while.

That said, if your opponent lets them live and you can get one in there, Reva's pretty guaranteed for The Unquiet Dead/Feed on Grief (this is about the only time you'll use this attack! Especially if you can get the triggers). Combo with Anna & maybe Bete for a nice little core. Also if you have a Shieldbearer with GST nearby and he Takes the Hit, the opponent is on neg for Terror!

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think most people feel they fit better in other crews, but they could fill certain gaps.

One rough thing is the corpse candles (probably) don't count as scheme markers because they're insignificant.

Scarlet temptation and weeping widow don't have much synergy with the crew.

That said, if you are shy exactly one corpse marker for your first turn sequencing and can see a use for some of the abilities, it is worth considering Mourners.

Corpse Candles (& Mindless Zombies) will still count as scheme markers as you're not using the model as a Corpse marker (at least that's how I read it).

[Maniacal_cackle]

In terms of wp duels to combo with for Mourners, some possibilities include:

• Models with spirit barrage, particularly Manos for the pulse stagger combo.
• Blood poisoning on Sebastian (eh.... Not great outside of a McMourning crew).
• Philip and the Nanny for One More Question (actually a very strong ability to begin with against the right crews). Plus P&N's aura is actually quite brutal if you fail it.
• Projected voice on Ikyro (only in a Kirai crew though).
• Horrifying whispers for Hanged
• A bunch of Transmortis models for their stunned + trigger.

And possibly others. 

Which also makes me think Lampads should have an attack against Willpower, "Embrace the Flames: Target a model in base contact with a pyre marker. Target pushes to the (centre) of the pyre marker and takes damage equal to its burning condition (up to a maximum of 4)." EDIT: This is probably not quite the right design, as it resolves in an annoying fashion (the burning applies after the damage).

[Da Git]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Which also makes me think Lampads should have an attack against Willpower, "Embrace the Flames: Target a model in base contact with a pyre marker. Target pushes to the (centre) of the pyre marker and takes damage equal to its burning condition (up to a maximum of 4)." EDIT: This is probably not quite the right design, as it resolves in an annoying fashion (the burning applies after the damage).

Embrace the Flame is already an action... Also, this is basically a Death Urge with a shorter Push, and the damage part could be a Trigger. Pg 15 of rulebook

Quote

Toward and Away
If something ismoving “toward” an object it must move toward the center of that object

Therefore (at least by my understanding!) is that models entre the Pyre marker with Death Urge & Vincent's Carry the Flame trigger as the model/marker is pushed to the centre of the object

[Maniacal_cackle]

50 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Therefore (at least by my understanding!) is that models entre the Pyre marker with Death Urge & Vincent's Carry the Flame trigger as the model/marker is pushed to the centre of the object

That's how I play it too, but I just put it in brackets to clarify that was the intent. If that ends up not being the official ruling, then it doesn't quite work.

50 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Also, this is basically a Death Urge with a shorter Push, and the damage part could be a Trigger. Pg 15 of rulebook

That's true, would make sense to make it a Death Urge and then have a built-in trigger for damage. But then it would possibly end up being too powerful (a reposition of the enemy model AND they're in hazardous terrain when they weren't previously AND a bunch of damage). However, there'd be so many ways you could tinker the ability, and it would require a lot of setup. So actually would be quite a neat and synergistic thing to do!

[MrPieChee]

The trigger could add extra burning instead of damage....

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

The trigger could add extra burning instead of damage....

I think one of the issues is that burning is just fundamentally a pretty weak condition.

Staggered, stunned, distracted, and slow just have devastating limitations on actions right now (and the reverse for focused/fast). Injured and adversary can kill you the turn they're applied.

Burning and poison MIGHT kill you sometime later in the game (after you've taken a bunch of actions). They're just very limited conditions in that you aren't really restricting the opponent's options that much. And with burning, if they desperately need the model they can even assist the burning off. Distracted almost falls into this category as well, as they can still do tons of stuff even when distracted.

So having abilities to just hand out more burning isn't really useful without a payoff. That's why McMourning and co have blood poisoning - a specific mechanism for a poison payoff. Reva needs something like that if she is going to bother putting it on enemies. If she isn't going to bother putting it on enemies, lampads feel a bit silly.

[solkan]

If you want Burning mostly for damage, that’s probably for Kaeris’s keyword.

The damage for Burning In Revenant is probably mostly a side effect, using Burning for Pyres and to get bonuses is probably the focus here.

[Gloomy]

10 hours ago, solkan said:

The damage for Burning In Revenant is probably mostly a side effect, using Burning for Pyres and to get bonuses is probably the focus here.

Yeah setting opponents on fire is seems to be incidental, it's far more important to set your own models on fire. Apart from the Draugr's Draw off Flame action cane be useful if your opponents on fire

[Maniacal_cackle]

That's part of the issue for Lampads really.

At their core, they're designed to set opponents on fire without a payoff for doing so.

If I was to propose a redesign for Reva, I'd make her like Zoraida but with a special form of obey - only works on friendlies, or enemies with 3 or more burning. Call it burning devotion or something.

A cool unique payoff for the burning mechanic.

According to her story, people should flock to support her. And it ties in the sacred flames thing.