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GG1 FAQ and Errata: NVB changes

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GG1 is here! Let's check the relevant changes for NVB:

Errata:

Stitched Together

  • Fiendish Gamble is in replace of Cheating Fate instead of flipping a card.
  • Gamble Your Life is now an Attack Action resisted by Wp, with TN increased from 10 to 13.
  • Gamble Your Life stat reduced from 6:ToS-Tome: to 6.
  • Text of Gamble Your Life changed to: “Enemy only. If this Action fails, this model suffers the effects as though the defending model was taking this Action targeting this model. Target suffers 3/4/5 damage.”
  • Df reduced from 6 to 5.

The First Mate

  • Gained Beast Characteristic.
  • Carry the Loot Removed.
  • Anchor stat reduced from 6:ram to 6.

Zoraida

  • Eyes in the Night distance reduced from 12" to a 12.
  • Mv reduced from 5 to 4.
  • Cost increased by 1.
  • Voodoo Effigy Ability Timing changed from Start of Activation to End of Activation.

Order Initiate

  • Cost decreased by 1.

Agent 46

  • Inhuman Physiology changed from Ability to a Bonus (:ToS-Fast:) Action that lasts until the End Phase.

Inhuman reflexes

  • Butterfly Jump replaced with Scamper.

 

Errata Rules:

  • Pg 12. Actions Generated by Triggers Callout – Paragraph 2
  • Change the text of the paragraph to: “Actions generated by Triggers (and any subsequent Actions generated) cannot declare Triggers, and like other generated Actions, they do not count against a model’s Action limit.”

Big hit to Marcus.

  • Pg 34. Damage Timing – Paragraph 1
  • Change the text of the first paragraph to the following text: “When a model suffers damage, it follows the timing structure below. If any model suffers damage as a result of an effect generated during this timing structure, the damage timing for that model is resolved after completely resolving all (6) steps of the initial damage timing, in the order in which the damage was generated. If multiple models suffer damage at the same time (such as from a Shockwave or B), resolve the damage timing of each model completely one at a time.”

This will probably affect more things I don't identify right now, but Nephilims hitted by area damage in range of Hayreddin will have a harder time healing.

  • Pg 32. Replace
  • The Rules and Steps for replacing models were adjusted to the following:
  • If any original model(s) had Activated, all new models are treated as having Activated; otherwise, new models are considered not to have Activated. If this Replace occurred during an original model’s Activation, one new model may instead continue that Activation using any remaining Actions.

Coryphee + Vasilisa combo is not legal.

 

Relevant FAQs:

  • 12. Can Once per Activation effects occur outside an Activation, such as during the Start or End Phases?
  • a) No. Effects that are restricted to Once per Activation can only be used during a model’s Activation, i.e. Steps C.1 – C.4 of the Activation phase (pg. 21).

Mysery not working with Tangled Threads.

  • 6. Does the Stat of an Action include any Fate modifiers or suits printed next to the numerical value?
  • a) No. The Stat of an Action only ever refers to the numerical value listed in the Stat section. If a model takes a Action and has a specific Stat for that Action, it will still include any modifiers or suits added to that Action’s duel provided by the Action.

 

  • 1. Stealth – If a model is drawing LoS through another object to target a model with Stealth (via another Ability such as Zoraida’s Eyes in the Night), does the initial model taking the Action need to be within 6" of the target?
  • a) No. Only the object from which LoS is dr awn needs to be within 6" of th e targeted model with Stealth.

 

  • 4. Cruel Disappointment – If a model would suffer damage from the Red Joker (Severe +1), does it still reduce the damage to Moderate?
  • a) Yes. The model would only suffer Moderate damage. Although the Red Joker deals an amount of damage equal to Severe +1, it counts as dealing Severe damage for the purposes of any rules which reference damage categories.

 

  • 6. Blade Rush – Is damage from Blade Rush treated as damage from the Charge Action?
  • a) No. The damage from Blade Rush is generated by the Ability as a result of taking the Action, not the Action itself.

 

  • 1. Nekima – Can Nekima Push and take a y Action as a result of a friendly Nephilim model being killed within range of her Enraged By Insolence Action?
  • a) No. “Another” always refers to “not the model from which this t ext is written” except in those instances where the model in which “Another” is written would not always be a legal subject of the sentence, such as “Another Scrap Marker”, or “Another enemy model”. In such cases, “Another” will never refer to the previous legal subject.

Good to know how to read "Another", on the other hand this isn't a good day for Nekima...

  • 3. Euripides – Are the Ice Pillar Markers generated by the Frozen Domain Trigger counted as an “Ice Pillar Created this way” for the purposes of the Rune-Etched Ice Action’s effect?
  • a) Yes. This Trigger is being used ot alter the effect of the Action, thus the second Ice Pillar Marker is Created before the p effect of Rune-Etched Ice is resolved.

It was implied, but it's good to see it explicit as the timing doesn't match.

 

Some personal notes:

Dreamer got Stitcheds nerfed; but at least he get something in return; now they can heal and unbury other nightmares with the Wp duel and can decide to use Fiendish Gamble after flipping; this needs testing to see well the changes but they will be now much worse in a crew without LD for sure.

Nekima got a pretty big nerf as she is by far the most reliant master on the defense and mobility of IR and she also loses the extra charges and some healing potential with the damage changes.

Zoraida got some minor nerfs herself (but now it's easier summon the Vodoo doll tho), the first mate's damage got hit (but now he may get mutations tho) and stitcheds nerf also hit her closely.

Lucius got the Agent nerfed, this affects more his sniper crew build because now IP and Mimic can't be used together; also the IR change also hurts him as now minions will be harder to keep alive; probably it's safer going double BBS than Mature with IR now.

Marcus got hit by the charge trigger nerf, which is worse in NVB than in ARC. I don't like these changes as they manage to leave the strongest ARC combo (Attuned cats) more or less the same while weakening the Marcus' NVB strongest points (IR+Hunter's Call and our non-Adaptive evolution beasts; so less oportunities to use Marcus AP to cicle mutations instead of using Hunter's Call). On the bright side, Initiates could be worth a go now...

Euripides is also afected by the IR change, as he relies on it to keep his minions beaters alive more than other keywords.

Imo the worse change for the faction is the IR one by far, as it affects all masters and weaken the main defensive upgrade in a generally glassy faction without easy access to defensive tech like shielded or take the hit; and this one will affect more to those keywords relying on minions as the Henchmans/Masters can just get a few extra SS and call it a day. I hope this one won't be too much.

This is an overall nerf to the faction; but in general the whole Errata is more all about nerfs than buffs and BS like Devastation or Drunken Kung Fu has been also nerfed; so we'll see.

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So opponents may now cheat vs stitched, correct? And on top of that the TN is upped to 13 and its no longer a tactical. So it doesn't get around defensive tech anymore, and basically you must reserve a 12-13 to even want to attempt it... at least it encourages your opponents to hang onto their high cards I guess. Interesting to see how large the impact will be.

Gonna miss inhuman reflexes big time, definitely the biggest hit. 

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6 minutes ago, Ezuma said:

So opponents may now cheat vs stitched, correct? And on top of that the TN is upped to 13 and its no longer a tactical. So it doesn't get around defensive tech anymore, and basically you must reserve a 12-13 to even want to attempt it... at least it encourages your opponents to hang onto their high cards I guess. Interesting to see how large the impact will be.

It's now an attack action, so everything applies to it now (also things like Chi and accuracy). The good thing is you may also cheat it and Fiendish Gamble let you cheat now, you may risk to flip and only cheat your removed 12 or 13 if your flip is lower or if the other player cheats (which will pressure his hand), and that also make Fiendish Gamble a better defensive ability, however that 1 less Df point hurts. They are also better versus low Wp models (and worse versus high WP ones)...

They have lost some punch, but the Fiendish Gamble change is bigger than it looks and they can unbury and heal, so it's hard to evaluate them right now.

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Stitched are such an elegant change.

Attack action was necessary, dropping no cheating was probably wise. Making it WP gives better keyword synergy. Nerfing defenses was a reasonable call. And making fiendish gamble a cheat instead of a flip is a nice buff to cancel out some of the losses.

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Good points all I, I've neglected Dreamer for a few weeks now and totally failed to notice the benefit of making it a WP attack. 

It was inevitable they would get altered and actually from thinking about it a bit, the changes aren't as harsh as I initially suspected -except for inhuman reflexes. I'm a bit choked there 

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The inhuman reflexes thing is going to kill the faction.  It was an overreaction to people who don't understand how easy it is to kill NVB complaining about a 3" push because they didn't bring any ranged tech.  Nekima is basically dead in the water now since matures get no benefit from it worth its cost and Nekima is not a master that requires much cheating to hit (I blame Kharnage for smashing LVO).  Pandora and Candy will love it but that's at the cost of Marcus, Nekima, Lucius, Euripides, and Dreamer.  Geryon are no longer very tanky since they can't stay alive reliably vs 2" reach models (ie all big beaters).  

I'm not exactly sure how wyrd's testing crew managed to keep their NVB models alive during the supposed testing of these changes...

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On the one hand, I kinda disagree.

These are fresh changes. Try them out. The people who made them tested them more than we have.

Certainly for Nightmare, inhuman reflexes seemed largely unnecessary (except for claim jump). Solid positioning protects pieces just as well a lot of the time.

On the other hand... I kinda agree.

People buy and form crews on the basis of certain stats. Large power level errata should be done cautiously, IMO. Definitely feels like too much in some instances.

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8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On the one hand, I kinda disagree.

These are fresh changes. Try them out. The people who made them tested them more than we have.

Certainly for Nightmare, inhuman reflexes seemed largely unnecessary (except for claim jump). Solid positioning protects pieces just as well a lot of the time.

On the other hand... I kinda agree.

People buy and form crews on the basis of certain stats. Large power level errata should be done cautiously, IMO. Definitely feels like too much in some instances.

Nightmare, Fae, and Woe aren't so bad with this update because they, unlike most of the other parts of the faction, have defensive tech.  Terrifying, armor, and Incoporeal.  The other 4 factions relied solely on positioning, and nerfing this has nerfed those 4, 3 of which weren't exactly top tier to begin with.  I really have no idea what exactly Nekima is supposed to do with these changes, since now she literally has no defenses that don't rely on her opponent needing to cheat, which for a faction that is df5 on average...

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One change to Stitched that might seem subtle... if you target a model with Terrifying and fail the terrifying check, you take the gamble damage since the action failed...

Nice catch Wyrd -_-

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6 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

One change to Stitched that might seem subtle... if you target a model with Terrifying and fail the terrifying check, you take the gamble damage since the action failed...

Nice catch Wyrd -_-

Well, I mean... They can still reasonably easily set up a guaranteed 3/4/5 damage track (outside of flipping the black joker) against most models (wp 5 or lower), and have good odds against everything else.

If hitting a model you might miss... Don't use an ability called "gamble your life."

I wish my six cost models could do that in Ressers.

Stitched were the main model I advocated for a nerf for pre errata, they definitely needed it (though for a long time I argued they were fine).

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1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, I mean... They can still reasonably easily set up a guaranteed 3/4/5 damage track (outside of flipping the black joker) against most models (wp 5 or lower), and have good odds against everything else.

If hitting a model you might miss... Don't use an ability called "gamble your life."

I wish my six cost models could do that in Ressers.

Stitched were the main model I advocated for a nerf for pre errata, they definitely needed it (though for a long time I argued they were fine).

They needed nerf... they didn't need to be run over with a steam roller and be made trash.

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2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

(I blame Kharnage for smashing LVO).

Yeah... Now thank me that it's Scamper and not access to the Quick Getaway Df only trigger found on the Captain. 
Pushing for this in beta was like pulling teeth.

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6 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Yeah... Now thank me that it's Scamper and not access to the Quick Getaway Df only trigger found on the Captain. 
Pushing for this in beta was like pulling teeth.

I mean to be fair, pushing for any benefits for NVB is like trying to climb a waterfall with three limbs tied behind your back XD

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1 minute ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean to be fair, pushing for any benefits for NVB is like trying to climb a waterfall with three limbs tied behind your back XD

With this description, I am more impressed with the headway we made 

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1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

They needed nerf... they didn't need to be run over with a steam roller and be made trash.

Haha, you are pretty awesome with your descriptions, I'll give you that.

I suggest testing them out first. I've had plenty of games where I didn't even need 'gamble your life' with Stitched. They do so much useful stuff even if the ability was deleted. Adding in access to a willpower attack, and they now do the one thing they couldn't before (they were the only summon that couldn't unbury other summons previously).

Overall, I imagine Dreamer is still going to clean house, and would do so even if they had gone extreme and nerfed Stitched twice as hard.

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Do I read correct that it is now confirmed, that mimic retains any built-in positives and suits. Some light in the darkness of playing Marcus and Lucius.. I think Marcus really did not need the nerf.☹️

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Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Haha, you are pretty awesome with your descriptions, I'll give you that.

I suggest testing them out first. I've had plenty of games where I didn't even need 'gamble your life' with Stitched. They do so much useful stuff even if the ability was deleted. Adding in access to a willpower attack, and they now do the one thing they couldn't before (they were the only summon that couldn't unbury other summons previously).

Overall, I imagine Dreamer is still going to clean house, and would do so even if they had gone extreme and nerfed Stitched twice as hard.

well said, Dreamer still stands above most Neverborn, and the stitched are probably still useful to boot, the more i think on it -though need to get some games in to really get a feel for it

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34 minutes ago, Pastori said:

Do I read correct that it is now confirmed, that mimic retains any built-in positives and suits. 

I mean that kinda does seem to what is implied... Also Lucius isn't hit that bad, just his main enforcers (you still have options like Hina and Thoon).

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One Stitched is now able to make two Stat6 vs WP Min3 attacks in one turn at 6” range. 

You can FG one, cheat in another, making them pretty reliable in this as well - you rarely win any important duels on less than a 7 anyways.

That’s pretty good for a 10 of Masks. That’s pretty good for 1 stone.

I wish, they’d dunked Mv rather than Df, though. I don’t see Insidious Madness competing with these guys in crew creation at all. 

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52 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

I wish, they’d dunked Mv rather than Df, though. I don’t see Insidious Madness competing with these guys in crew creation at all. 

Insidious madness are much better summons for tanking (such as resolving a terrify and dropping madness in the middle of the enemy crew).

And of course are far better for scheming.

So they're better summons in many situations and occasional hires (but really, daydreams are the only 'must hire' minion IMO).

On a different note... As a Dreamer player, an Ancient Pact nerf seems way scarier than Inhuman Reflexes. And given Dreamers power level, may have made sense to hit pact (and make it more useful to other crews).

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9 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

The inhuman reflexes thing is going to kill the faction.  It was an overreaction to people who don't understand how easy it is to kill NVB complaining about a 3" push because they didn't bring any ranged tech.  Nekima is basically dead in the water now since matures get no benefit from it worth its cost and Nekima is not a master that requires much cheating to hit (I blame Kharnage for smashing LVO).  Pandora and Candy will love it but that's at the cost of Marcus, Nekima, Lucius, Euripides, and Dreamer.  Geryon are no longer very tanky since they can't stay alive reliably vs 2" reach models (ie all big beaters).  

I'm not exactly sure how wyrd's testing crew managed to keep their NVB models alive during the supposed testing of these changes...

Marcus has his personal upgrade to give butterfly jump so I dont see him too affected by that particular change

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9 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

One change to Stitched that might seem subtle... if you target a model with Terrifying and fail the terrifying check, you take the gamble damage since the action failed...

Nice catch Wyrd -_-

I was thinking about this one, and I'm not sure how it's resolved.

Mainly, because if you fail the Terrifying effect, how do you determine the Accuracy Fate Modifier, as your opponent hasn't flipped a card yet?

Or do you just eat a straight 3/4/5, which even with A+1 still seems a little harsh?

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9 hours ago, Pastori said:

Do I read correct that it is now confirmed, that mimic retains any built-in positives and suits. Some light in the darkness of playing Marcus and Lucius.. I think Marcus really did not need the nerf.☹️

How do you read that? 

Does the Stat of an Action include any Fate modifiers or suits printed next to the numerical value?
a) No. The Stat of an Action only ever refers to the numerical value listed in the Stat section.

If a model takes a Action and has a specific Stat for that Action, it will still include any modifiers or suits added to that Action’s duel provided by the Action.

As I read this Stat is only ever the number, so if you mimic an action you only get the number you have already. The second part just says that fate modifiers and suits still gives a benefit. 

Doppelganger has a specific stat of 7 for her mimic ability that doesn't include any fate or suit modifiers, so she doesn't get any of those on a mimicked ability. 

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2 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

How do you read that? 

Does the Stat of an Action include any Fate modifiers or suits printed next to the numerical value?
a) No. The Stat of an Action only ever refers to the numerical value listed in the Stat section.

If a model takes a Action and has a specific Stat for that Action, it will still include any modifiers or suits added to that Action’s duel provided by the Action.

As I read this Stat is only ever the number, so if you mimic an action you only get the number you have already. The second part just says that fate modifiers and suits still gives a benefit. 

Doppelganger has a specific stat of 7 for her mimic ability that doesn't include any fate or suit modifiers, so she doesn't get any of those on a mimicked ability. 

Does the Stat of an Action include any Fate modifiers or suits printed next to the numerical value?

a) No. The Stat of an Action only ever refers to the numerical value listed in the Stat section.

If a model takes a Action and has a specific Stat for that Action, it will still include any modifiers or suits added to that Action’s duel provided by the Action.

 

The doppleganger mimics an action and has a stat of 7 for the action. According to this answer the action will still include any modifiers or suits added to that actions duel provided by  the action, so if the action mimicked was 5:+flip:ram, the doppleganger will take it at 7:+flip:ram because she replaces the actions stat of 5 with her stat of 7, but the action still includes the modifiers and suits provided by the action

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