GG1 FAQ and Errata: NVB changes

[Maniacal_cackle]

It is a big change defensively, but it is still just as annoying to plan around as IR.

Especially since if you use movement bonus actions (leap, ride with me, etc) and cheat them prior to combat, you cause a scamper that might mean you have to charge (and then they move again when you cheat that attack).

Just from a planning/deterrent angle I have found it to be quite annoying (though not as brutal as a mature with butterfly jump).

[Nagi21]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is a big change defensively, but it is still just as annoying to plan around as IR.

Especially since if you use movement bonus actions (leap, ride with me, etc) and cheat them prior to combat, you cause a scamper that might mean you have to charge (and then they move again when you cheat that attack).

Just from a planning/deterrent angle I have found it to be quite annoying (though not as brutal as a mature with butterfly jump).

Those bonus actions aren't particularly useful as they're outside the 6" bubble when that free movment happens, meaning that you will still be getting charged and attacked twice.  Coupled with the fact that you're going to 90% of the time take a hit when your opponent cheats unless they've flipped poorly, and that's the difference between life and death for a lot of our models who have no defensive tech at all.

Also this doubles down on our one main weakness:  Ranged weapons.  Any guns or long ranged spells, we're going to have to sit there and take it.  Sometimes I'm pretty sure the designers forget that they have a lot of guns in this game.

[Regelridderen]

Thanks for clarifying @Ogid  - I’m fortunate that my NVB Masters are Dreamer, ‘dora and Lucius. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Those bonus actions aren't particularly useful as they're outside the 6" bubble when that free movment happens, meaning that you will still be getting charged and attacked twice.  Coupled with the fact that you're going to 90% of the time take a hit when your opponent cheats unless they've flipped poorly, and that's the difference between life and death for a lot of our models who have no defensive tech at all.

Well, for example... My dead rider was ~4 inches from Nekima. I did not want to charge as I wanted to use that post scamper.

So I used Ride with Me, which failed off the top of the deck. I didn't cheat it as that'd give a reposition for her (making black blood more awkward or just avoiding my attack).

I didn't want to move into 0" because then I'd take black blood.

Leap on Archie came up in the same scenario. It was very awkward once the brawl started.

Not to mention the last point (cheating means they're going to take at least one hit...) Well, butterfly jump has the same issue. You typically take at least one hit.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, for example... My dead rider was ~4 inches from Nekima. I did not want to charge as I wanted to use that post scamper.

So I used Ride with Me, which failed off the top of the deck. I didn't cheat it as that'd give a reposition for her (making black blood more awkward or just avoiding my attack).

I didn't want to move into 0" because then I'd take black blood.

Lol, I think you cannot pick a worse example XD. A model with Scamper cannot run from him now.

Dead Rider may:

• Charge into b2b, he has range 2, scamper cannot escape the engagement range even cheating.
• Charge into range 2, if he needed to cheat he just has to use a fate token (unless it cheated a crow) to push that model back into b2b .
• Charge into range 2, if he needed to cheat, then he uses ride with me (if he has to also cheat ride with me, he only has to go into b2b), again with range 2 the model cannot go away.

Nekima (or any other model) is getting 2 attacks from him now every single time, cheating or not; 3 using the rebel ability. And other models have also a high chance to bypass it with Focused or auras.

And models are paying 2SS for that now...

[Maniacal_cackle]

21 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Lol, I think you cannot pick a worse example XD. A model with Scamper cannot run from him now.

Dead Rider may:

• Charge into b2b, he has range 2, scamper cannot escape the engagement range even cheating.
• Charge into range 2, if he needed to cheat he just has to use a fate token (unless it cheated a crow) to push that model back into b2b .
• Charge into range 2, if he needed to cheat, then he uses ride with me (if he has to also cheat ride with me, he only has to go into b2b), again with range 2 the model cannot go away.

Nekima (or any other model) is getting 2 attacks from him now every single time, cheating or not; 3 using the rebel ability. And other models have also a high chance to bypass it with Focused or auras.

And models are paying 2SS for that now...

I play it that scamper resolves after the current action, so if I use the trigger she still gets to scamper.

The Dead Rider was on three health. He couldn't afford to go into base contact and take the black blood damage (he was the victim of an alpha strike, which I managed to blunt enough to keep him alive).

I needed to be more than 1" and less than 2" away for both attacks. Scamper made that extremely awkward.

And of course for Archie, with his 1" range and needing to almost always cheat leap, it was basically impossible to land an attack without a charge.

Of course, this assumes resolving scamper after the action. If it resolves mid action, then it seems pretty bad.

[Ogid]

Versus Nephs it's a bit more akward than versus others if you want to minimice the BB damage; but you have options with the rider. It resolves after the action, but Scamper push is 2'' and dead rider engagement range is 2'', she will be in range as long as the dead rider is in b2b before the push.

Asuming you don't wan't to use the rebel and minimice the BB: Charging into 2'' the first hit won't damage you, cheated or not; if you have to cheat then let her leave and use Ride with me after it to position again in 2'' range (if you have to cheat again then you'll have to go into b2b with ride with me, and she may decide to stay in b2b to damage you). You have a fair chance to both ignore the upgrade and all BB damage, he will get 1 BB damage if you have to cheat both the attack and the ride with me.

With Archie isn't that reliable, but he may also minimice the upgrade effect. Now leaping is hardly an option versus her inside the aura with an unsuited leap; either jump outside of the aura range or use the new ability to get a  and hope to flip high enough in the attack; with a 6he has a high % to not having to cheat.

[Math Mathonwy]

I believe that @Maniacal_cackle's point was that the examples were real examples from a real game so theorycrafting all these options for theoretical situations is maybe not all that useful.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yes, as above, my opponent played well (other than messing up his alpha strike), and made it very difficult to cleanly do all those things. In theory it seems bad, but it was very awkward to play around.

We were playing reckoning, and black blood damage being generated 10+ times in a game REALLY adds up if your opponent is good at positioning. Scamper helped him with this.

I definitely don't think scamper is as good as inhuman reflexes for defense. But it has broader utility than just defense. It is very useful in offense as well.

I wouldn't dismiss it without extensive testing.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To elaborate on specific points:

Archie couldn't attack Nekima without leap (he was good at positioning and had mature neph locking down archie), so any option without leap was out.

Dead Rider couldn't get away with a double attack without getting hit by at least one black blood (and he had soulstones to eat damage. Dead rider was just going to die if it kept taking damage).

The number one defense of most of Neverborn is positioning advantages (especially with 2" engagement ranges). Yes butterfly jump is powerful, but can also be a crutch. Savvy positioning will create a lot more awkwardness than butterfly jump.

Incidentally, in exactly this scenario, butterfly jump would have been useless. I'd have used charge/ride/attack with rider and for Archie leap/attack nekima/flurry nearby mature neph/attack mature neph. So for exactly this scenario, scamper was better (even if it is worse on average and takes better positioning to abuse).

[Nagi21]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Not to mention the last point (cheating means they're going to take at least one hit...) Well, butterfly jump has the same issue. You typically take at least one hit.

Not exactly.  Let's run through this with stat 5 models:

Pre-nerf:

Your opponent beats you by one, you cheat, they dont.  You jump away.

Your opponent beats you by one, you don't cheat.  You jump away and take a hit.

Your opponent beats you by one, you cheat, they cheat.  You jump away and take a hit.

You beat your opponent by one.  They don't cheat.  You jump away.

You beat your opponent by one.  They cheat, you don't.  You jump away and take a hit.

You beat your opponent by one.  They cheat, you cheat.  You jump away.

 

Post-neft:

Your opponent beats you by one, you cheat, they dont.  You don't jump away.

Your opponent beats you by one, you don't cheat.  You don't jump away and take a hit.

Your opponent beats you by one, you cheat, they cheat.  You jump away and take a hit.

You beat your opponent by one.  They don't cheat.  You don't jump away.

You beat your opponent by one.  They cheat, you don't.  You jump away and take a hit.

You beat your opponent by one.  They cheat, you cheat.  You jump away.

 

So (someone double check my math), the issue isn't that you're taking more hits, it's that you've gone from jumping away 100% of the time to 50% of the time, and 50% of situations where you jump away without taking damage, to 16% of situations where you can jump away without taking damage, and that effectively costs 1 card to do it since your opponent is not going to cheat without beating you the first time.  So effectively the nerf has made it where you either take a hit to scamper, or have to (again effectively) discard a card to not take a hit and scamper.  Objectively (not including terrifying because math), the upgrade is somewhere between 50% and 25% as good as it was.  A massive nerf.

Also remember this only applies to melee... our ranged defenses are now effectively non-existent.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To elaborate on specific points:

Archie couldn't attack Nekima without leap (he was good at positioning and had mature neph locking down archie), so any option without leap was out.

In this particular scenario with Archie engaged the only posible solution to attack Nekima was either move Archie to break LoS with Nekima (using the Mature who is the same Sz and base), cheat leap (no LoS, no push), and then smash her face as usual, twice with flurry if you don't cheat the first attack. That or break LoS attacking Nekima with other model, so you can leap without being in range of the aura.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Incidentally, in exactly this scenario, butterfly jump would have been useless. I'd have used charge/ride/attack with rider and for Archie leap/attack nekima/flurry nearby mature neph/attack mature neph. So for exactly this scenario, scamper was better (even if it is worse on average and takes better positioning to abuse).

I give you this; leap and ride are good versus butterfly jump, good point.
However in this case is almost the same for the rider. As said above, he can attack twice without getting BB unless he is forced to cheat twice, getting 1 damage in that case.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

So (someone double check my math), the issue isn't that you're taking more hits, it's that you've gone from jumping away 100% of the time to 50% of the time, and 50% of situations where you jump away without taking damage, to 16% of situations where you can jump away without taking damage, and that effectively costs 1 card to do it since your opponent is not going to cheat without beating you the first time.  So effectively the nerf has made it where you either take a hit to scamper, or have to (again effectively) discard a card to not take a hit and scamper.  Objectively (not including terrifying because math), the upgrade is somewhere between 50% and 25% as good as it was.  A massive nerf.

It's way worse than that. The other player has the edge as the attack stats are usually higer than defensive stats, plus they still deal damage with a tie, no need to gain for 1. Also things like Focused or to duels will reduce even more the chance to get Scamper or force the NVB player to cheat a card 2 or 3 higher than the flipped by the attacker to trigger it. As said before, now the upgrade has a very high probability to do nothing if the other player set it up properly. And that's the big problem, how unreliable it is.

A recent example about the opinion of players about unreliable things; in the RES forums are now talking about the new Archie after removing the suit from leap and how he is going to be replaced for more reliable pieces for that role because unreliable models aren't competitive. Same case with this new upgrade, with the difference NVB doesn't have other reliable defensive tech to chose from.

[Adran]

 

8 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

So (someone double check my math), the issue isn't that you're taking more hits, it's that you've gone from jumping away 100% of the time to 50% of the time, and 50% of situations where you jump away without taking damage, to 16% of situations where you can jump away without taking damage, and that effectively costs 1 card to do it since your opponent is not going to cheat without beating you the first time.  So effectively the nerf has made it where you either take a hit to scamper, or have to (again effectively) discard a card to not take a hit and scamper.  Objectively (not including terrifying because math), the upgrade is somewhere between 50% and 25% as good as it was.  A massive nerf.

Also remember this only applies to melee... our ranged defenses are now effectively non-existent.

I've checked your maths and its wrong.

You haven't actually looked at the likelihood of those outcomes, so the claim that you jump away 50% of the time is based on each of those outcomes being equally likely, which it is not. (Its probably lower because we don't have infinite hands so typically they are only likely to be able to cheat 3-4 flips in a game, so the chnaces of it beign a flip against a model with scamper are pretty low, because given all other things being equal, I know I would rather cheat an attack against a non scamper model than against the scamper model if its my first attack of the game )

And objectively, even if Scamper is 25% as good as butterfly jump (I don't agree with this number), the upgrade gets you multiple abilities, so the upgrade would be between 62 and 75% as effective as it was (depending on you being a minion or not, and valuing each ability equally, which probably isn't the case).

If you want to look at the maths, you need to look in a lot more detail than that.

If you are hitting a model with Butterfly jump, you would normally use focus. If you are hitting a model with Scamper, are you going to use focus or hope for 2 attacks?.

If you're hitting a model with Scamper and you lose the duel are you going to cheat to hit, knowing they can then cheat back, and you don't get a second attack, or are you going to let that attack go and hope for the second attack? If you're hitting a model with Butterfly jump, you will cheat that attack almost all the time.

How important is it for your model to be able to move? If I attack an enemy model near the model with Scamper, and I'm winning the duel, they have the choice to cheat so I miss, but give my model a 2" push, or take the hit. Butterfly jump does not give that as an option at all.

I can't work out the maths (too much of it is based on player choice) but its much more complicated than you have suggested.

Ranged attacks probably average 10" (There are some 12 and 14, but there are also a lot of 8" and a few 6") so its possible that quite a few of themof them are going to affect Scamper.

[Ogid]

52 minutes ago, Adran said:

And objectively, even if Scamper is 25% as good as butterfly jump (I don't agree with this number), the upgrade gets you multiple abilities, so the upgrade would be between 62 and 75% as effective as it was (depending on you being a minion or not, and valuing each ability equally, which probably isn't the case).

While you are right the rest of the abilities are the same; the defensive part of the upgrade was why that was picked on most of models.

The ofensive/mobility part of the upgrade is good, but not that relevant for most of the rooster (Nekima, Marcus, Lucius and a few minions basically). But now even that part wil also work worse in everything taking in count the push is unreliable (and it won't disengage from mele range 2 getting into b2b) and that dead models are less likely to be able to use the other abilities.

52 minutes ago, Adran said:

If you are hitting a model with Butterfly jump, you would normally use focus. If you are hitting a model with Scamper, are you going to use focus or hope for 2 attacks?.

Problem is; supports giving Focused and Concentrating first turn is common practice (and that without taking in count things like built into duels, chi, auras and other duel shenanigans). Concentrate and attack once or attack twice won't be a choice most of the time, now that Scamper model has a more than fair chance to get hit by 2 Focused attacks.

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

 

I've checked your maths and its wrong.

You haven't actually looked at the likelihood of those outcomes, so the claim that you jump away 50% of the time is based on each of those outcomes being equally likely, which it is not. (Its probably lower because we don't have infinite hands so typically they are only likely to be able to cheat 3-4 flips in a game, so the chnaces of it beign a flip against a model with scamper are pretty low, because given all other things being equal, I know I would rather cheat an attack against a non scamper model than against the scamper model if its my first attack of the game )

I'm not using the math to calculate the infinite hands we could have/flip, only the number of different situations that can happen during a single action.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

If you are hitting a model with Butterfly jump, you would normally use focus. If you are hitting a model with Scamper, are you going to use focus or hope for 2 attacks?.

Scamper you would use focus just as well, because you don't want to have to cheat because you'd only get one hit instead of two.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

If you're hitting a model with Scamper and you lose the duel are you going to cheat to hit, knowing they can then cheat back, and you don't get a second attack, or are you going to let that attack go and hope for the second attack? If you're hitting a model with Butterfly jump, you will cheat that attack almost all the time.

This is actually better for you as an opponent.  If you don't cheat, you get a second chance to attack and may not have to cheat, and then if you lose the second flip, you can still cheat.  In the original you would have to cheat and hope for the best, or let them go regardless.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

How important is it for your model to be able to move? If I attack an enemy model near the model with Scamper, and I'm winning the duel, they have the choice to cheat so I miss, but give my model a 2" push, or take the hit. Butterfly jump does not give that as an option at all.

That's a thought which is why Pandora and Dreamer aren't that affected by this (ironically), but the crews that use that upgrade for direct defense are massively affected.  It doesn't even out and punishes already fragile crews.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Ranged attacks probably average 10" (There are some 12 and 14, but there are also a lot of 8" and a few 6") so its possible that quite a few of themof them are going to affect Scamper.

Average attack range for all abilities is between 10-12", however the attacks that are 6" and less are not significant (only two guns: sidearm and sawed-off shotgun, and a minority of attack spells).  Anything above 6" can safely stay out of scamper range, and most factions have access to a lot of 12"-14" weaponry (including the most common gun: the Clockwork Rifle).

[Regelridderen]

A quick question, rather than continueing making pointless comparison between Scamper and Butterfly Jump, wouldn’t it be more prudent to just accept the fact, and then ponder on how/where/when to make the most of it?

E.g. one practical use is, that it forces enemies to consider twice, whether they want to cheat something within a 6” radius and then risk being engaged by whatever carries inhuman Reflexes - or it engaging something else down the line.

Say an opponent wants to summon a model, but your Nephilim is within 4” - suddenly its a choice.

Say an opponent wants to do False Claim, but can’t cheat it without risking Scamper. 

Say an opponent tries Heroic Intervention, but suddenly theres a chance his target will be out of reach. 

Or your opponent tries to Disengage, cheats and manages to get a few inches distance to no avail, because of Scamper.

Scamper is not Butterfly Jump, so rather than discussing it on those terms, try look to what Scamper does - in the end it’ll do you a lot more good, as you won’t get Butterfly Jump back any time soon. 

-

Also look at it from the perspective of the new Strats and Schemes. Could be it’ll prove a lot more useful within that framework. Cheating can suddenly be a choice between a Scamperer making contact with a Strat marker in Corrupted Ley Lines. Malifaux is rarely won by killing, positioning is much more key to scoring points, and Scamper provides a lot more opportunities for movement. 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I'm not using the math to calculate the infinite hands we could have/flip, only the number of different situations that can happen during a single action.

If you're not looking at the likelihood of the outcomes, then you can't say things like it'll happen 50% of the time and expect it to be right.

After all I can flip a red joker or I can not flip a red joker. That doesn't mean I have a 50% chance to flip a red joker even though there are just 2 outcomes. 

If models are focusing rather than taking2 hits then the outcomes are much closer ( until you look at other ways to get focus) because in both cases you get hit once and it doesn't matter if you move or not. 

Don't get me wrong. In the situation you propose scamper is worse than butterfly jump. But the numbers you had don't really tell you how much worse in a usable way. ( I think they over estimated the value of scamper in that situation if I'm honest but the situation is one designed to increase the value of butterfly jump.). 

[Ogid]

43 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

A quick question, rather than continueing making pointless comparison between Scamper and Butterfly Jump, wouldn’t it be more prudent to just accept the fact, and then ponder on how/where/when to make the most of it?

The above discusion was going to happen after the fact (and whining aside, it'll be useful to learn how to use/counter Scamper); but it's true it's time to move forward and see what we can do with what we got. At this point it's clear the differences between both and there is no point in keep beating that horse.

Scamper is an unreliable defensive mechanism, but it does offers extra mobility if the model is in the middle of the action and it doesn't die. So that's probably the answer, stop thinking about IR as a defensive upgrade and start looking at it more like an ofensive/mobility upgrade that eventually could help to defend the model. That upgrade belongs now with already tanky models, or those few models that may hope to reliabily trigger Scamper (a rare mix between to duels, high defensive stats and good Wds for when the upgrade fails).

 

Now that I think about it... there could be a good compromise in a future FAQ between getting something like the old IR back and this absence of defensive tech:

IR was good in most models just for the defense, but it was very good in a few of them that could really make use of both the ofense and defense (being Nekima the prime example). However NVB also has a more or less dead upgrade, Eldritch Magic. EM is only used in conditions based match ups, and a lot of the time a woe or Serena are the ones covering that role instead of a weaker model with EM; leaving IR as it is and changing "The final Veil" in EM for some real defensive tech (Butterfly jump or not, but something reliable) could lead to having defensive tech again in the faction and having also to choose between ofense and defense in the upgrades; without an upgrade making a few models god tier if that was the problem before. And at the same time it'll make EM more useful, because right now paying 2SS to get Dispel Magic isn't that useful and the other parts of the upgrade hardly sweeten the deal.

[Maniacal_cackle]

FWIW, I went and looked at other faction's upgrades and I think it is now safe to say Neverborn have amongst the worst defensive tech via upgrades. So their role as glass cannons has been sealed a bit.

Two of our local Neverborn players swapped to Ressers due to how fragile Neverborn are. So there is some validity to the complaints.

That said, other than Dreamer, Nekima still feels like the scariest Neverborn to face. The best defense is your opponents being too dead to fight back. For ressers, anyway. I can't imagine you pick Nekima against a shooty faction.

[Nagi21]

14 hours ago, Adran said:

If you're not looking at the likelihood of the outcomes, then you can't say things like it'll happen 50% of the time and expect it to be right.

After all I can flip a red joker or I can not flip a red joker. That doesn't mean I have a 50% chance to flip a red joker even though there are just 2 outcomes. 

My post literally said 100% to 50% of situations, not that there was a 50% chance of anything.  You're nitpicking statistics of card draw when that's irrelevant to how many situations can occur during one duel.

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Two of our local Neverborn players swapped to Ressers due to how fragile Neverborn are. So there is some validity to the complaints.

That said, other than Dreamer, Nekima still feels like the scariest Neverborn to face. The best defense is your opponents being too dead to fight back. For ressers, anyway. I can't imagine you pick Nekima against a shooty faction.

That's been a tempting thought... or even over to Outcasts since they have murder without being the squishiest things ever.  Into Rezzers Nekima is fine but I'd be more scared of Pandora since their main shtick is HTW.  As far as a shooty faction... we really don't have much to deal with that anyway.  Dreamer can kind of hold his own vs things like Guild and Thunders, but we just don't have any good anti-range tech other than run through the gunfire and hope we murder what's on the other end... which doesn't work out as well as the designers seem to think.

[Kharnage]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Two of our local Neverborn players swapped to Ressers due to how fragile Neverborn are. So there is some validity to the complaints.

That said, other than Dreamer, Nekima still feels like the scariest Neverborn to face. The best defense is your opponents being too dead to fight back. For ressers, anyway. I can't imagine you pick Nekima against a shooty faction.

Funny you should mention that, even I jumped to Von Schtook since he seems to be above being nerf batted (+1 cost and a no-jokers clause did basically nothing to Valley's strength or pick rate) and between the admittedly fair BFJ-to-Scamper changes in combination with how much Corrupted Leylines spits in Nekima's flight-placing cheerios, I couldn't maintain my loyalty to the Nephilim. She bounces so poorly off of armor and hard to wound, while her own defenses are so easily overwhelmed as a beater master nowadays that it's not worth it. Lady Justice is in a higher class. 
That being said, Fuhatsu aside, shooting crews have never been a problem for Nephilim in my experience. Sonnia, Parker, Basse, Gunsmiths out of MS&U, I've run the gambit of shooters without real problems. It's the more competitive melee beaters that retired Nekima for me. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh dear, if even Kharnage is giving up on Nephilim, then it must really be time for a buff.

Hopefully next GG!

[Nagi21]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

That being said, Fuhatsu aside, shooting crews have never been a problem for Nephilim in my experience. Sonnia, Parker, Basse, Gunsmiths out of MS&U, I've run the gambit of shooters without real problems. It's the more competitive melee beaters that retired Nekima for me. 

I've been banging this drum for so long and nobody's listened.  Nekima is only a slightly better hitter than some 10 point minions and doesn't have enough cannon to compensate for her fragility.  Like... Seamus has a literal cannon that does more damage than her, and even he gets better defenses.

[Ogid]

Well, it's time for this meme:

Jocking aside it's always sad to see players leaving the faction ; but seeying competitive players leaving is worrying.

But we have a bit of context now, the devs thoughts about the IR nerf are in the new podcast (1:23:27). I think Adran was right above when he said they probably overestimated Scamper value. This change doesn't "give the oponent more of the choice", it just remove it as a defensive option.

During all that bit they talked about Butterfly Jump like it were just a repositioning tool for NVB (or if Scamper change were only not being able to disengage as easily instead of models being way more vulnerable now); they did talk a bit early about how butterfly jump is good, but the defensive part of that (or if NVB needed less defense) was never directly adressed.