GG1 FAQ and Errata: NVB changes

[Ogid]

7 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Marcus has his personal upgrade to give butterfly jump so I dont see him too affected by that particular change

Basically before you could put IR plus an offensive upgrade in a model and use it to being obeyed by Marcus having a good defense/ofense beast for only 1 mutation, reserving Wings for others that will go outside of the bubble; now the IR model may also need Wings or other defensive mutation to be safe. And in Marcus case this adds to the charge trigger nerf for a double nerf to a crew that wasn't exactly top notch in NVB. 

That's why the IR change is so odd to me; it hit harder crews that aren't doing that well right now. As Marcus rely on Minions, only IR on them now means a lucky hit from the other player and goodbye minion (and this issue happens to those keywords relying specially in minions like Euripides and Lucius); a Henchman/Master can still try to shrug that hit off with a SS but minions don't have that luxury.

But there is no much we can do right now; just keep playing, test them and do your best in tournaments. If the IR nerf is indeed too much and Purple is the new Red (/s) or only 1 or 2 keywords are competitive now, I guess we will get buffs in a while.

[Ogid]

13 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For Zoraida, the doll timing change is massive. She can't just hit the doll with hex to hand out automatic damage/conditions now.

This one in particular may also be an advantage for her; usually you don't want to hit the doll with Zoraida's AP, but with Wisps. Now she may reposition before summoning the doll, so it's easier to put the upgrade in the target you want (before you have to rely in those models ending within around 12'' of Zoraida). On the other hand, she cannot use threads of fate to get the doll's card back now.

[Angelshard]

@Adran you're right I was reading it wrong. That just made doppel and agent a lot more interesting. 

[Nagi21]

3 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I was thinking about this one, and I'm not sure how it's resolved.

Mainly, because if you fail the Terrifying effect, how do you determine the Accuracy Fate Modifier, as your opponent hasn't flipped a card yet?

Or do you just eat a straight 3/4/5, which even with A+1 still seems a little harsh?

I mean people complained and now they get the old GYL cheatable damage, while we have to deal with Terrifying, and accuracy modifiers, and higher TN's.  Overkilling something that the community complains about is not exactly new here...

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Overkilling something that the community complains about is not exactly new here...

And neither is calling an honestly minor nerf killing something.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean people complained and now they get the old GYL cheatable damage, while we have to deal with Terrifying, and accuracy modifiers, and higher TN's.  Overkilling something that the community complains about is not exactly new here...

Out of curiosity, what matchups have you used stitched/played against stitched?

I was on the "no nerf" train for stitched until I realised I played only against opponents where stitched weren't overpowered.

On average, though, they were wayyyyyy too good against way too many crews (in a keyword that is already top tier and probably still is the best keyword in faction even post nerf).

I just didn't play against those crews so didn't realise it until people spelled it out on here.

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

And neither is calling an honestly minor nerf killing something.

Knocking off a point of Df, and changing a main ability to be weaker for you than it is for your opponent is not a minor nerf.

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Out of curiosity, what matchups have you used stitched/played against stitched?

I was on the "no nerf" train for stitched until I realised I played only against opponents where stitched weren't overpowered.

On average, though, they were wayyyyyy too good against way too many crews (in a keyword that is already top tier and probably still is the best keyword in faction even post nerf).

I just didn't play against those crews so didn't realise it until people spelled it out on here.

Arc, Bayou, Rezzer.  Bayou they were very good but Arc and Rezzer didn't have much issue with them.  My issue isn't that they change GYL, my issue is that they apparently didn't think it through far enough, and now any reason that GYL fails lets the opponent have a 3/4/5 straight, cheatable flip against me... which is what GYL was prior to the nerf.  There's no parity. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

My issue isn't that they change GYL, my issue is that they apparently didn't think it through far enough, and now any reason that GYL fails lets the opponent have a 3/4/5 straight, cheatable flip against me... which is what GYL was prior to the nerf.  There's no parity. 

The parity is that Stitched decide when to use the ability and when to just charge + melee. If there's a decent chance of losing GYL, you're not using it anyway. So losses are going to be incredibly rare (or you intentionally accept the risk).

Therefore the fail SHOULD be painful.

Even pre-nerf, I would often use a melee attack if I only had a 10 or 11 and didn't want to risk the Stitched dying.

EDIT: Note the rules question as to whether the opponent suffers accuracy modifiers is not yet settled in the rules forum.

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Nagi21 said:

Knocking off a point of Df, and changing a main ability to be weaker for you than it is for your opponent is not a minor nerf.

 It is when, A, the model is still above the curse for suitability for 6ss models(especially when it just got a bump in it's survivability thanks to gamble being a wp duel), and B, the sitations where you're going to be failing a gamble action are exactly the same, You flip a black joker, or they flip a red joker. Slight decrease because a BJ now means you're getting damaged, slight increase because a RJ is no longer an auto win for your opponent depending on stats and your flip.

I don't think you've really thought about all the implications of it being an attack action now beyond the point of it can no longer just ignore the vast majority of defensive tech. Having a severe in hand and removed ensures a minimum of 6 damage now(up from 5), as well as there being the impact of your opponent absolutely knowing that you can just cheat in a removed card that they know is going to beat their cheat, so why bother? But, they have to cheat high enough to keep you at a negative on this min 3 6ss model. Now with it being a Wp duel they can both heal themselves, heal other models in the keyword, and pop out summons. Also stat 6 vs Wp means they will on average have a 2 card advantage over their targets, so a 12 can beat a 13 now. And now focus can actually boost their damage, making it more likely to not need to cheat damage for severe.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

And now focus can actually boost their damage, making it more likely to not need to cheat damage for severe.

Yeah, being able to focus it is being massively overlooked here. Very savage. If you combo it with a Black Blood Shaman, it is very conceivable that you'll occasionally have turns where you can set up the double focused attack (possibly with guaranteed 10 damage).

Turn one BBS gives stitched focus, then stitch moves and focuses.

[santaclaws01]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, being able to focus it is being massively overlooked here. Very savage. If you combo it with a Black Blood Shaman, it is very conceivable that you'll occasionally have turns where you can set up the double focused attack (possibly with guaranteed 10 damage).

Turn one BBS gives stitched focus, then stitch moves and focuses.

Also Dreamer potentially giving them focus with Your Nightmare.

[Nagi21]

So the NC meta has ruled that if you fail a GYL attack for any reason, your opponent gets a 3/4/5 cheatable damage flip against you, that they flip.

[katadder]

20 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

So the NC meta has ruled that if you fail a GYL attack for any reason, your opponent gets a 3/4/5 cheatable damage flip against you, that they flip.

I would say as per the FAQ then any accuracy modifiers play either way. so if the stitched loses by 2 then the enemy flips a negative damage flip against the stitched.

[Nagi21]

15 minutes ago, katadder said:

I would say as per the FAQ then any accuracy modifiers play either way. so if the stitched loses by 2 then the enemy flips a negative damage flip against the stitched.

I would agree.  I'm just saying what they've stated they will be doing.

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

I would say as per the FAQ then any accuracy modifiers play either way. so if the stitched loses by 2 then the enemy flips a negative damage flip against the stitched.

But the question is what happens when the Stiched WINS by 2, but fails the TN?

[katadder]

44 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

But the question is what happens when the Stiched WINS by 2, but fails the TN?

That still gives you an accuracy modifier imo, just have to give it to the opponent.

So damage flip with a negative

[Regelridderen]

Just noticed that IR Scamper works even if the action isn’t targeting the model with IR, unlike the old Butterfly Jump. 

[Azkral]

3 hours ago, katadder said:

That still gives you an accuracy modifier imo, just have to give it to the opponent.

So damage flip with a negative

I disagree. The stitched won the duel and nothing happens. 

[Nagi21]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

Just noticed that IR Scamper works even if the action isn’t targeting the model with IR, unlike the old Butterfly Jump. 

That's why the new IR is better vs crews with access to terrifying, like Dora and Dreamer.  Ironically those two are the ones commonly thought to need the least help.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Azkral said:

I disagree. The stitched won the duel and nothing happens. 

It might have won the duel, but the action failed, which is what matters.

The accuracy modifier is defined as the difference between the two totals. 

[katadder]

Exactly, as the ability says, it if fails the enemy gets to do the damage, hence the gamble.

The duel creates the accuracy modifiers

[Regelridderen]

14 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

That's why the new IR is better vs crews with access to terrifying, like Dora and Dreamer.  Ironically those two are the ones commonly thought to need the least help.

What do you mean? You get to move, when they cheat Terrifying - and are then out of reach of the attack?

[Nagi21]

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

What do you mean? You get to move, when they cheat Terrifying - and are then out of reach of the attack?

No but it’s more chances to move when your not being specifically targeted.  Also you cheat during terrifying I move.  You cheat during the duel I move.  4” movement per action is possible with it so terrifying synergizes well.  The problem is crews that don’t have defenses like Euri and Nekima are taking hits to have a chance to get it off.

[Regelridderen]

15 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

No but it’s more chances to move when your not being specifically targeted.  Also you cheat during terrifying I move.  You cheat during the duel I move.  4” movement per action is possible with it so terrifying synergizes well.  The problem is crews that don’t have defenses like Euri and Nekima are taking hits to have a chance to get it off.

Thought as much... But Euri and Nekima were already taking hits, so is this such a big change?

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

Thought as much... But Euri and Nekima were already taking hits, so is this such a big change?

Short answer: Yes, it is.

 

Long answer: Now that upgrade is unreliable as defense, so eventually the model you paid 2 extra SS to have protected will be hit by something you won't be able to stop and your 10-12SS model will die without the upgrade helping at all. That won't happen in every game, but in a 4-5 tournaments games, most likely it'll happen.

Take in count the average beater will have stat 6, our average df is 5. If we wan't to force them to cheat, we need to cheat/flip a card 2 points higher. They flip a 11? I hope you have a 13 to spare (a RJ if the target is a Df4 model). And that without taking in count how bad is wasting resources in defense and that other players will start to use focused or to duel versus IR models; also now a bad hand means you cannot attack, nor defend.

For Nekima or Euripides themselves; it's way worse than before, but they at least have the Health pool and SS to try to survive one of those lucky hits. For Geryons, Rougarous and the like, 1 extra free hit is very bad news for them.

In essence, we cannot trust our defensive upgrade anymore, and making it work make us expend resources defensively (in a faction with bad card draw). I'd call that a big change.