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Paddywhack

Archie Errata

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Ouch. Not sure how I feel about this. Probably for the best, but will have to see. Leap became a lot more difficult. His new bonus is interesting, but I think it might be too expensive. A 7+ to gain a suit or a plus flip is asking a lot. Especially to give up his chance to Leap. 

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I suspect the +flip is key to allow him to ignore manipulative or serene countenance since he can't focus.

Without it, removing ruthless would HURT.

But yeah, he feels sufficiently weaker that I am half inclined to just swap Manos for Archie in many lists (possibly even Forgotten, depends on my crooligan/night terror situation).

You just don't have a 4-9 mask so much of the time, and sometimes not even a 4-13 mask.

That said, early days! He still is a hell of a hitter.

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8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But yeah, he feels sufficiently weaker that I am half inclined to just swap Manos for Archie in many lists (possibly even Forgotten, depends on my crooligan/night terror situation).

Do not forget Manos got hit as well.

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8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just his reliquary, though, right?

Which is big for Yan Lo, but not that relevant to other crews grabbing him OOK.

Well, I'd say for Seamus that's relevant as well. But it's not as big a change as with Archie for sure. Just wanted to mention it, depending on the task one plans for Manos, most of the time it should be fine though.

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Initially it seems they should have lowered Archie's cost by 1. Dropping him down to all stat 4, taking away his suit on the leap, no built in heal on hurl corpse, etc. He seems on par with Manos and Yin in a Seamus crew at least. Seems like he got hit so hard his cost should be reduced to that of Manos and Yin:8.

Where is the Redchapel love? This would have been a perfect time to bring the Belles, Bete, and Sybelle up to snuff!

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15 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I suspect the +flip is key to allow him to ignore manipulative or serene countenance since he can't focus.

Without it, removing ruthless would HURT.

Still HURTS. So you have to waste a 7+ just to even up the Attack duel. Other models, even most big hitters, would just use a Focus and get plus to hit and dmg. Seems like a crap trade to me.  Ruthless would have been better. It's not like getting a suit really makes a big difference. He doesn't have any killer triggers that let him get more attacks, etc. Maybe if it had a TN of 10?

Nice to see Shenlong taken down a peg, but those darn Samurai are untouched....

5 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Probably trying to minimize cards changed.

There is also the possibility they don’t agree anything is wrong with them.

As someone else pointed out I think this errata was mostly trying to power down problem models. Next errata will likely have more boosts to under-performing models. 

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1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

As someone else pointed out I think this errata was mostly trying to power down problem models. Next errata will likely have more boosts to under-performing models. 

It can be hard to actually determine "underperformance". Is a model not being taken because it's crap, or is it not being taken because another model is just better (and may have been nerfed a bit here). I'm sure some people have opinions over what's crap, but that's going to vary a lot more than 

It's easier to look at tournaments and see the 10% of models that appear way too frequently, than it is to see the 30-50% of models that aren't used at all, and figure out why they're not taken.

ie, prior to this Errata, I've seen many more Stitched than I have Insidious Madness, both in crew purchases, and as Summons (despite them using a card that could have summoned an IM). Is an Insidious Madness not a great model for it's cost, or is just overshadowed by something better? With Stitched getting the hammer, there'll be more opportunity to see.

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On 3/5/2020 at 5:11 AM, cchase33 said:

Initially it seems they should have lowered Archie's cost by 1. Dropping him down to all stat 4, taking away his suit on the leap, no built in heal on hurl corpse, etc. He seems on par with Manos and Yin in a Seamus crew at least. Seems like he got hit so hard his cost should be reduced to that of Manos and Yin:8.

Where is the Redchapel love? This would have been a perfect time to bring the Belles, Bete, and Sybelle up to snuff!

He was already under costed. He has 12 wounds, hits for 3/4/6/ with flurry, a heal, rush, leap and only costs nine stones. If anything they should have nerfed him and raised his cost to 10. 

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3 hours ago, Irritated Walrus said:

He was already under costed. He has 12 wounds, hits for 3/4/6/ with flurry, a heal, rush, leap and only costs nine stones. If anything they should have nerfed him and raised his cost to 10. 

I agree he was too good for 9stones but I wouldn't say he should be worth 10stones now. Of course this is all new so we'll need to see how he performs to be sure.

A small side note, he has (and had) 11wounds, not 12.
I'm not saying this to nickpick (your point is that he has a lot of wounds, and it stays valid wether it's 11 or 12), just saying that in case maybe you played games where you counted him as having 12wounds by error.

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Personal opinion, old version would have been fine at 11 stones for Molly, 12 for everyone else.

Or old price remove Leap add Juggernaut.

Have no idea if the new version is worth it in Molly. But losing Ruthless with no ability to Focus makes me pretty much want to leave him in the case. 
 

Archie was absolutely to ubiquitous, but I all this change is going to do, I suspect, is make Manos the ubiquitous model every resser takes.

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31 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Personal opinion, old version would have been fine at 11 stones for Molly, 12 for everyone else.

Or old price remove Leap add Juggernaut.

Have no idea if the new version is worth it in Molly. But losing Ruthless with no ability to Focus makes me pretty much want to leave him in the case. 
 

Archie was absolutely to ubiquitous, but I all this change is going to do, I suspect, is make Manos the ubiquitous model every resser takes.

Agree, there was a problem... But the problem wasn't fixed (just moved to Manos), and now Archie is almost useless potentially.

Though note he can get a positive to deal with manipulative (and now serene countenance) with his bonus.

EDIT: and he should be able to leap over 50% of the time easily.  But leap with a reasonable card to use, not so much.

EDIT2: I also stand by the idea that a reasonable fix would have been to change him to damage track 2/4/6. Since he can't focus, he'd almost always do only 2 damage, but would still have his big payoffs when your opponent ran out of cards. Would have destroyed him for other crews and left him intact for Forgotten.

EDIT3: they nerfed the strongest mobility of almost every faction... So in context of all games slowing down a bit in terms of mobility, maybe this isn't as bad as I'm making out. I'll take a slower Archie if it means a slower Shenlong.

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Archie can Leap on 20% of the time now (11 valid cards, no way to give him the mask). Some comparisons:
Necropunk 61%
Manos 68% (2 ways to get the needed mask)
The First Mate 83% (with stone)
Desper LaRaux 53%
Lady Justice 68% (with stone)
Midnight Stalker 22%
Sabertooth Cerberus 53%
Blessed of December 61%

 

Only being able to leap 1/5 times seems harsh

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8 minutes ago, farmoar said:

Archie can Leap on 20% of the time now (11 valid cards, no way to give him the mask). Some comparisons:
Necropunk 61%
Manos 68% (2 ways to get the needed mask)
The First Mate 83% (with stone)
Desper LaRaux 53%
Lady Justice 68% (with stone)
Midnight Stalker 22%
Sabertooth Cerberus 53%
Blessed of December 61%

 

Only being able to leap 1/5 times seems harsh

Dont forget that Molly can stone for cards, redraw her hand, and remove markers for cards, plus this is a faction with Intuition on an Upgrade.

In a generic crew, Archie will rarely leap, but when played in Keyword I suspect there will be very little change.

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13 minutes ago, farmoar said:

Archie can Leap on 20% of the time now (11 valid cards, no way to give him the mask). Some comparisons:
Necropunk 61%
Manos 68% (2 ways to get the needed mask)
The First Mate 83% (with stone)
Desper LaRaux 53%
Lady Justice 68% (with stone)
Midnight Stalker 22%
Sabertooth Cerberus 53%
Blessed of December 61%

Only being able to leap 1/5 times seems harsh

In crew though, it's a Master that's got significant card draw.

Yes, the Keyword needs that card draw for it's constant discard effects, but most discards don't care what it is, so it does permit cycling the non-Masks for that. So now, instead of keeping any 5+ for Archie's Leap, you need to keep a 5+ of Masks. A downshift, but not one that's overly ridiculous.

Not saying that the nerf wasn't excessive (I'll wait to see if he's still considered useful instead of compulsory), but there's additional context for the Forgotten keyword beyond just the raw cards available. Some of those others (Chimera, Transmortis) have a similar non-straight percentage too.

EDIT: Dang it, @Mycellanious !

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Having played it, you definitely feel the gap in leap. 4-9 masks are really what you want to be using for the leap. Any higher, and that is a serious cost (taking one of your few high cards for the round).

True, most of the time if you're seeing 12 cards you will see something you can use, but ~20% of the time you're not going to have 4-9 of masks (when seeing 12 cards, which is a LOT).

There is also the issue that Molly hates saving cards, particularly low cards. She wants to be cycling as many cards as possible to get more draw off the Gorgon. So leaving a low mask sitting in your hand feels super clunky.

Which again is possibly fine (Molly certainly feels OP in my local scene and the nerf is probably a good thing locally). But when I go to tournaments, I'll certainly consider just swapping crews if it is as weak as I think it is.

I'll be taking Archie every round of a tournament tomorrow to test it out.

EDIT: on a personal note, I was actually planning on maining Reva for a few months... And now she feels very, very strong on paper. Looking forward to testing her when my models arrive!

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I think what gets me is that there are only 11 cards that let him leap, which includes the Red Joker. I feel like they could have done something else to bring him down. As it stands, he loses a major part of why you bring him in Forgotten; a By Your Side target. Now I think that slot goes to Rogue Necromancy more often.

Part of why I am sad is that I really like my Arrrchie proxy, and now he will see less table time.

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2 minutes ago, farmoar said:

I think what gets me is that there are only 11 cards that let him leap, which includes the Red Joker. I feel like they could have done something else to bring him down. As it stands, he loses a major part of why you bring him in Forgotten; a By Your Side target. Now I think that slot goes to Rogue Necromancy more often.

Part of why I am sad is that I really like my Arrrchie proxy, and now he will see less table time.

Yeah, really wish they had hit damage (the reason every other crew takes him) and left his mobility (the reason Forgotten takes him).

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6 hours ago, farmoar said:

Archie can Leap on 20% of the time now (11 valid cards, no way to give him the mask). 

Only being able to leap 1/5 times seems harsh

As someone who used leap a lot last edition, I would point out that whilst you might know you can't leap with your hand, your opponent doesn't know that, and will still have to plan for you being able to leap. 

( I also think your maths misses cheating so you are probably able to leap much more than 1 turn each game ).

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Counting Red Joker and assuming you attempt the leap with drawing no cards and no other priorities (aka, you use the joker to leap), you succeed at it 76% of the time.

I assume the 20% is off the top/without assistance.  Archie will need to cheat a card 80% of the time to leap now, which is significantly worse than his peers.

So for an expected full power turn for him, you need two cards at least now, often taking 4-5 cards in a single turn.

Pre nerf, I'd spend about 2-4 cards a turn on him.

Just some numbers info, don't think any of this tells the story itself.

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10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, really wish they had hit damage (the reason every other crew takes him) and left his mobility (the reason Forgotten takes him).

Except that would have been a gigantic thematic failure. Archie is supposed to be a beater. Every single story appearance he has ever showed up in portrays him as a massive bruiser. So I personally am not fussed they hit leap because it was so out of character for him. I just hate they removed ruthless on a model that can’t focus.

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Archie was definitely a powerhouse that needed to be adjusted in some manner. Although I think Wyrd did a great job overall with the errata, I'm not sure I like what they've done with Archie since I think it changes the role he plays in a Molly (or any resser) crew. Previously, for me at least, Archie might have looked like a hammer but he was more of a scalpel. He was there to punish models who left themselves  exposed and that Archie could generally take down in a single activation, but the key to that was his mobility. He would usually leap, move/leap, or leap move into a position to charge and flurry for 2-3 attacks on a mid-level model or schemer. I could get him where he needed to be because of the built-in leap suit and normal movement. 

The part about the nerf I don't like is that Archie's ability to get where he needs to be is dramatically reduced. The rush helps a bit, but you've got to have the cards to make the leap happen. With that in mind you can't really add him to the crew and expect him to play the same role for you. He can pull it off, but you're probably going to be hiring him more for a straightforward beater role and using his new immediate action rather than his leap. He's just a different kind of model than he was before. He probably won't be bad for 9, but he'll function a bit differently.  

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