Fetid Strumpet Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 You’re missing the point. The point is that high variance models are not used competitively, period. Let’s not forget in 1e there was only one player who ever got Marcus working in a competitive environment, and that it was partly because of Marcus and the difficulties of playing him that we moved to a lower variance environment. Models do not exist in a vaccuum. The fact that there exist models that do Archie’s role better than Archie means Archie isn’t that good any longer. That’s just a fact. He absolutely needed to be hit, and I was one of the most vocal calling for a nerf, and I believe calling for the most since most people thought he needed a 1 as cost increase and I said 2. But the way they did it makes no sense. They changed him more than any other model, and they really didn’t need to. They could have cut Flurry and he’d have been fine. They could have cut leap and added some form of healing and he’d be fine. They could have increased cost and he’d have been fine. Instead they changed the movement, removed Ruthless, added rush, changed the stat number and removed mask from leap, and added another ability to try and slightly mitigate the removal of ruthless. That is a giant mish mash of unnecessary changes. He was absolutely too good, way over the line, totally agree he should have been hit, but I don’t agree with how they did it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 13 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said: You’re missing the point. The point is that high variance models are not used competitively, period. Let’s not forget in 1e there was only one player who ever got Marcus working in a competitive environment, and that it was partly because of Marcus and the difficulties of playing him that we moved to a lower variance environment. Models do not exist in a vaccuum. The fact that there exist models that do Archie’s role better than Archie means Archie isn’t that good any longer. That’s just a fact. He absolutely needed to be hit, and I was one of the most vocal calling for a nerf, and I believe calling for the most since most people thought he needed a 1 as cost increase and I said 2. But the way they did it makes no sense. They changed him more than any other model, and they really didn’t need to. They could have cut Flurry and he’d have been fine. They could have cut leap and added some form of healing and he’d be fine. They could have increased cost and he’d have been fine. Instead they changed the movement, removed Ruthless, added rush, changed the stat number and removed mask from leap, and added another ability to try and slightly mitigate the removal of ruthless. That is a giant mish mash of unnecessary changes. He was absolutely too good, way over the line, totally agree he should have been hit, but I don’t agree with how they did it. I'm not UK Rocky, but I managed to get podiums with first edition Marcus (At least once, as lone master, and often when he was one of my played masters at the event) . I certainly managed top arcanist in one of the UKGTs. I also got podiums with heavy use on a model with a leap that needed a (sabretooth Cerberus) in M2e, who was used in a lot of arcanist lists as a heavy hitter, partially because of the leap.(Certainly by me. The three heads and the Maul helped quite a bit, but with out leap he would have dropped in use by me quite a lot). It was also a glass cannon that could be killed in 1 activation if left exposed. I honestly don't know if the changes made to Archie are too much or not, or if he is the best for his job, or far worst than several other models. I do know that having an unsuited leap does not in itself make a model poor. (Having a suited leap is amazingly strong, and is very rarely seen on anything that is good at hitting because it is so strong). (That said maybe I use to many High variance models and that's why I get inconsistent results. Its certainly not something I would rule out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 It isn’t the unsuited leap that makes him poor. As said one of my preferred solutions would have been to just remove it. The problem is he is just inconsistent all around, and there exist models that can do his job that are not inconsistent. If you need a dmg dealing leaper Manos exists. If you need dedicated beater, The Dead Rider and Rogue Necromancy exist. Also if you aren’t playing in a dedicated singles environment, Seamus and McMorning exist. You can’t rely on him to do your hitting because he can’t focus and there are so many often taken models in the game that have Serene Countenance, Manipulative, or high Terror Scores, all of which the general play around it to take less attacks but more meaningful ones, and Archie doesn’t have that option. You can’t rely on him to provide disruption because he doesn’t have the defensive tech to actually go toe to toe with the majority of other taken beater models in the game. You can’t rely on him to do your Scheme running because you can’t rely on having the leap when you absolutely need it. Im not saying Archie is bad because he lost his reliable leap, again I personally thought he should have as I don’t think any model should have had leap and flurry. I’m saying he isn’t competitive because losing the reliable leap AND ruthless WHILE also keeping numbskull makes every job he would be hired to do inconsistent and high variance, and competitive models are not high variance models. 1 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexLock Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said: It isn’t the unsuited leap that makes him poor. As said one of my preferred solutions would have been to just remove it. The problem is he is just inconsistent all around, and there exist models that can do his job that are not inconsistent. If you need a dmg dealing leaper Manos exists. If you need dedicated beater, The Dead Rider and Rogue Necromancy exist. Also if you aren’t playing in a dedicated singles environment, Seamus and McMorning exist. You can’t rely on him to do your hitting because he can’t focus and there are so many often taken models in the game that have Serene Countenance, Manipulative, or high Terror Scores, all of which the general play around it to take less attacks but more meaningful ones, and Archie doesn’t have that option. You can’t rely on him to provide disruption because he doesn’t have the defensive tech to actually go toe to toe with the majority of other taken beater models in the game. You can’t rely on him to do your Scheme running because you can’t rely on having the leap when you absolutely need it. Im not saying Archie is bad because he lost his reliable leap, again I personally thought he should have as I don’t think any model should have had leap and flurry. I’m saying he isn’t competitive because losing the reliable leap AND ruthless WHILE also keeping numbskull makes every job he would be hired to do inconsistent and high variance, and competitive models are not high variance models. Easy fix, remove the leap and numbskull, he can focus then and he's still super tanky for his cost. Most big beaters are less tanky than Archie, not more and it's ridiculous that people keep trying to imply his defenses are anything other than great. 11 wounds, HtW, Terrifying 12 and healing is great and Numbskull is a great defense too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeperColony Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 Or you could improve his other bonus action to essentially copy focus and lower the TN so it's easier to pull off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Vening Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 I'm not versed enough to comment on the mechanics/balance at play here. Though it is interesting seeing differing opinions on the subject. I just wanted to request a thread title change. "Archieratta" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irritated Walrus Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 On 3/8/2020 at 6:00 PM, Fetid Strumpet said: Agree. I find high variance models annoying to play. Still would have preferred just removing leap and adding some form of healing ability. He has a healing ability on the front of his card. If you flurry, you heal every turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 I’m aware. It isn’t enough to go toe to toe. If he isn’t one rounded he 100% dies the next round even with the healing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irritated Walrus Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said: I’m aware. It isn’t enough to go toe to toe. If he isn’t one rounded he 100% dies the next round even with the healing. I'm not seeing the problem with the nerf. You also have access to the Rogue Necromancy in a Forgotten crew. For nine stones Archie does more than enough. He can heal, has flurry, hard to wound, can't gain conditions, terrifying 12, and rush, which are all passive abilities that don't cost AP. He's a stat 6 with three different triggers for 3/4/6, can leap, can throw corpse markers for 2/3/4 that can also heal him, and can build in + flips. Not to mention he has 11 health and access to upgrade for 2 stones that gives him regen +2. There are plenty of other nine stone models in this game that aren't nearly that great. I think his cost should have also been increased by a stone. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 Wow, Archie got a lot of changes: Mv 5 vs Mv4 and Rush is kind of equivalent: Same movement (but a bit less maneuverability), better for charges, worse versus Mv attacks. The throw corpse suit one... for 9SS he is still tanky, has healing and this trigger healing was situational; this nerf wasn't 100% necessary but I can see the reasoning behind it. Ruthless for the new is harsh but fair; he was too good versus too many squishy models relying in Manipulative/Terrifying. Now he needs good timing/cheat/give up leap to smash these but he can still do it (and he can now at least swing once to models he cannot touch before like Serene countenance ones). The leap one is the worse by far. Not getting the mask or getting a very high mask now punish the player. The leap change looks like a nerf to both Molly and Archie at the same time, but it also increase the synergy with his keyword (Molly has nearly 2 hands, so much more chances to get a lowish mask)... It's harsh and it realy hurts him OOK, not sure if it'll be too much or not. It needs a few games to see how it works in keyword/OOK now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmoar Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 I am going to run him this weekend in a tournament, both with Molly, and as part of my Terror list. I feel like the lack of any sort of consistency will relegate him to the sidelines afterwards though. Rogue Necromancy appears to be the better Crooligan Delivery System now, and not losing Ruthless will make his Flurry less enticing. If they wanted him to be taken less OOK, I think they missed the mark. I think he will be taken less all-around now. *Tinfoil hat time* maybe Wyrd lost all of the Archie sprues, and so they nerfed him into the ground so no one would want to buy him. Samesies with Yasunori lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, farmoar said: Rogue Necromancy appears to be the better Crooligan Delivery System now I think Philip and the Nanny is probably the crooligan delivery system of choice. But I have always rated P&N much higher than other people have. And to be fair, thematically it should be the Nanny that carts around the children... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmoar Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 58 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: I think Philip and the Nanny is probably the crooligan delivery system of choice. But I have always rated P&N much higher than other people have. And to be fair, thematically it should be the Nanny that carts around the children... Sure, except that Nani and the Voice only gets 10" turn 1. Salty Seadevil is 13" (with flight), and Arrrchie was 16" (plus base width). Plus, moving the Manipulative model early in the turn doesn't seem great for their survivability. (all of that is based on not fielding a Night Terror) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, farmoar said: Sure, except that Nani and the Voice only gets 10" turn 1. Salty Seadevil is 13" (with flight), and Arrrchie was 16" (plus base width). Plus, moving the Manipulative model early in the turn doesn't seem great for their survivability. (all of that is based on not fielding a Night Terror) P&N is 14" by the end of turn one, and due to activation control via minion reactivation and willingness to cheat initiative, you can usually get P&N up near the end of turn one. So for precisely turn one, rogue necro is probably slightly better. For the rest of the game, P&N really shines (especially with the anti-interact aura). That said, I found P&N particularly powerful on plant explosives. Not sure there is a strategy that fits them anymore. They're still very good at claim jump and some schemes though! Also hard to say as I'm used to leaning on Archie turn one so P&N didn't matter as much for turn 1. Will have to test it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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