Reaction Thread: GG1 - Guild

[theamazingmrg]

1 minute ago, Maladroit said:

Queeg can also use his bonus action on the dispsatcher to drop a friendly scheme marker and get a card as a bonus

Very true.  One of the (many!) reasons I think we'll be seeing a lot more of Guard crews!

[Maladroit]

56 minutes ago, trikk said:

 

He should probably get a Df6 for having to choose between Mimic and Inhuman Physiology. The offensive nerf is justifiable

There is now space on the front of his card. Would combat finesse be too much?

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, Maladroit said:

There is now space on the front of his card. Would combat finesse be too much?

I dunno, but he`s really squishy with a hampered offensive potential.

[le_wahou]

12 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

Draw Out Secrets - yes, this is great. and there's no denying Lucius and Nellie are great for Scheme-heavy pools, but on Jury its on a 1" melee action that causes no damage (although Slow is nice) so puts the Jury in a vulnerable position to be able to use it.

False Claim is really good, but again is mostly a Lucius/Nellie thing.  You can take models out of Keyword, obviously, but then you run the risk of diluting synergies you need so isn't always the best choice.

Secrets Exposed isn't really Scheme Marker dropping.  The FAQ makes it clear that an opponent can choose to remove Scheme markers even if there aren't any, so more often than not its going to result in Scheme marker removal, not placement, if anything.

The Sergeants Scheme Marker movement doesn't count either.  You still need the Interact Action to place the Marker in the first place (most of the time).  It helps with positioning, but not with the efficiency (in fact its less efficient, as its one Action to place the Marker, and then another one to move it).

Queeg also takes two Actions in order to get the enemy to drop a Scheme Marker and then turn it to a friendly one.  Helpful, yes, but efficient, not so much.

Queller's Scheme Marker dropping is also contingent on another Action first (whether its own Arcane Staff, or some other source of Burning) so is inefficient.  It's also the Queller, which isn't the best model even in ideal circumstances.

Augmented have zero Scheme Marker dropping in Guild.  They do have access to the Arcanist Union Steamfitter, who can discard a card or a Scrap Marker to drop a Scheme (or Scrap) Marker as a bonus action, but I'm a) talking about Guild, and b) Guild Augmented have a distinct lack of intentional Scrap Marker dropping to fuel that (the two Hoffmans have Creative Salvage, so need to kill something, and the Mechanical Attendant can do it as a Trigger on his bonus).  Joss also has Creative Salvage, but again, we're then into looking at Arcanist models.

And Frontier has no way of dropping them outside of Interacts.

So yes, Guild have options, but outside of Elite and Journalist, they generally require a minimum of two Actions to drop.  That just makes them less efficient than other factions, which coupled with their simplistic movement makes trying to score Marker-heavy Schemes incredibly Action-intensive.  Especially things like Runic Binding which require you to not only have the Markers in the right place, but engineer the enemy models to be in the right place too.

 

Thank the Governor for Lucius, that's all I can say!  I imagine we'll be seeing a lot of him and Dashel in the next year.

 

Secret exposed in the 2" aura of a reporter means that you will usually get : slow; 1/3/4; drop a scheme; focus on 1-2 models; probably a draw. You talk about action efficiency later in your post, I do see anything more efficient in other factions.
Sergeant allows you to prepare the scoring. You still need to scheme before, I agree. But you can scheme in a safe position with low cost model, and have sergeant position the schemes. Queeg can also do this on the totem, as pointed by Maladroit.
The Jury is on 1" melee, at 6 against WP. I do not see the henchmen as vulnerable, especially as he tends to have extremely heavy beaters around him. Still, this is not a ranged scheme dropping. It is efficient on AP cost and allwos you to drop chemes when engaged, but this is not a the most efficient here.
I do not believe that getting some burning with Sonnia's team is a problem. It is the side effect of most of the attack actions of the team. You call it inefficient, I call it synergy.
Augmented gets this from arcanist models. That's not a problem, it means that the keyword has access to these actions.

I agree that some of our keywords are less efficient than others on these schemes. We have 1 keyword that will never choose them without using tax models. The others can at least threaten to do them. We have 3 keywords (Reporter, Elite, witch hunters) able to do them consistently. You can not compare the average of our keywords with the best models of other factions and get the conclusion that we are weaker.

[theamazingmrg]

6 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

Secret exposed in the 2" aura of a reporter means that you will usually get : slow; 1/3/4; drop a scheme; focus on 1-2 models; probably a draw. You talk about action efficiency later in your post, I do see anything more efficient in other factions.
Sergeant allows you to prepare the scoring. You still need to scheme before, I agree. But you can scheme in a safe position with low cost model, and have sergeant position the schemes. Queeg can also do this on the totem, as pointed by Maladroit.
The Jury is on 1" melee, at 6 against WP. I do not see the henchmen as vulnerable, especially as he tends to have extremely heavy beaters around him. Still, this is not a ranged scheme dropping. It is efficient on AP cost and allwos you to drop chemes when engaged, but this is not a the most efficient here.
I do not believe that getting some burning with Sonnia's team is a problem. It is the side effect of most of the attack actions of the team. You call it inefficient, I call it synergy.
Augmented gets this from arcanist models. That's not a problem, it means that the keyword has access to these actions.

I agree that some of our keywords are less efficient than others on these schemes. We have 1 keyword that will never choose them without using tax models. The others can at least threaten to do them. We have 3 keywords (Reporter, Elite, witch hunters) able to do them consistently. You can not compare the average of our keywords with the best models of other factions and get the conclusion that we are weaker.

I'm the first person to say that Elite and Journalist crews are very good at Scheme-heavy pools.  It's the rest of the faction that I have issues with.  And its not just the ability to drop Scheme Markers (althoguh that is obviously the major factor).  And I never said getting Burning on models was a problem with Sonnia's crew.  I said that being able to use the Queller's ability requires that other Action first, and otherwise the Queller is a pretty poor model.

 

I'll happily be proved wrong once good players are winning tournaments with Guild all over the place.  I'm not going to hold my breath for that though.

[trikk]

2 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

I'm the first person to say that Elite and Journalist crews are very good at Scheme-heavy pools.  It's the rest of the faction that I have issues with.  And its not just the ability to drop Scheme Markers (althoguh that is obviously the major factor).  And I never said getting Burning on models was a problem with Sonnia's crew.  I said that being able to use the Queller's ability requires that other Action first, and otherwise the Queller is a pretty poor model.

 

I'll happily be proved wrong once good players are winning tournaments with Guild all over the place.  I'm not going to hold my breath for that though.

There's an old Guild saying: They can't outscheme you if they're dead  

 

I think the biggest issue Guild has is: lack of leaps/flying/incorporeal in most keywords. Watchers are ok but they lack versatile (which would fix a lot of issues IMHO)

[4thstringer]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

There's an old Guild saying: They can't outscheme you if they're dead  

 

I think the biggest issue Guild has is: lack of leaps/flying/incorporeal in most keywords. Watchers are ok but they lack versatile (which would fix a lot of issues IMHO)

I don't think wyrd was aiming at systemic problems, of which guild has a few.   The buffs to Daschel and perdita are both not minor though, and recently a couple people have won events with guild in NC and Mass.(this one with solo Daschel no less).   I'm not saying it's looking good, but there is reason for hope.

The fact is, the new schemes and strats will definitely be the big change (positive or negative remains to be seen), and  just getting more of us out there at events would make a bigger difference than a buff would.

[theamazingmrg]

29 minutes ago, trikk said:

There's an old Guild saying: They can't outscheme you if they're dead  

 

I think the biggest issue Guild has is: lack of leaps/flying/incorporeal in most keywords. Watchers are ok but they lack versatile (which would fix a lot of issues IMHO)

I think the biggest problem with Watchers is they are so fragile, tbh.  For something like Breakthrough they're fast enough to succeed at it but they'll still die to a stiff wind if looked at the wrong way, even with Armor +1.  Hoffman's Power Tokens offset that a little bit, but they won't have those if they're in other crews.

 

And unfortunately my terrible flips tend to mean nothing dies when its supposed to, which really doesn't help!

[trikk]

13 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

I think the biggest problem with Watchers is they are so fragile, tbh.  For something like Breakthrough they're fast enough to succeed at it but they'll still die to a stiff wind if looked at the wrong way, even with Armor +1.  Hoffman's Power Tokens offset that a little bit, but they won't have those if they're in other crews.

 

And unfortunately my terrible flips tend to mean nothing dies when its supposed to, which really doesn't help!

If they cost 4SS you could bring 3 and at least 1 of them could get there. For 5SS they are too fragile

[Mycellanious]

5 hours ago, trikk said:

They still look pretty underwhelming. Same as Greed.

Agreed

He should probably get a Df6 for having to choose between Mimic and Inhuman Physiology. The offensive nerf is justifiable

 

The bonus action changes are ok but he has the worst base attack of all the riders IMHO. If he ignored concealment/cover/had ahe'd be OK IMHO

He has the same Stat and damage track as the Mech Rider with 4 more inches of range lo.

[Bort]

37 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

I think the biggest problem with Watchers is they are so fragile, tbh.  For something like Breakthrough they're fast enough to succeed at it but they'll still die to a stiff wind if looked at the wrong way, even with Armor +1.  Hoffman's Power Tokens offset that a little bit, but they won't have those if they're in other crews.

Even in Hoff crew they really only get 1 token, and that is if they setup in the 6" bubble.  After that they are usually out of range to get more. They are real fast, but like you say, quite squishy.

Compare with Necropunk (as an example) they are bad scheme runners.  (Ok, figure this is a really unfair comparison as I only took one example at semi-random)

Necro is 5 points, Df4, 5" mv.  But with the same 1+ Armor, Hard to Wound, 6 wounds and Leap.    So leap + mv + interact gives it an effective 11" range to interact.  

Watcher is only 4 points (so 5 with tax for all but hoffman).  Better Df at 5.   But then only 4 wounds and armor 1 and no other defense tech. So it's going to die. And the 7" looks better on the card, and we can do the self transfer power trick for another 2".  So only 9" effective interact range.

[trikk]

14 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

He has the same Stat and damage track as the Mech Rider with 4 more inches of range lo.

Card draw > Staggered and Injured

[Mycellanious]

12 minutes ago, trikk said:

Card draw > Staggered and Injured

Firstly, thats situational. Second, both of those are Triggers. Neither is built in, and I doubt people are chucking Fate Tokens to make them go off very often.

[le_wahou]

8 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Firstly, thats situational. Second, both of those are Triggers. Neither is built in, and I doubt people are chucking Fate Tokens to make them go off very often.

Getting a staggered at high range can be game changing. A high cost model that can not be pushed by allies and has his movement reduced by 40% does not present the same threat. I have already used tokens on pale rider 1st or 2nd turn for this. As the best trigger is now 4 ram, it may change : you do not have spare destiny. If you use 1, you delay devastation by 1 turn.

[ShinChan]

35 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

Getting a staggered at high range can be game changing. A high cost model that can not be pushed by allies and has his movement reduced by 40% does not present the same threat. I have already used tokens on pale rider 1st or 2nd turn for this. As the best trigger is now 4 ram, it may change : you do not have spare destiny. If you use 1, you delay devastation by 1 turn.

Totally agree, getting a beater with Stagered and Injured +2 from 12" (if I know I have the high card to hit that, I'll use 1 fate for the Injured -2) that can be a game changer. Also is the rider that can stay from the safety of 12" while putting damage. Hooded and Dead hit harder, yes, but they need to be exposed.

[Banjulhu]

I'm agree with the reasoning behind the nerf to the Devastation trigger but what it has been reduced to seems like it will never really be something you would want to spend the tokens on triggering.

[le_wahou]

10 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

I'm agree with the reasoning behind the nerf to the Devastation trigger but what it has been reduced to seems like it will never really be something you would want to spend the tokens on triggering.

I do not have the same conclusion. On end of turn 2 two movements and devastation. On first action turn 3 devastation 1 movement to retrreat and one shot on a close model, that's 4 irreducible, 1 burning damage and burning 2 on a 14" diameter without putting your rider in danger. That's still a big deal to me

[Irritated Walrus]

I just printed cards and at this The Pale Rider's new card isn't even on the page with all the other updated cards. 

[Morgan Vening]

1 minute ago, Irritated Walrus said:

I just printed cards and at this The Pale Rider's new card isn't even on the page with all the other updated cards. 

Dunno why. I see him there.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wicc6rs8kg46bt7/AAA9IhmAYs8DmI5KUlh5XYbPa/Malifaux Third Edition/zErrata - March 2020/Guild?dl=0&preview=M3E_Gld_Horseman_Versatile_PaleRider_Errata0320.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

[Irritated Walrus]

1 minute ago, Morgan Vening said:

Dunno why. I see him there.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wicc6rs8kg46bt7/AAA9IhmAYs8DmI5KUlh5XYbPa/Malifaux Third Edition/zErrata - March 2020/Guild?dl=0&preview=M3E_Gld_Horseman_Versatile_PaleRider_Errata0320.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

Thanks. I was looking in the wrong spot. 

[Irritated Walrus]

4 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I don't think wyrd was aiming at systemic problems, of which guild has a few.   The buffs to Daschel and perdita are both not minor though, and recently a couple people have won events with guild in NC and Mass.(this one with solo Daschel no less).   I'm not saying it's looking good, but there is reason for hope.

The fact is, the new schemes and strats will definitely be the big change (positive or negative remains to be seen), and  just getting more of us out there at events would make a bigger difference than a buff would.

The buff to Daschel is major. He needs to have a two point rise in health though. There are non masters with more health. 

I'm not sure that the Enslaved Nephilim gaining access to a card is that great. It helps, but its not something that helps a card intensive crew all that much. The change in No Prisoners still doesn't help much for 2 stones. It should be 1. 

[Yore Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, Irritated Walrus said:

The buff to Daschel is major. He needs to have a two point rise in health though. There are non masters with more health. 

I'm not sure that the Enslaved Nephilim gaining access to a card is that great. It helps, but its not something that helps a card intensive crew all that much. The change in No Prisoners still doesn't help much for 2 stones. It should be 1. 

Another boost to Dashel will be the Corrupted Ley Lines strat: Executioners are hard goalies for later points -- they have a threatening attack, can eat an enemy scheme marker with trail of gore, and can Scatter people away from the base contact they need at end of round. On top of that, Lead Lined Coat (or Dashel's own Laugh Off) allows your own models to stay in base contact against such effects.

That makes TWO meaningful upgrades for Guild, now.

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Firstly, thats situational. Second, both of those are Triggers. Neither is built in, and I doubt people are chucking Fate Tokens to make them go off very often.

I toss tokens fairly regularly, and I expect to do so more now that the rapid action got nerfed.  I do rarely find it's worthwhile to spend more than one.

[Regelridderen]

19 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

New No Prisoners is interesting.  @Gnomezilla mentioned combining it with toss, which is very interesting.

Horrible! Pure horror I tell you.

Here I was looking to make an Investigator/Mimic list with Papa Loco and tossing Shockwaves all over the board. It would have been a gimmick, but it would have been my gimmick.

[Bort]

20 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

New No Prisoners is interesting.  @Gnomezilla mentioned combining it with toss, which is very interesting.

First thing I did was to look through the minions to see where I can use it to greatest effect.  Only have/play Hoffman, so anything to help the slow bots along is useful.  I came to the conclusion that Riotbreaker's guns line up perfectly having an 8" range.  The question then became, is a Riotbreaker + Upgrade at 9 points really worth it to "teleport" shoot my models forward?  Especially since I can basically do the same thing, but easier using a 9 point Guardian with Toss instead.

Other option I considered was with Riflemen, but same issue. At 9 points  (6 + tax + upgrade) is it really worth it at all?

Then I noticed Warden restraint claw is also 8".  So that also works.  Makes the target slow and then throw him with a beater.  Might just work.