Butterfly jump with flight

[out4egos]

When I play in a tournament I have to declare faction I got Marcus nekama euripides now there's no reason to play Marcus in never born not a strong reason to and I mean this literally affects two of my three crews that I play in tournaments so for me personally it's a big hit to one of my main strategies

[Adran]

50 minutes ago, out4egos said:

When I play in a tournament I have to declare faction I got Marcus nekama euripides now there's no reason to play Marcus in never born not a strong reason to and I mean this literally affects two of my three crews that I play in tournaments so for me personally it's a big hit to one of my main strategies

From the sounds of it you were playing it wrongly anyway. So it might not be as big a hit as you thought. 

Or rather you were going to have to change anyway . 

Edit - just to add whilst I don't know why Wyrd chose to change it, butterfly jump was complained about in the public beta as being to strong so it's not just a recent complaint. 

And LVO doesn't seem like that big an event, it was only 17 players. It would really surprised me if that was anything more than the final straw. And probably not even that. 

[Ogid]

4 minutes ago, out4egos said:

I think people are entitled to be disappointed a lot of us have a lot of time and money invested in this game and when a change like this happens and its on several different forums the comments of stop complaining and just deal with it those are pretty frustrating because if we don't complain they won't change it back and I personally do think this is because of Vegas

It's understandable... but try to not get jebaited into that; give your reasons and let it be. 

The timing could suggest it, but I don't think the LVO is the reason; they would had targeted Nekima/Matures with nerfs for the LVO.

1 minute ago, out4egos said:

When I play in a tournament I have to declare faction I got Marcus nekama euripides now there's no reason to play Marcus in never born not a strong reason to and I mean this literally affects two of my three crews that I play in tournaments so for me personally it's a big hit to one of my main strategies

Wow, you really got the short stick in this errata. I'd say just keep playing to see the changes in action and give honest feedback.

Also think tournaments results are taken in consideration to see the balance. If this is indeed too harsh and suddenly NVB dissapears from the first positions of tournaments or only Dreamer/Pandora are able to get there, that'll be much more persuasive that anything anyone can write in a forum and this change will be reverted or other buffs will happen to those crews.

TLDR: Don't worry, test it and give it time

[Maniacal_cackle]

39 minutes ago, out4egos said:

When I play in a tournament I have to declare faction I got Marcus nekama euripides now there's no reason to play Marcus in never born not a strong reason to and I mean this literally affects two of my three crews that I play in tournaments so for me personally it's a big hit to one of my main strategies

That legit sucks. It is one of the reasons I'm extremely conservative with power level errata (I was even against the Archie errata when people floated dropping his suit on these forums, and they went way further).

It stinks that you might invest in a crew on the basis of the game working one way, and then it gets ruled/errata-ed to be different.

Hopefully the changes still result in fun play for you. Keep in mind that while hypermobility for Neverborn was hit, it was also hit for the worst offenders in other factions (Archie, Shenlong, etc). So enemies will be less able to keep up with you as well.

[out4egos]

55 minutes ago, Adran said:

From the sounds of it you were playing it wrongly anyway. So it might not be as big a hit as you thought. 

Or rather you were going to have to change anyway . 

Edit - just to add whilst I don't know why Wyrd chose to change it, butterfly jump was complained about in the public beta as being to strong so it's not just a recent complaint. 

And LVO doesn't seem like that big an event, it was only 17 players. It would really surprised me if that was anything more than the final straw. And probably not even that. 

 The butterfly jump with flight question  was from me and a buddy was playing a game and I was just trying to make him mad on purpose LOL and I had to post a question on the forum as per our bet i guess you could call it

[out4egos]

And Vegas wasn't a big event agreed but it did get a lot of attention which as you said with the timing is just one heck of a coincidence I guess

[out4egos]

I should have got away from Marcus a long time ago but he was given to me to get me into the game and I've never been able to part with him and I cannot honestly think of a game I've played in the last year that I didn't take in human reflexes in any crew that I played and never born. Ogid can I still take Miranda and change her to say Jackalope like we were talking about to prevent scoring or has the new replace rules changed that?

[Nagi21]

17 hours ago, out4egos said:

And Vegas wasn't a big event agreed but it did get a lot of attention which as you said with the timing is just one heck of a coincidence I guess

Not sure on what planet 17 players is not a big event.  Most metas don't even have half that many players.

 

17 hours ago, out4egos said:

I should have got away from Marcus a long time ago but he was given to me to get me into the game and I've never been able to part with him and I cannot honestly think of a game I've played in the last year that I didn't take in human reflexes in any crew that I played and never born. Ogid can I still take Miranda and change her to say Jackalope like we were talking about to prevent scoring or has the new replace rules changed that?

Nope new rules changed that as well.  Marcus got shaaaanked this go around... aside from his initates.

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Not sure on what planet 17 players is not a big event.  Most metas don't even have half that many players.

 

Nope new rules changed that as well.  Marcus got shaaaanked this go around... aside from his initates.

When I get to events (not that often) I'm used to 20+ as the norm.. It may be because of the events I'm able to get to co-incide with the larger events in the uk. but looking at the ranked events between July and January in the uk there were 19 events, of which 12 were over 17 players.

So I don't view a 17 player event as a large event, but I'm prepared to admit that's because I'm used to the UK where a lot of events bring a lot of the metas together.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

Nope new rules changed that as well.

That part of the replace rules is exactly the same. Changing into a jackalope will deny Runic Binding, it won't deny Take Prisoner or Vendetta.

Old: 

Quote

4. If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, the new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose the original model, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. The new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.

Errata:
 

Quote

4. If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, one new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose any original models, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. That new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.

 

[Zebo]

How has been nerfed Marcus? 

[Scatterbrain]

55 minutes ago, Zebo said:

How has been nerfed Marcus? 

With thanks to @Ogid and @Adran for the information copy-pasted below:

Quote

 

• Pg 12. Actions Generated by Triggers Callout – Paragraph 2
• Change the text of the paragraph to: “Actions generated by Triggers (and any subsequent Actions generated) cannot declare Triggers, and like other generated Actions, they do not count against a model’s Action limit.”

 

Quote

If Marcus makes a model take a charge action, [through Call of the Wild], they can not declare triggers on the attack from that charge action.

So not a direct nerf of Marcus, individually, but an overall rule clarification that does impact on one of his Tactical Actions.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

How has been nerfed Marcus? 

As said above, now charges get no triggers and also the IR nerf hits him harder than to other NVB masters.

Just wrote a bit about it here.

On 3/5/2020 at 11:59 PM, out4egos said:

I should have got away from Marcus a long time ago but he was given to me to get me into the game and I've never been able to part with him and I cannot honestly think of a game I've played in the last year that I didn't take in human reflexes in any crew that I played and never born. Ogid can I still take Miranda and change her to say Jackalope like we were talking about to prevent scoring or has the new replace rules changed that?

Yep, both the relevant rules from Replace and the Totems rules didn't change; that's still an option after you lose the rabbit.

About Marcus... that's up to you, having fun is the ultimate goal of a game and you can still try to adapt your strategies and see how it works now. But if you are a bit burned out of him (or the game after the errata); you may consider give Marcus (or Malifaux) a little break .

[Scatterbrain]

On 3/6/2020 at 8:59 AM, out4egos said:

I should have got away from Marcus a long time ago but he was given to me to get me into the game and I've never been able to part with him and I cannot honestly think of a game I've played in the last year that I didn't take in human reflexes in any crew that I played and never born. 

Surely there is more to Marcus in Neverborn than the previous Inhuman Reflexes upgrade? If you really need Butterfly Jump to win, try putting it on a Beast that doesn't have it natively by using Marcus to attach Feathered Wings instead.  It costs in-game resources to attach it (excepting on Order Initiates, during deployment only), and you are limited to two per crew (instead of potentially four, counting the previous IR). That means a NB Marcus crew can no longer spam it, but it can certainly still go on up to two key Chimera/Beasts. For additional survive-ability upgrades, beyond the new version of Inhuman Reflexes, you would also have access to Armored Plates and Natural Camouflage.

Another suggestion is to use Marcus as a secondary support master while Zoraida is leader, making liberal use of Silurid and The First Mate to Butterfly Jump out of combat, as desired.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Scatterbrain
clarification

[santaclaws01]

I'm gonna agree with I don't see how Marcus was hit particularly hard by the IR change. I'd say he was the least affected by far.

[out4egos]

The butterfly jump.  Not getting my triggers from attacks.  and what I thought was miranda's replace getting nerfed. Though you've shown me it's not... having 4 butterfly jumps was a main stay in Marcus in neverborn. But taking away his trigger attacks from call of the wild or from Paul's attacks as well. That's not allot???  Marcus.  Miranda. Vogul.  Paul.  All give attacks.  Now with no triggers.  

[out4egos]

Anyone who plays Marcus has to constantly think up different ways to keep him going he's very different than other masters. And exparementing and unboxing and trying to come up with outside the box thinking which had led to some very satisfying wins.  He would be the last master I would think should need changing.  So ya I'm upset.  I'm am going to take ogid's advice and a few of my friends abs shelf him I'll never get rid of him.  Euripides will keep me entertained for now.  And nekima will always be worth the ss.

[santaclaws01]

Vogel was barely affected unless you were commonly attacking your own crew for the sick'em trigger. Paul wasn't changed at all. Marcus and Miranda were hurt by the trigger restriction change. As for the IR change, most of the time the 2 extra butterfly jumps weren't on models that were going to get a lot of use out of it. Yesh it hurts him, but only barely. And scamper combined with butterfly jump, stealth and disguised is going to be super annoying for opponents to deal with. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Played against Nekima today. Mature neph were the real deal, even without IR. Nekima got splattered, but that is what happens when you alpha strike and it gets pushed back.

Nekima with IR felt just as annoying with scamper as butterfly jump. I often had to cheat to hit her, but now she was also getting it when I cheat for bonus actions. It was a massive hindrance (leap and ride with me in particular).

[out4egos]

Paul gets 2 attacks off different models. Scent of blood coordinated attack. Now without triggers.  Vogul had fancy cain stick em. You hit your own beast which is almost everyone.  Marcus miranda call off the wild.  I put it on both sabertooths and flight on Marcus miranda.  I'm missing out on a ton of damage with triggers.  Santa do you play Marcus at all?? I use call of the wild to get initial hit in then if model takes enough damage I'll use acompless and finish with whatever saber is in there.  Butterfly Junp allowed me to make my opponent waste ap and position.  It affects almost the whole crew...

[out4egos]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Played against Nekima today. Mature neph were the real deal, even without IR. Nekima got splattered, but that is what happens when you alpha strike and it gets pushed back.

Nekima with IR felt just as annoying with scamper as butterfly jump. I often had to cheat to hit her, but now she was also getting it when I cheat for bonus actions. It was a massive hindrance (leap and ride with me in particular).

I've been unboxing her a lot I think scamper will be very good on her and I'm thinking of a way thoon can do a ice bury and use scamper to move out of the way and have euripides move it 10 inches away.  A way to remove a strong enemy model.  Unboxing only gets you so far.  I should get a few games in today.  Thanks though.  

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, out4egos said:

Paul gets 2 attacks off different models. Scent of blood coordinated attack. Now without triggers.  Vogul had fancy cain stick em. You hit your own beast which is almost everyone.  Marcus miranda call off the wild.  I put it on both sabertooths and flight on Marcus miranda.  I'm missing out on a ton of damage with triggers.  Santa do you play Marcus at all?? I use call of the wild to get initial hit in then if model takes enough damage I'll use acompless and finish with whatever saber is in there.  Butterfly Junp allowed me to make my opponent waste ap and position.  It affects almost the whole crew...

Scent of blood can still do triggers. Coordinated Attack could never do triggers. 0 change.

Unless Vogel was extremely out of position, he'd be better served just changing into the beast and charging himself. Yes, he lost an option. No, the option wasn't something you should often be trying to do.

I never said the trigger change didn't hurt Marcus or Miranda.

[out4egos]

You never use vogul as the beast unless Late in the game or something goes wrong.  His ranged attack and ability to hand out shielded also he removes markers to prevent.  You put him behind the line for a stronger attack like sabertooths.  Your correct I'm wrong in Paul and I've been playing him wrong for a long long time it's a melee attack not charge on scene of blood. So it is just Marcus miranda and vogul.  

[out4egos]

If I used vogul in a saber I would use the tear off bite to heal back as long as the other saber was in range Or miranda .  Onslaught with Marcus and miranda.  It's very situational.  I would use words and push saber up then hit the saber with fancy cain to get the saber charger and boom dead model.  Then butterfly jump after they attack the saber to keep him alive.  Miranda activates heals saber then call of the wild again.  Then if next model isn't dead accomplices to finish of. This is just one strategy but an effective one... the whole process is gone now. 

[Ogid]

On 3/7/2020 at 1:32 PM, Scatterbrain said:

Surely there is more to Marcus in Neverborn than the previous Inhuman Reflexes upgrade? If you really need Butterfly Jump to win, try putting it on a Beast that doesn't have it natively by using Marcus to attach Feathered Wings instead.

Any master may be played after getting nerfed, but it will be just worse; and that's not great for a master that wasn't doing well.

If you go to ARC and remove attuned from Soulstone Cache, Marcus will notice it as we did with this IR change. Would that be the end of ARC Marcus?  No. Would it be a significantly wose master in ARC that will be overshadowed by more competitve options? Most likely yes. Upgrades are huge for masters relying on minions/enforcers.

But you are right that we should try to adapt and see what we can do with the master now. If I get the time, I'll try to make a comparative between what we could do before and what can we do now with Marcus to see what's more or less viable now with the upgrade.

16 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Unless Vogel was extremely out of position, he'd be better served just changing into the beast and charging himself. Yes, he lost an option. No, the option wasn't something you should often be trying to do.

This change was more for when the beast changed into Vogel for healing, if you got a low mask, that was an extra attack for a good beast; and targeting a beast with Armor after using Impassioned defense to give it shielded, you shouldn't damage your own model.

This particular change isn't that big for him, but it adds up.