Getting Started, Competitive Rezzers

[DeadManTalking]

Hello,

I'm switching things up and have decided to hard switch to Rezzers for my competitive play. Looking at it through that lens, what are your 3 must have masters/crews for competitive play?

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Any combination of the following: Seamus, Molly, von Schtook, Kirai, Yan Lo. But new Gaining Grounds are just around the corner, so you might want to hold off with making any decisions.

[Maniacal_cackle]

As said above, the new Gaining Grounds could change everything. Not only are the new strategies a big change, but there's probably lots of new schemes and possibly errata for some models (especially Archie is the one people are calling for a nerf the most. That said...

Competitively, I've seen people in the UK and US win tournament rounds with Molly, Seamus, Dr. McMourning, Von Schtook, Kirai, Reva... Everyone but Yan Lo and Jack Daw, and by all accounts they're still very good (it is probably sculpt availability that was holding them back, and Jack might be better in outcasts). It isn't like Neverborn for example where there are huge power gaps between keywords (although most people would probably vote Reva as the weakest crew and I suspect Seamus as the strongest).

Personally I just solo Molly at every tournament and it works well. She is extremely flexible and can handle most situations (although corrupted idols against like Ten Thunders is brutal). Not that it matters which strategies she is good at if they change them all next week.

I've seen it suggested that Molly, McMourning, and Kirai could probably cover every situation. And I think I've heard that said about... Seamus, Von Schtook, and Kirai? And Molly/Seamus/somebody... There's some good threads floating around.

Personally I'd suggest picking up one crew and mastering it. You will do far better with one crew you're super good at than 3 crews you're okay with (unless you're trying to save on shipping by bulk purchasing, of course).

[Morgan Vening]

16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I'd suggest picking up one crew and mastering it. You will do far better with one crew you're super good at than 3 crews you're okay with (unless you're trying to save on shipping by bulk purchasing, of course).

This is probably the best advice if you're looking at competitive play. Outside of a clearly problematic Strategy, you'll have more success learning the crew fully, than "netdecking" lists that you might not fully understand. 

If you're not going to play competitively, sure, mixing it up adds diversity. But it also means losing points, and often games, as your lack of familiarity causes you to miss key interactions that an experienced player of that Master may not.

The one other thing that might apply (the OP isn't clear), I'd suggest is making sure to round out your crews. The keyword system means getting all the thematic stuff is preferable (both from a SoulStone cost and a synergistic perspective) to just getting 3 crews and mixing and matching the models. Not everything is going to hit, but one full Keyword is better than three Master boxes with no supporting models.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not sure I’d include Seamus on the initial list.

Other than that, I agree, if you are looking to play competitively you’re going to want to play the absolute heck out of each master in your line up. Personally I would advise picking one master, and playing their keyword over and over and over again, even if your scenario or opposing master are bad matchups. If you get used to playing when everything is against you, even if you are losing, it’s going to feel like taking the shackels off when you get a more favorable matchup, and you’ll really intimately see what the master’s keyword is good at, and what it struggles with, which will then give you a better basis for choosing the second master to add to your roster. This has the additional benefit of allowing you to more intimately understand the non master models real strengths and weaknesses and how they might overlap the next master so you can plan a more efficient purchase plan.

[DeadManTalking]

All valid points and my plan is to practice with one master until I know them and their crew inside and out. The only issue is my meta has been experimenting with a tournament rule where you can only play a master once. They are always 3 round tournaments so thats why I was asking about 3 masters.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

All valid points and my plan is to practice with one master until I know them and their crew inside and out. The only issue is my meta has been experimenting with a tournament rule where you can only play a master once. They are always 3 round tournaments so thats why I was asking about 3 masters.

In that case, which masters do you like the look of? Perhaps we can give advice.

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

All valid points and my plan is to practice with one master until I know them and their crew inside and out. The only issue is my meta has been experimenting with a tournament rule where you can only play a master once. They are always 3 round tournaments so thats why I was asking about 3 masters.

The two that might be hindered in completing, are Molly (Forgotten Marshal is sold out on the Wyrd store, but don't know about general availbility, and Archie has been out of stock most places for quite a while*) and Von Shtook (Transmortis is hard to come by***, and even if you do get them, the expanded Students are who knows how far away).

Assuming you're willing to go with 2nd Ed boxes and a Faction Deck (or aftermarket cards or just using the App)...

McMourning is complete.

Seamus is only missing the Dandies*, and the Mourners**. Though you may want to wait on Doxies and Bete, so you can get them with the Dandies.

Yan Lo for Manos and Gokudo. Which complicates things, as you might want to wait for the core for the Gokudo, as the Special Orders propagation is slow.

Reva is mostly complete, though if you want the Wanyudo, you're probably going to want Yan Lo so that the other 3/4 of that box is usable to you if you play Yan Lo as 10T.

Kirai is complete.

* Should be available now, either Jan/Feb release, but don't appear to be yet. Still waiting for my January Pre-Orders to arrive.
** Should be available soon, a March or later release.
*** NFI, no release scheduled. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

 

Yan Lo for Manos and Gokudo. Which complicates things, as you might want to wait for the core for the Gokudo, as the Special Orders propagation is

Manos is in eternal servitude I believe. Gokudo I think are new models so can proxy them until release, but that still makes purchases awkward (will have to double purchase all of the models in M2E core).

EDIT: all of Forgotten are available for preorder on Miniature Market, and they're usually one of the first sites to get models.

I assume you can proxy Transmortis unreleased students, but you're still not going to have Valedictorian so seems pointless.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Yan Lo doesn't need Gokudos in Resurrectionists, as we can summon some Mindless Zombies for replacement and Manos is already available, so I would say that for Ressurs Yan Lo can be considered complete.

[Morgan Vening]

22 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Manos is in eternal servitude I believe. Gokudo I think are new models so can proxy them until release, but that still makes purchases awkward (will have to double purchase all of the models in M2E core).

EDIT: all of Forgotten are available for preorder on Miniature Market, and they're usually one of the first sites to get models.

I assume you can proxy Transmortis unreleased students, but you're still not going to have Valedictorian so seems pointless.

Ahh, I wasn't aware of the Manos release. I'm not as confident as @thatlatinspeakingguy that Gokudo aren't as necessary (that'll depend on GG1, and if Outflank and similar VP scoring stay in the pool*), but they have got a point you can work around it with the Resser hiring pool.

While the Forgotten have technically got a full release, until the Jan/Feb preorders start flowing, it's hard to count them as available yet. And as I pointed out, Archie in particular is nigh impossible to find in M2E packaging, hence it being hard to call it ready.

The big problem I have with proxies (Transmortis), is investing money in them and then because it takes me so long to get them finished, them being released several weeks after (or occasionally before) I get them completed, is just frustrating. If I knew that Students (or Void Hunters, or Scavengers) were a year out, I might be more inclined to get proxies done. But with no clue what Wyrd plans to do with the significant amount of models outstanding, I'm just settled into waiting, playing crews that are more complete.

* A single Gokudo using Ancient Bloodlines, singlehandedly scored me 5VP in one game, corner deployment Idols with Outflank and Power Ritual. First three turns, everything to one side (my left) of the board, against a bubble Hoffman, late Turn 3, resummon a Soulsplit Izamu (who I killed throwing the Idol 3", getting me my first VP, resummoning the Gokudo more than 40" away, who was able to score Outflank on T3, Power Ritual and an Idol point T4 (thanks Risky Business Maneuver), and OF and PR on T5. Asura might have been able to accomplish that too (with less complication), but 40"+ sightlines down the centreline aren't common on most tables I've played on.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

2 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Ahh, I wasn't aware of the Manos release. I'm not as confident as @thatlatinspeakingguy that Gokudo aren't as necessary (that'll depend on GG1, and if Outflank and similar VP scoring stay in the pool*), but they have got a point you can work around it with the Resser hiring pool.

* A single Gokudo using Ancient Bloodlines, singlehandedly scored me 5VP in one game, corner deployment Idols with Outflank and Power Ritual. First three turns, everything to one side (my left) of the board, against a bubble Hoffman, late Turn 3, resummon a Soulsplit Izamu (who I killed throwing the Idol 3", getting me my first VP, resummoning the Gokudo more than 40" away, who was able to score Outflank on T3, Power Ritual and an Idol point T4 (thanks Risky Business Maneuver), and OF and PR on T5. Asura might have been able to accomplish that too (with less complication), but 40"+ sightlines down the centreline aren't common on most tables I've played on.

that's great, but you can choose to play other schemes if you don't have Gokudos or don't want to use them.

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

The big problem I have with proxies (Transmortis), is investing money in them and then because it takes me so long to get them finished, them being released several weeks after (or occasionally before) I get them completed, is just frustrating. If I knew that Students (or Void Hunters, or Scavengers) were a year out, I might be more inclined to get proxies done. But with no clue what Wyrd plans to do with the significant amount of models outstanding, I'm just settled into waiting, playing crews that are more complete.

* A single Gokudo using Ancient Bloodlines, singlehandedly scored me 5VP in one game, corner deployment Idols with Outflank and Power Ritual. First three turns, everything to one side (my left) of the board, against a bubble Hoffman, late Turn 3, resummon a Soulsplit Izamu (who I killed throwing the Idol 3", getting me my first VP, resummoning the Gokudo more than 40" away, who was able to score Outflank on T3, Power Ritual and an Idol point T4 (thanks Risky Business Maneuver), and OF and PR on T5. Asura might have been able to accomplish that too (with less complication), but 40"+ sightlines down the centreline aren't common on most tables I've played on.

I haven't played Yan Lo, but Gokudo do seem absolutely key to his playstyle. Summoning Ashigaru or Mindless Zombies in Ressers just doesn't seem at all similar (completely different pools you want to use those for). Gokudo seem to have far superior mobility, while Toshiro's Ashigaru and things that summon Mindless Zombies generally have better staying power (such as for assassination or claim jump).

Fair point on the proxies, I don't like it either. However, all the TOs in my country will probably allow kit-bashed stuff and sculpts anyway (since it is so hard to get models and ordering them to a remote island nation is even harder). So depending on local metas, it is an option for people to be aware of.

Rules wise - everything in Ressers seems good. It is just a matter of having good combinations.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

53 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I haven't played Yan Lo, but Gokudo do seem absolutely key to his playstyle.

Not really. If you are looking only for a recyclable model to replace it with an Ancestor, than MZ is as good (if not better) as Gokudo. Gokudo is great for some schemes and strategies due to the way he is resummoned, but that's not something I would call "absolute key to Yan's playstyle". I have played both with and without Gokudos (more often without them, actually) so I can assure you that the MZ route works.

Edited March 2, 2020 by thatlatinspeakingguy

[Shakyor]

On 2/29/2020 at 10:46 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

(although most people would probably vote Reva as the weakest crew and I suspect Seamus as the strongest).

Uh wow never heard that, since there is not much recent discussion on Seamus I am aware of, can you expand a little on considering him teh strongest?

And since you seem quite aware with the tournament scene, how would you rank Ressers in general in tournament play compared to other factions.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

Uh wow never heard that, since there is not much recent discussion on Seamus I am aware of, can you expand a little on considering him teh strongest?

And since you seem quite aware with the tournament scene, how would you rank Ressers in general in tournament play compared to other factions.

I wouldn't think of myself as especially aware of the tournament scene, but I do try to follow it a bit!

Seamus seems a bit like the Shenlong of ressers. A weak keyword, backed up by a very powerful master.

Balanced in theory, but in practice with how strong versatile/OOK models are, Seamus can just take some of the best models in the faction. Throw in that he apparently synergises insanely well with carrion emissary, and you get a pretty solid crew with great killing power and a surprising amount of scheming power.

To give a feel for how good Seamus is, he can reasonably easily set up 8-16 damage a turn... But it isn't even the best use of his time necessarily. Like shenlong, he does insane damage and insane scheming all in one.

Just my (actually somewhat uneducated) impression! Certainly Redchapel has gotten a lot of hate over time, but seeing a few of the tournament players talk about Seamus has given me a much better impression of him. The keyword sucks (or so people say), but the master is crazy.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

11 minutes ago, Shakyor said:

Uh wow never heard that, since there is not much recent discussion on Seamus I am aware of, can you expand a little on considering him teh strongest?

Are you kidding? The reason why we don't discuss Seamus is probably because his position as a strong master is undisputable and there's not much more to say on that. Check out these two threads on Seamus:

 and

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, definitely worth reading about Seamus!

I initially dismissed him, but some of the chatter on here made me try a wonky double master crew (Seamus + Reva). The crew was awesome, and it was mostly because anything with Seamus as leader is pretty strong...

Note of course that you really need 3+ pieces of blocking terrain on the centreline/opponent's table half to be able to make full use of him IMO. So there's probably some boards where he wouldn't work.

[Adran]

I think there is a view that Seamus is one of the strongest Masters, but has one of the weakest keywords. I can't tell you how right or wrong that is, but the lists I've seen with Seamus that are doing well often have very few redchapel models.

Tournement results seem to vary quite a lot based on region, which isn't that surprising as people are playing under different restrictions, some only allowing Single master, and others allowing deadmans hand. (and also there is quite a degree of this is what the best player locally has decided to play). In the UK there are certainly events being won with Ressers. But I'm pretty sure those players would be winning events regardless of their faction)

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Note of course that you really need 3+ pieces of blocking terrain on the centreline/opponent's table half to be able to make full use of him IMO. So there's probably some boards where he wouldn't work.

Carrion Emissary creates terrain wherever [edit: kinda] you need it. Too many blocking terrain pieces aren't welcome as well because of cover which is worse than concealment for Seamus.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Carrion Emissary creates terrain wherever [edit: kinda] you need it. Too many blocking terrain pieces aren't welcome as well because of cover which is worse than concealment for Seamus.

Oh right, haven't played him much! I had just assumed he was basically immune to cover since he could position to bypass the cover when he teleports to the blocking terrain (my usual rhythm being teleport, shoot and another action, teleport out).

But I can imagine opponents with lots of practice against Seamus could learn to prevent this.

[DeadManTalking]

Alright so I have a game tonight and I'm playing against one of the strongest players in my meta. I've declared Yan Lo and he's declared Shen Long

Deployment: Wedge

Strat: Reckoning 

Schemes: Harness the Ley Line, Assassinate, Take Prisoner, Claim Jump, Vendetta 

So this looks like a knock down, drag out fight. Harness might cause the crews to spread a little but I have a feeling its just gonna be a big brawl in the middle or hes going to try and keep his distance. My opponent is known for running 2 or even 3 samurai usually with Trained Ninja on 2 of them. What would be your crew going into this? And what would you pick for schemes? For the sake of argument, assume that I have every model available.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

53 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Alright so I have a game tonight and I'm playing against one of the strongest players in my meta. I've declared Yan Lo and he's declared Shen Long

Deployment: Wedge

Strat: Reckoning 

Schemes: Harness the Ley Line, Assassinate, Take Prisoner, Claim Jump, Vendetta 

So this looks like a knock down, drag out fight. Harness might cause the crews to spread a little but I have a feeling its just gonna be a big brawl in the middle or hes going to try and keep his distance. My opponent is known for running 2 or even 3 samurai usually with Trained Ninja on 2 of them. What would be your crew going into this? And what would you pick for schemes? For the sake of argument, assume that I have every model available.

Ouch, that's going to be brutal.

You might not be able to kill all samurai, so Taking one as a prisoner may not be the worst idea. Claim Jump on Izamu is a no-go against so many armor-ignoring models, otherwise would be great. Vendetta depends entirely on his crew, but it's synergistic with the Strategy. It's very likely that he will choose Vendetta on one of his Samurai and your Izamu.

In terms of crew composition: Yan Lo w/GST, Soul Porter, Izamu, Carrion Emissary, Manos, Chiaki w/The Whisper, Komainu is one possibility. Carrion, apart of summoning zombies, can block LoS of his shooters, although not to himself nor to Izamu. Komainu is here to protect you from shooting (they don't ignore armor on their guns) on first two turns. You can also swap Komainu for Yin, which can help you with Take Prisoner, if survives long enough. Another consideration is - as crazy as it sounds - giving up on Manos. He has the best reliquary, but it's value diminishes if they can ignore Demises, his scheming potential may have no impact in this game (although mobility is always valuable), and he will give 3 Recko points. On the other hand, he is mobile, makes them Staggered (no pushes from students!) and Adversary, and has potentially three attacks. So I would most likely still use him, see if he made a difference and draw conclusions for the next game.

Potential first turn play: probably you can figure out early on turn one whether slingshoting Izamu at Samurai (or other thread) is an option. If it is so and if it means you will overextend Izamu, Split his soul, attach reliquary to Yan Lo and summon zombie in a safe place. After Izamu dies on turn one or two, Yan Lo Instills Youth to the zombie, telling him that it is dangerous to go alone and replaces it with Izamu. Sure, you can always summon Zombie closer to Izamu, but then your risk it being killed before Izamu and outside either Recover Lost Souls aura. Sorry if I am saying something obvious to you, but I don't know how many Yan games you already have under your belt.

[edit: just realized it's Wedge deployment. this should be illegal! consider deploying deeper than usual, or you may lost Yan Lo before he turns into a god.]

[DeadManTalking]

I have zero games with Yan. I was thinking of taking Mcmourning. I know hes expensive but he should reliably eat a samurai a turn and has a decent shot of hitting Shen as well. Theres a fair chance my opponents list will be

Shen

2x aspiring students

3x Samurai, 2w/ Trained Ninja, 1w/ Silent Protector 

Yasunori w/ Silent protector

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Alright so I have a game tonight and I'm playing against one of the strongest players in my meta. I've declared Yan Lo and he's declared Shen Long

Deployment: Wedge

Strat: Reckoning 

Schemes: Harness the Ley Line, Assassinate, Take Prisoner, Claim Jump, Vendetta 

So this looks like a knock down, drag out fight. Harness might cause the crews to spread a little but I have a feeling its just gonna be a big brawl in the middle or hes going to try and keep his distance. My opponent is known for running 2 or even 3 samurai usually with Trained Ninja on 2 of them. What would be your crew going into this? And what would you pick for schemes? For the sake of argument, assume that I have every model available.

Well, the bright side is you know where your opponent will need to be to score points (centreline or in your face).

I don't know much about Shenlong's crew, but have looked at Shenlong a bit.

Any assassinate pool makes me consider Toshiro in other crews, so I would consider him here. People don't like him for his aura with Yan, but I reckon his summons are the main reason to hire him in any crew.

Toshiro + ashigaru + mindless zombie will give you two Ashigaru to start with, and then you can keep them going for a while.

EDIT: probably not worth 2 stones for a corpse marker, maybe emissary? But the crew may be too card hungry... Would have to experiment.

Then if you deploy deep, Yan Lo should be as safe as he can be. Position Ashigaru 51mm away from him to avoid blasts but still able to Take The Hit. Use them to eat the melee attacks but not the gun that ignores hard to kill.

Make him work for killing important pieces. Meanwhile, gather your strength and hit his crew hard. You're (almost) as scary as he is!

That's how I'd tackle it anyway.

I see you're considering McMourning. Toshiro works OOK as well, so worth considering.

EDIT: Yin is great at take prisoner if you decide to do that! Very awkward in Reckoning though. It gives the opponent a piece they can just throw at you.