Waldo's Weekly - Waiting for Blood

[Bort]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Its the opposite- it means Obey will work. Because whilst you are doing an obey they are a friendly controlled model, so can remove the marker

Incorrect.  P26

"Regardless of control the model does not change which models it considers friendly and which it considers an enemy. Control changes who makes the decisions it 
does not change the Crew to which the model belongs"

 

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Bort said:

Incorrect.  P26

"Regardless of control the model does not change which models it considers friendly and which it considers an enemy. Control changes who makes the decisions it 
does not change the Crew to which the model belongs"

 

Your rules quote is right.

I am reading the phrase "a Friendly controlled model" to be a model contolled by a model that is friendly to you. So if you are in control of the model at this point it is a friendly controlled model, even if it isn't a friendly model.

Now that I type that out, I can see other readings.

[Bort]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

Your rules quote is right.

I am reading the phrase "a Friendly controlled model" to be a model contolled by a model that is friendly to you. So if you are in control of the model at this point it is a friendly controlled model, even if it isn't a friendly model.

Now that I type that out, I can see other readings.

I'm pretty certain that exact wording was chosen to specifically make them non-Obey.   ie.  Both Friendly to you and Controlled by you.

My reason is, the initial M3E strats was written with the Obey problem. Then GG0 reworded them so Obey doesn't work.  So it wouldn't make sense for them to then bring out new Strats in GG1 with Obey once again being a problem.

Bottom line, I don't think Obeyed models should be scoring strategies. 

 

But yeah, after you explained it I also now understand how you interpreted it.    In your interpretation it almost sounds like only indirect controlled models can score.  So ONLY obeyed models can score because they are friendly models, controlling another model.   

 

*EDIT.  This is similar to the non- tactical action discussion.  

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Bort said:

I'm pretty certain that exact wording was chosen to specifically make them non-Obey.   ie.  Both Friendly to you and Controlled by you.

My reason is, the initial M3E strats was written with the Obey problem. Then GG0 reworded them so Obey doesn't work.  So it wouldn't make sense for them to then bring out new Strats in GG1 with Obey once again being a problem.

Bottom line, I don't think Obeyed models should be scoring strategies. 

 

But yeah, after you explained it I also now understand how you interpreted it.    In your interpretation it almost sounds like only indirect controlled models can score.  So ONLY obeyed models can score because they are friendly models, controlling another model.   

Obey does work in GG0, but the costs are paid by the model with obey, rather than the obeyed model (which tied in with things like cards and soulstone came from your crew).  You can still obey a model to drop an evidence marker for example, and you can certainly obey an enemy to move a cursed idol, only now the obeyer takes the damage rather than the obeyed model.

I was reading it as the intent was to not allow you to remove the opponents scoring markers,

Its worth remembering A model that is in control of its own actions is a "Friendly controlled" model as well

 

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

Obey does work in GG0, but the costs are paid by the model with obey, rather than the obeyed model (which tied in with things like cards and soulstone came from your crew).  You can still obey a model to drop an evidence marker for example, and you can certainly obey an enemy to move a cursed idol, only now the obeyer takes the damage rather than the obeyed model.

I was reading it as the intent was to not allow you to remove the opponents scoring markers,

Its worth remembering A model that is in control of its own actions is a "Friendly controlled" model as well

 

Hehe, well, i'm definitely not going to go into a rules debate with you.  Your knowledge of the rules are far superior to mine.  (Just based on your responses all over this forum).

But it's interesting to see how quickly interpretation can differ.     

And looking at the complete sentence (and what you said) there are quite a lot of info/requirements there.  "Friendly-Controlled model"  as well  as "Enemy Strategy Marker".

 

Basically comes down to does "Friendly-Controlled" mean:

• Friendly and Controlled

or

• Controlled by a friendly.

 

Yay language.

 

 

[Zeus]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

Recover Evidence completely neuters Obliteration to the extent that I would never play that keyword into that strategy. 

At least make it so that you can still bury but if any Intel markers are buried at the end of the turn, they count as buried. Although that would give offensive burying a fair buff... Not sure, but Obliteration (and in particular, The Nothing Beast) does not like the current version... Not at all! 

Totally agree with this.

GG0 corrupted idols had issues with Tara/obliteration crew & to a lesser extent with neverborne & bayou due to certain upgrades & models affecting initiative.

Why introduce a new strategy Recover Evidence in GG1 which pretty much shuts down using a whole keyword & a core game mechanic like bury.

Love this game & generally what the wyrd team do to keep it fresh & balanced, bu sorry to me this just seems like bad game design 👎

[Adran]

I've certainly not tried Tara in Recover evidence, but when I do play Tara, I don't do a lot of self burying, and even when I do self bury its often the summoned models. It may well be my style, but I'm not sure how much this would actually affect the way I played obliteration. I certainly don't think it would make them completely unplayable. I guess we'll have to see. (I also don't kill that many models whilst they are buried).

[S4lt]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

I've certainly not tried Tara in Recover evidence, but when I do play Tara, I don't do a lot of self burying, and even when I do self bury its often the summoned models. It may well be my style, but I'm not sure how much this would actually affect the way I played obliteration. I certainly don't think it would make them completely unplayable. I guess we'll have to see. (I also don't kill that many models whilst they are buried).

I think it's your style.

 

This is a terrible strat for that key word. 

[Paddywhack]

7 hours ago, Adran said:

Its the opposite- it means Obey will work. Because whilst you are doing an obey they are a friendly controlled model, so can remove the marker

So... Zoraida wins Symbols easy then... great. You can't risk leaving anything to guard your own Symbols. 

OK - that was cleared up. I was hopging it would be. 

[mattc]

GG1 has a section with the exact definition of both friendly-controlled and enemy-controlled. 

Quote

Friendly / Enemy-Controlled
A model is friendly-controlled if it is currently controlled by its own Crew, owner, or a friendly model.
A model is enemy-controlled if it is currently controlled by an enemy Crew, player, or model.

 

[farmoar]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

I've certainly not tried Tara in Recover evidence, but when I do play Tara, I don't do a lot of self burying, and even when I do self bury its often the summoned models. It may well be my style, but I'm not sure how much this would actually affect the way I played obliteration. I certainly don't think it would make them completely unplayable. I guess we'll have to see. (I also don't kill that many models whilst they are buried).

One of the guests on the Third Floor Wars Tara episode exclusively plays his Tara as a friendly-bury squad. Major nerf to that playstyle, which I think is a real shame. If this was a nerf aimed at Soulstone Miners, it appears to have gone a little too far.

[Paddywhack]

13 minutes ago, mattc said:

GG1 has a section with the exact definition of both friendly-controlled and enemy-controlled. 

 

Thanks! I was hoping as this was a new term it would be called out in the full rules. Just confusing without all the context.  

[Zeus]

 

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I've certainly not tried Tara in Recover evidence, but when I do play Tara, I don't do a lot of self burying, and even when I do self bury its often the summoned models. It may well be my style, but I'm not sure how much this would actually affect the way I played obliteration. I certainly don't think it would make them completely unplayable. I guess we'll have to see. (I also don't kill that many models whilst they are buried).

Interesting it would be great if you could post in the outcast section as would really be interested in hearing an alternate play style; as far as I can see her main keyword play style is all about maneuverabilty  around the board without this I don’t see the point in her crew.

Into recover evidence as it reads now, you might as well run all OOK/versatile models & just summon minions but what’s the point of that totally defeats the whole point of m3e keywords system then? It’s a terrible strat for obliteration. 

[dzlier]

Could you just make it so that when a model is buried by a friendly effect, it drops its Intel token first?

[S4lt]

Tara really would be hit hard if the other strat is a kill based scenario like Reckoning. 50% of strats Obliteration is bad into. 

[Paddywhack]

22 minutes ago, dzlier said:

Could you just make it so that when a model is buried by a friendly effect, it drops it's Intel token first?

It's so simple I would assume they play-tested that. I'm not sure what the problem might be going that route, but maybe there was one? Would allow the model/crew to do its thing if they really want, but puts the Intel token in potential danger. 

Edit: I see a potential issue. You are a Bury heavy crew and deploy as far back as you can on the table. Bury all the models with Intel tokens T1 and then your opponent has to trudge across the whole table to get them. There is no way to move an Intel token once it is on the table. 

Another option could be like the Reliquaries - if a model with an Intel token were to be Buried, it must pass it's Intel token to another Friendly non-Master model within say 12". That way it stays on the table at least? 

[SEV]

Quote

Could you just make it so that when a model is buried by a friendly effect, it drops it's Intel token first?

This is probably too good for models that can burry themself... But design wise , they have several options if they want to mitigate this effect :  cant burry in you own DZ, when a model burry anywhere else, it drops his marker; when a friedly model is burried by a friedly effect the opponent choose either if the marker is drop there or on the centerline, etc.

Pretty sure the strat was writen this way to keep it simple... But it's unfortunate for my Stolen Soulstones Miners in Tricksy (oh and for Tara too I guess ;-)). 

[dzlier]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

Edit: I see a potential issue. You are a Bury heavy crew and deploy as far back as you can on the table. Bury all the models with Intel tokens T1 and then your opponent has to trudge across the whole table to get them. There is no way to move an Intel token once it is on the table. 

I considered that. And granted the tokens would just be sitting there so they'd be vulnerable, but Tara is also really good at sending the opposing crew back down the board, so it'd be a pretty good defense. I'm not sure which is worse, giving a specific keyword a big advantage into a strategy, or giving a keyword a big disadvantage... Depends on the magnitude I guess. In this case I think the advantage route is less egregious than the disadvantage, but I'm not in the playtesting group.

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

Another option could be like the Reliquaries - if a model with an Intel token were to be Buried, it must pass it's Intel token to another Friendly non-Master model within say 12". That way it stays on the table at least? 

That's a neat idea. And if there's no one to pass it to, then the model can't bury. I like it.

[dzlier]

2 minutes ago, SEV said:

This is probably too good for models that can burry themself...

Models are friendly to themselves, so a self-bury mechanic is still a friendly bury effect. You might still be right, but wasn't sure if you considered that.

[Maladroit]

On 2/27/2020 at 6:59 PM, Ludvig said:

Recover evidence seems to interact weirdly with Tara, Lady Justice and certain demise abilities?

You mean the demise ability which says you do not drop any markers when killed. Which you can build an entire Sonnia crew full of? And a strategy marker is dropped in recover evidence.

"Strategy markers cannot be affected by the effects of models" (p28 of the electronic rules). But the marker does not exist until it is dropped so . . . might need a FAQ or a slight clarification on the card.

edit: got the Strat name wrong. Oops.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Maladroit
Fixed name of strategy

[santaclaws01]

On 2/27/2020 at 11:39 AM, mattc said:

GG1 has a section with the exact definition of both friendly-controlled and enemy-controlled. 

 

So was the inclusion of controlled in symbols to stop something like Zoraida obeying an enemy model to pick up one of Zoraida's symbols to deny VP?

[Mycellanious]

On 2/27/2020 at 3:59 AM, Adran said:

Its the opposite- it means Obey will work. Because whilst you are doing an obey they are a friendly controlled model, so can remove the marker

but not if an enemy Obey's your model to remove your own marker, not only because it isnt friendly controlled, but also because it isnt an "enemy" marker right?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

but not if an enemy Obey's your model to remove your own marker, not only because it isnt friendly controlled, but also because it isnt an "enemy" marker right?

My expectation of intent is only I can remove the markers I need to score from.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

but not if an enemy Obey's your model to remove your own marker, not only because it isnt friendly controlled, but also because it isnt an "enemy" marker right?

All that discussion was before we found out that Friendly-controlled was a game term and was from a frame of reference not really established by just the text of Symbols.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

Ugh, I hope the release will be early this week - Really lookin' forward to the news Strats and schemes