What would you Errata? (Ten Thunders)

[Necrokamo]

41 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Yes, and if her target has HtW (like Yasunori) she draws 3 cards per action. 

Yasunori has Wp 7 and Demeanor (Kitty) has stat 6 and we assume that Kitty did not Cheat damage and won the duel phase.  Sounds like something similar to using Fuhatsu against Zoraida (It's not that it's bad, but you should take more precautions with distances).

Edit: if you use it with your ally it is another issue, but she should limit her hand to 6 cards.

[Zebo]

I'm thinking about her attacking a friendly model with HtW, who relent. That's 4 cards for damage, picking you the card you want to use and drawing the rest. 

Not sure for how long would last Kitty attacking an enemy Yasunory. 

[SerZaka]

3 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Not sure for how long would last Kitty attacking an enemy Yasunory. 

Fortune favours the bold 

[Mycellanious]

5 hours ago, Necrokamo said:

Most of the problem would come from the rival giving him enough negatives to make his move.  I mention again that the problem is the player who does not know what he faces.  How does Kitty draw so many cards?  Does she uses Demeanor twice?

The problem is the Accuracy modifier. Its almost impossible for a model to put Shenlong on a negative flip and most often he's going to be on a positive for the damage. Furthermore, the higher your defense stat is, the harder Shen hits you, which is a bit backwards.

Its not about "giving" Shen negatives, he takes them from the Accuracy modifier and his crew can give him Distracted

[Cursed25]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yes, and if her target has HtW (like Yasunori) she draws 3 cards per action. 

or the depleted which are tanky and in keyword 😉

[santaclaws01]

25 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

The problem is the Accuracy modifier. Its almost impossible for a model to put Shenlong on a negative flip and most often he's going to be on a positive for the damage. Furthermore, the higher your defense stat is, the harder Shen hits you, which is a bit backwards.

Its not about "giving" Shen negatives, he takes them from the Accuracy modifier and his crew can give him Distracted

Exactly this. it's hard to put Shenlong at a negative flip unless you have a really crappy hand and the shenlong player has a really good good hand(which isn't a great position to be in anyways). It's downright impossible for models with HtW to ever put Shenlong at a negative. If you have a model that also has serene countentence or Manipulative, good luck to you. When this gets combined with the easy access to distracted that he has from Students and Low River Monks, his first few attacks are also going to have a positive to hit. And lastly we have a trigger to deal irreducible damage on his main attack. All of this together provides a suite of offensive tech with the only available counters being Combat Finesse, or a combination of Butterfly Jump and high armor+shielded+stones to be able to brunt out the 1/3/5 damage on Falling Rave Kick that thankfully can't become irreducible. Also his effective immunity to conditions for him and his crew thanks to his unresistable condition transfer.

This is the problem with Shenlong. Not Chi, not his healing, not his scheming(although that does need to get FAQed). His ability to take almost any defensive tech you have and either ignore it or gain some kind of benefit from it. The ability to choose a model and always be able to kill it without a few blood sacrifices to the gods of luck on the part of his opponent.

[SerZaka]

59 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

All of this together provides a suite of offensive tech with the only available counters being Combat Finesse, or a combination of Butterfly Jump and high armor+shielded+stones to be able to brunt out the 1/3/5 damage on Falling Rave Kick that thankfully can't become irreducible. Also his effective immunity to conditions for him and his crew thanks to his unresistable condition transfer.

I got destroyed by a Bad Juju lol 

The only model I wasn't worried about. When my opponent declared it I was like "HtW and Demise? Are you sure, I'm going to open it up" 

And yet he charged Shen with him without hesitation. Rg 2" and IR upgrade was instead a true nightmare. When i attacked he moved 1,5" from me , I was always engaged . I lost 2 activation of Shen trying to kill it , at the end I relented . But the game was already a huge defeat (7-2)

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Also his effective immunity to conditions for him and his crew thanks to his unresistable condition transfer.

I think this is fine . Nothing to worry about it . I don't know how you play it but I used it like 3 times in my 10+ last games with him . There is no reason to waste AP doing it when you can throw punches around . 

I transferred once 3 slows from my crew to a Rasputina one but at the end it was simply better to charge a couple of models and take them down . Another time was against the old (open beta) Sandeep , when was able to get 6-7 Focused on each Guard.

But the real cases when it is actually really useful to use his AP in this way I think are a rare. 

But this is my opinion , I use him as a wrecking ball , nothing more.

And also is a good way for casual games to farm Chi in a very inefficient way . Pump up the 2 Students with 3 Chi each and leech it out with Shen for 6 Chi total . Very inefficient compared to other ways of "solo playing" but they require a lot of time and usually in friendly games is more than enough, as there is no real competition there. 

[SerZaka]

About the transfer condition. 

I thought about it a little more . If you don't want to use a Chi to block a Slow (the Ability) you can activate and transfer it . You lose an AP anyway but you also ruin the day to another model. Probably this is one of those rare case . I still prefer to use a Chi for block a Slow .

[santaclaws01]

57 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

When i attacked he moved 1,5" from me , I was always engaged

Falling Rave Kick allows you to move as part of the cost, meaning it doesn't matter if you're engaged or not when you declare it, you're going to be engaging him when you target. Two falling rave kicks(or if you can get pushed into range by someone else first, 1 fury first for irreducible), will get you to his HtK a good portion of the time. After that you can either burn his demise eternal, or attack him with Dragon's Light and just outright kill him. Either way, Juju should be dead during your next activation.

 

57 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I think this is fine . Nothing to worry about it . I don't know how you play it but I used it like 3 times in my 10+ last games with him . There is no reason to waste AP doing it when you can throw punches around . 

It means there's no reason to ever put slow or stunned on Shenlong, because he'll just give it to you himself. It also means he pretty much never has to use Magical Tatoos unless you can actually threaten putting on 5 poison/fire on a Kaeris/McMorning/Brewmaster activation, because on his own he can just send it right back to you.

[Ogid]

6 hours ago, SerZaka said:

Fortune favours the bold 

Close enough! 

[Ogid]

I don't have enough experience versus Shen to know if he is too strong or not. He is a swiss army hammer (XD) with a lot of cool tricks, but the 2 things that bug me out a bit are how irreducible damage and Drunken Kung fu combines (versus other irreducible damage a Master/Henchman can use SS to put that attack in a , versus him that's a ; that's a lot of kill potential versus Master/Henchmans regardless of the cache) and how good denial is Four Winds Punch. I'm not sure if those are a L2P issue or a real power level issue.

I agree Chi it's very good but it doesn't seem to be overperforming in the other monks.

[SerZaka]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Falling Rave Kick allows you to move as part of the cost, meaning it doesn't matter if you're engaged or not when you declare it, you're going to be engaging him when you target. Two falling rave kicks(or if you can get pushed into range by someone else first, 1 fury first for irreducible), will get you to his HtK a good portion of the time. After that you can either burn his demise eternal, or attack him with Dragon's Light and just outright kill him. Either way, Juju should be dead during your next activation.

Actually it is harder than it seems . Between demise and ss you can't kill juju in one activation even flipping only severes . If you are engaged you can keep kicking , yes, but it cost you a lot of chi for an attack without triggers . If you disengage for the Dragon Light you face a Wp 7 dude , and again you don't have irriducibile here . Plus you lose an action for disengage. You can't even use the 1" move after resolving of Falling Kick because you stay right in the engagement. 

Trust me , it is far harder than it seems xD damn Juju 

He actually used a lot of ss but it was worth it , he kept him busy half of the game . Then I said "I'm done" and I killed a couple of Stitched out of frustration XD . The game was already lost 

[santaclaws01]

Just now, SerZaka said:

Between demise and ss you can't kill juju in one activation even flipping only severes

Only if you start your activation engaged by Bad Juju. A mask from a student punch will fix that. Or Sensei Yu. Or a Wandering River Monk. Then you can open with hitting 5 irreducible damage. Now unless Juju gets lucky on ss reduction he's getting brought down to HtK with the next severe damage. If we're talking about the common OOK hires, Kitty. If anyone else even damages Bad Juju then Shenlong is basically assured to be able to either burn his Demise or outright kill him.

[Hanna]

For Sensei Yu and Wandering River Monks, I would like a change.

Every nonsense has the mask built in, except the monk doesn't. The Minion can't buy them and I have to keep them on hand at all times. That really makes it unusable in my eyes.

Yu's ability Brutal Sensei should only apply to enemies, currently it is simply absurd options (my view goes to risky maneuvers). It would also be nice if his damage were adjusted. For a 9 point henchmen that is really poor. Give him the first Rams for free or that he can give himself Fast with a Simple Lesson.

[SerZaka]

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

Lol , is there anyway to remove Quotes from the new messages on the phone? It is so annoying. There was a Clear Message once but when there forum changed it disappeared.

Anyway! @santaclaws01 trust me , you must face it . It was used by the best player in our community however.

29 minutes ago, Hanna said:

Yu's ability Brutal Sensei should only apply to enemies, currently it is simply absurd options (my view goes to risky maneuvers). It would also be nice if his damage were adjusted. For a 9 point henchmen that is really poor. Give him the first Rams for free or that he can give himself Fast with a Simple Lesson.

Probably right now his cost of 9 is correct just because his Aura applies also to Allies . And the trigger to draw 2 cards on the punch is so much better than a ram in my opinion 

 

31 minutes ago, Hanna said:

Every nonsense has the mask built in, except the monk doesn't. The Minion can't buy them and I have to keep them on hand at all times. That really makes it unusable in my eyes.

Yes , it is a little annoying that they are the only Minion without the inbuild mask (maybe the Gulps also?) . But thanks to the Chi they are a little sturdier that other schemers (they can evade the first hit and butterfly away) . With the Chi it is required only a 3 of Mask so if needed there are good possibilities to have it . 

I don't think they are unusable , they are the only 5 ss model in keyword who can move decently . But in my games at the end I find myself using the High as schemers as well . I think I never throw a punch with them . Just a couple of Chi Blasts . 

I use Shen as a weapon mass distraction putting him in the middle supported by 2 Low River and the Students. The other models run around scheming like crazy and killing other schemers . Shen usually ends up dead but by then my opponent wasted to much time and I already sniped out a couple of key models with the master. 

[Ogid]

16 hours ago, SerZaka said:

I got destroyed by a Bad Juju lol 

The only model I wasn't worried about. When my opponent declared it I was like "HtW and Demise? Are you sure, I'm going to open it up" 

And yet he charged Shen with him without hesitation. Rg 2" and IR upgrade was instead a true nightmare. When i attacked he moved 1,5" from me , I was always engaged . I lost 2 activation of Shen trying to kill it , at the end I relented . But the game was already a huge defeat (7-2)

Haha, that sucks! As @santaclaws01 said, theoretically Bad Juju is killable even with IR in one activation by Shenlong. However in practice it's far from easy and require help from other models and even chaging styles and students nearby. Butterfly Jump and range 2 is rough for him.

For example in your case (asuming full wds Bad Juju)

• Bad Juju charge Shenlong and engage at 2'' (he had chosen death!). Important: do not get slow.
• Use any push to put Shen into 1'' range of him (another choice is having equiped the wandering style and use the push to disengage/go into b2b after the first attack).
• Move an student near of Shenlong (position him at 5'' of Shenlong); if the student is not killed (or Bad juju lured) in the next activation, you have a chance to kill bad juju.
• Activate Shen and use Fury stonning/cheating for irreducible, get a Severe (with H2W shouldn't be that hard), bad juju then jumps and engages at 2''.
• Now the tricky part, Rave kick stonning/cheating for change style (go for Severe again), the new style will be Wandering (remember you must change style if the trigger is declared):
  • If he reduces damage and not trigger the demise (he should be at 2 or 1 Wds), use dragon command the student to 4 punch Shen out of engagement, then shen may Dragon light Juju out of the game (use chi to boost the stat to 8 because his Wp is 7). If he is at 3 Wds and shenlong use Focused, it will require luck. Asuming a damage flip around 1/3 times you wouldn't get a weak hit (asuming a fresh deck).
  • If the demise triggers, he will be at 4 Wds. Use dragon command the student to 4 punch Shen into 1'' range of Bad Juju, then Shenlong may Fury him with irreducible damage (here he won't have drunked but with Chi is stat 8 vs Df 3 and he may use focused, he needs a card 1 point better than him to get an straight damage flip), with a Severe hit he is gone.

If he is at 6-7 Wds it's much easier, just push him into mele with other model; Fury irreducible severe, then Rave kick a nearby model/walk/commanded student 4punch him out, and then dragon light boosted with chi. If you can't use students, then you have to damage him a bit before pushing Shenlong into b2b (and that can be countered by a model bringing Bad Juju to high heath again).

As said above, it's doable but hard if the other player see it coming and reacts well, and it also require some luck and the right cards in the hand to get all those severes: Bad Juju should try to cheat the lowest possible card to give  to shenlong (in this case his Df3 is and advantage for him), and shenlong needs to cheat last (if not Bad Juju may either give him or dodge the attack if shenlong go greedy and cheat low first). As he has H2W, Shenlong should still have at least a straight damage flip, so he better has a terrific hand to being able to cheat 2 severes if things go south and still have a good card to secure the dragon light duel to kill him in one activation (at full heath). Shenlong may try to get a few extra severes in the hand with Yasunori/Kitty, but Zoraida may reset both hands, so this isn't reliable. Also all this is so tight that a BJ will ruin it.

If Bad Juju is not killed, he at least should be on the brink of death and any model should be able to kill him. If you think you can't do it in one activation, then go deal with enemy healers first; because if you fail to pull this off, the next activation of Zoraida will be healing him back into 5-6 Wds range.

But being said all this... Zoraida (and probably any other model of that crew) is a much easier target if Shenlong has Masked agent; leave Bad Juju alone and destroy the rest of the crew!

[SerZaka]

I was against a Dreamer . He hired BJJ OOK 

9ss cache , lol 

My plan was to go after the Dreamer himself soon but I got stuck by that damn pile of mud . I don't know if I could kill the Dreamer anyway. Serena Bowman as bodyguard is hard to get over  

I simply thought wrongly that Shen was able to steamroll every model in the game xD 

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, SerZaka said:

I was against a Dreamer . He hired BJJ OOK 

9ss cache , lol 

My plan was to go after the Dreamer himself soon but I got stuck by that damn pile of mud . I don't know if I could kill the Dreamer anyway. Serena Bowman as bodyguard is hard to get over  

I simply thought wrongly that Shen was able to steamroll every model in the game xD 

XD, Shenlong has the tools to deal with almost every model in the game, but it needs some planning and sometimes a bit of luck; charging in won't always work haha.

9SS is reasonable with him, that crew is stone hungry, not sure of that versus Shenlong tho. A few thoughts for your next Dreamer game with the monk (in the spoiler box):

 

Dreamer out of position will die fast, but he should always have at least 1 other Nightmare near. First thing to consider is if you may isolate him, you don't really need to kill serena, just push her away with other model (but Shenlong may take her out in one activation if needed tho; which may make your game easier). If that's is not an option and you still want to engage dreamer then the main thing to consider when going after the boy is protected, the big dissadvantage for dreamer is Protected require cards but the crew has little to no card draw; at the end of the turn he should have few cards (you may consider including something to attack the hand if you really want to enable a hit on The Dreamer). In this scenario you want to engage in range of both the Dreamer and the protected target. If he use protected, then you go for Onslaught to overwhelm and kill fast that target while costing him resources; if he doesn't redirect then go for irreducible damage to secure that hit (unless he has no SS; or you want to make him burn SS, in which case you may consider onslaught). Shenlong may even get Distracted +5 or +6 in turn 1 easily, equip Fermented and go straight for Dreamer; Serene countenance plus Distracted will be 3 cards per flip. Another option is giving him a good stack of Focused and Chi instead and blast Serena with high river style while damaging Dreamer at the same time; this is expensive and require Serena a bit misspositioned (2'' == 50.8 mm;  == 50 mm), but he may kill Serena while splashing 9 damage and Burning+6 to the boy.

But going after the dreamer may not always be the right choice, in Nightmare there are some non tanky models that may be worth killing early like Coppelius, Daydreams (which also tend to have Ancient Pact equiped, which is card draw to protect Dreamer and are the heart of his Lucid Dream machine) or even LCB as Shenlong may deal irreducible damage (and you'll want to kill him before he may start to use trail of gore, and it also hurts the LD machine). Also Dreamer may hire stitcheds or leave heavy hitters near to discourage Shenlong from diving. Stitcheds aren't that bad deal for you tho, they deal high steady damage (unless someone ends at 6'' of them and Dreamer decide to push his luck, but that may backfire for him) and they slow the LD machine removing high cards instead of low cards; plus monks have a lot of healing, just be careful to not leaving a model in range of 2 of them if healers can't support it; also mind Samurais are well suited to deal with Stitcheds in mele (and may pressure Dreamer from afar with their built in and "free" Focused).

Consider also Chi is better han Lucid Dreams for winning duels, specially early in the game. In latter turns (4 and 5) it start to balance a bit more (unless it's a low LD list, he overused stitcheds or LD models were killed in turn 1-2), in average Chi will still be better for duels (and TT has also way more card draw to compensate), but LD will enable him to get more easily moderate/severe damage than Shenlong (which is also why Coppelius has to die fast), that won't be a big deal if most of Dreamer's heavy hitters are already dead by that point tho.

And just point out an interesting tech choice: Charm Warders (ignoring demises to kill Serena, ignore incorporeal, Exorcism trigger, Chaos Theory to try to nuke daydreams from the other side of the board).

Hope it helps!

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, SerZaka said:

Anyway! @santaclaws01 trust me , you must face it . It was used by the best player in our community however.

I have. I didn't have Juju charged into me first and instead softened him up with a thunder archer first, but again that only really moves the territory from maybe Shenlong can 1-round Juju to Shenlong will 1-round Juju. 

 

Also, Shenlong should never really get bogged down on anyone. FRK is a free move ignoring models. Just go and kill Serena.

[Drowsheep]

On 2/22/2020 at 6:55 AM, Zebo said:

I'm thinking about her attacking a friendly model with HtW, who relent. That's 4 cards for damage, picking you the card you want to use and drawing the rest. 

Not sure for how long would last Kitty attacking an enemy Yasunory. 

I think if you did that you would have to discard down to your maximum hand size right away (so it's potentially worth it your hand has mostly been spent and you want to redraw up, but otherwise it's not AS useful--still good, but you'd have to discard).

Also, unless you Black Joker it, you're still damaging your own model--on a Depleted that's fine, but I don't think I'd awant to throw damage onto my own Yasunori.  Plus, even with a lot of cards, there's potential you flip all mod/sev, and that would be a shame.  

Combine all that with the fact that the suit isn't built in, I'd say that it's not *broken*--is it good?  for sure.

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, Drowsheep said:

I think if you did that you would have to discard down to your maximum hand size right away (so it's potentially worth it your hand has mostly been spent and you want to redraw up, but otherwise it's not AS useful--still good, but you'd have to discard).

Also, unless you Black Joker it, you're still damaging your own model--on a Depleted that's fine, but I don't think I'd awant to throw damage onto my own Yasunori.  Plus, even with a lot of cards, there's potential you flip all mod/sev, and that would be a shame.  

Combine all that with the fact that the suit isn't built in, I'd say that it's not *broken*--is it good?  for sure.

When Kitty activates she gets to cycle 2 cards from her hand into the deck(or just reorder the top 2 cards of the deck, or some other combination). Easy way to both ensure the trigger and ensure a weak hit. Even in the worst case where you don't have a mask in hand, a single stone for 4 cards is a great trade.

[Drowsheep]

22 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

When Kitty activates she gets to cycle 2 cards from her hand into the deck(or just reorder the top 2 cards of the deck, or some other combination). Easy way to both ensure the trigger and ensure a weak hit. Even in the worst case where you don't have a mask in hand, a single stone for 4 cards is a great trade.

I suppose so; but it’s a single stone and some damage on another model probably.  So I still don’t think it’s *broken*.

and if that’s the issue, just demote her to enforcer.  Then she can’t use SS.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Drowsheep said:

I suppose so; but it’s a single stone and some damage on another model probably.  So I still don’t think it’s *broken*.

and if that’s the issue, just demote her to enforcer.  Then she can’t use SS.

It's likely to be 1 or at most 2 damage. Even the worst case scenario of doing 3 damage means you're putting 2-3 severe cards into your hand. You do it on an easily replacable model, or a model with armor and that doesn't even matter. People also spend a stone for 2 cards at the begging of the turn, why would you not do it for 2-3 cards during the turn, especially if it refreshes your hand. That's not even getting to if this is in a Lynch crew then there have been a lot of activations of looking at cards to fish for a low mask to not even need to stone.


As for making her an enforcer, why nerf the entire model when the only problem the model has is that the trigger can be used on friendly models as well instead of just making it enemy only?

[Drowsheep]

23 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:As for making her an enforcer, why nerf the entire model when the only problem the model has is that the trigger can be used on friendly models as well instead of just making it enemy only?

Lol—you’re right.  For some reason I thought that had already been mentioned and ruled out XD

There are a lot of abilities that specify enemy only, this would be an easy change.