What would you Errata? (Ten Thunders)

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

14 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I think that she is the only one who can actually put sin token of enemies simply attacking them ,without triggers.

Pride does the same with his Guitar Bash.

[Drowsheep]

On 2/19/2020 at 1:22 AM, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Just to be clear: as I said a post earlier, the problem with ubiquitous versatiles in my local TT meta is not pertinent to every TT master, but to four: Shenlong, Misaki, Asami and Youko. Not sure about McCabe, as I played against him before Hucksters were released, so options were naturally limited for my opponent.

That’s what I’m saying; I don’t ever run versatiles with Misaki, Asami, or Youko (again—I haven’t played that much Shenlong in 3e—though I wouldn’t run versatiles with him either?).  The models in their thematic crew are sufficient.

I’lol grant you that TT has more versatile models than other factions; but I would just give some of them keywords so they are t versatile.  If that’s really the issue you have; is that people are bringing good versatile models.

my counter point is that most other factions have a selection of models from support to beaters that are versatile.  Or, just increase the number of versatile models in each faction.

the issue is that TT is newer and was originally based off of Masters who were all multi-faction, so many of their early models  for TT were pushed out to balance the number of options in 2e and were designed to be generic so they can go with any master, no?  Other (More) established factions have masters that have been been around for a while, so more models that were released over time were part of one of the other masters already there.

On 2/19/2020 at 2:57 AM, Jinn said:

I think Youko needs a lot of help personally, but I know quite a few people feel that she's fine as she is. I think most of her models are okay (Kabuki Warriors) to excellent (Hinamatsu, Kunoichi) but they are let down by Youko herself. I admit, until she's got the rest of her models and is played in big tournaments I can't really draw any useful conclusions beyond my personal experience with her. That withstanding, if she is weak then here is where I think she needs a buff:

1. Youko's survivability. She is absolutely shredded by focus and most of her actions/auras are relatively low range. Giving her back disguised would go a long way to keeping her alive an extra turn or so to do her aura shenanigans while leaving her with a weakness to ranged.
2. Blackmail is pretty damn weak against a smart player who is familiar with her (outside of niche actions, which I think are their own problem). It is effectively a stat 6, range 6", non-inbuilt Obey that has the upside of getting two pass tokens and both the downside of being unable to target friendlies, and the downside that your opponent can block it by discarding two cards (rarely will this be the better choice but, because it is up to them, a good opponent will usually use this option to their advantage, not yours). Viewing it in this light I don't think it would be unreasonable to get the inbuilt and/or to increase the range to 12".

I have never had a problem with Youko; I love playing her, and she’s my favorite model to activate almost every turn.

if I can get her behind cover, or in some concealing terrain, I just leave her there and dish out the control.  
 

The issue I had all through 2e—and it seems to be the same in 3e, is that people complain about some models being underwhelming while I’m living the dream playing good games with them, while other models are just labeled OP and the default—when they’re not.

I’m not saying that nothing needs to be tweaked and fixed.  But in my meta I’d say we have a diverse group of players, and we all win some and lose some; Minako—for example—has won me some games—other times, she got beaten or shot to death without making a great impact.

The few games I’ve played with Shenlong and Lynch in  3e have left me feeling underwhelmed, though I still had fun.  Yet those are the masters people keep saying are OP.

TT is the faction about playing to the schemes; and I think they do a great job of it.  That is the faction gimmick, and I don’t think too much honestly needs to get changed.

i think the issue is that people like to follow the trends of what’s *meta* and then get caught up in that.  I haven’t played anything in TT that I would are is “broken”.  If we want to talk I about broken, let me redirect you to the Neverborn forums :P

[Necrokamo]

In the first months of 3e (during the beta) everyone claimed that Lynch was unfair, time passed and Dreamer took that place, currently Sheng Long has given his throne to Nekima (who was crowned undefeated in LVO).  

In the Neverborn forum I don't see anyone tearing their clothes by Nekima, Zoraida or Dreamer.

The edition is advancing in the competitive and still has to see the new models enter strongly in competition (Apex, Savage among others).

[santaclaws01]

11 hours ago, Necrokamo said:

currently Sheng Long has given his throne to Nekima (who was crowned undefeated in LVO).  

Uh... what? Barely anyone is saying that Nekima is too strong. The only place i see any complaining about her is the Bayou forums, a faction that Nekima is very well suited to just running roughshod over for the most part. Hell a lot of peoples initial reaction to seeing a Nekima solo win at LVO was too dismiss the rest of the field as just bad. 

 

Also I never saw more than like 2-3 people ever claiming Lynch was too strong at any point in the beta, and Dreamer was incredibly volatile in the beta. Anybody else remember Insidious Madnesses when they had Distraction and the crew ability was to take a melee attack on someone failing a Wp duel?

[Mycellanious]

26 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Uh... what? Barely anyone is saying that Nekima is too strong. The only place i see any complaining about her is the Bayou forums, a faction that Nekima is very well suited to just running roughshod over for the most part. Hell a lot of peoples initial reaction to seeing a Nekima solo win at LVO was too dismiss the rest of the field as just bad. 

 

Also I never saw more than like 2-3 people ever claiming Lynch was too strong at any point in the beta, and Dreamer was incredibly volatile in the beta. Anybody else remember Insidious Madnesses when they had Distraction and the crew ability was to take a melee attack on someone failing a Wp duel?

I too havent seen the Lynch or Nekima complaints. I mean, there is a days long discussion going on right now in the "So are Arcanists, Thunders, and Outcast the dominant factions?" thread about whether or not Nekima is worse than a Mature Nephilim. 

I think there is clearly a problem with Dreamer. I think he's supposed to be strong late, but weak early however I have been consistantly tabled by Dreamer on turn 3, and from the new 3rd floor wars podcast that doesnt sound unusual. 

I also think Shenlong is clearly a problem, for 2 reasons.

1. Drunken Kung-Fu is harmful to the game and in practice is so overtuned that I have only seen any other Style upgrade on him once, the healing one because I tried to Assassinate him. 

2. It needs to be clarified that the Scheme Markers he removes and then drops do not suddenly become his Scheme Markers. Its clear to me its not intended to work that way, and that some people are ruling it that way kind of hurts my soul

Thats it. Chi is fine. Irreducible dmg is fine. Just those 2 things and hed be great

[SerZaka]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I too havent seen the Lynch or Nekima complaints

Lynch had a bit of hate at the start of the closed beta , but I don't remember why (about the Summoning ability, it was stronger ). And at the start of the open because the bonus action of Huggy didn't offer any simple duel to avoid the Slow. It was more like a "and now I give slow to half of your crew"

[Ogid]

54 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

And at the start of the open because the bonus action of Huggy didn't offer any simple duel to avoid the Slow. It was more like a "and now I give slow to half of your crew"

Plot twist: Huggy got itself a horse, leaved a Doppleganger in its place and migrated to Guild 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I think there is clearly a problem with Dreamer. I think he's supposed to be strong late, but weak early however I have been consistantly tabled by Dreamer on turn 3, and from the new 3rd floor wars podcast that doesnt sound unusual. 

It depends on how Dreamer buid the crew... A Dreamer crew with few to no minions won't have that strong late game, but it will be dangerous from turn 1; a crew with a fair amount of minions and few henchman/enforcers/versatiles is the one weak early but very scary at the end of the game if most of those minions survived the first 2 turns.

[Mycellanious]

18 minutes ago, Ogid said:

It depends on how Dreamer buid the crew... A Dreamer crew with few to no minions won't have that strong late game, but it will be dangerous from turn 1; a crew with a fair amount of minions and few henchman/enforcers/versatiles is the one weak early but very scary at the end of the game if most of those minions survived the first 2 turns.

I mean, not really. Dreamer's Crew has the most min 3 damage in Keyword in the game and he can summon some tanky minions in. 

New The Dreamer Crew (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  The Dreamer
Totem(s):
  Lord Chompy Bits + Inhuman Reflexes
Hires:
  Serena Bowman
  Coppelius
  Teddy
  Daydream
  Daydream 2
  Daydream 3
  Stitched Together
References:
  Alp
  Daydream
  Insidious Madness
  Stitched Together
  Waking Dream

A list like this for example still Lucid Dreams like crazy, will table you by turn 3, every model in this crew is difficult to kill, still has Activation control because its a 9 model crew, and still has plenty of stones to spend on summons or keeping keeping Dreamer alive.

[Ogid]

Nightmare is great for the versatility it offers, you can go all offensive from turn 1, use LD to build a good late game or funnel that LD into agression early with the stitcheds if things get hairy; there is also a fair number of models with that keyword and it works well with versatiles/OOK (it has its dissadvantages of course). However having a high number of models is more a disadvantage than an advantage, pass tokens will let your oponent either wait until you activate some models or frontload the damage and get initiative bonuses to strike first the next turn.

That's a good list, but a bit risky imo; Teddy without IR can die fast to a dedicated beater and at least 1 AP may be interesting to include for the card draw and to not lose initiative that hard, 6 cache should be enough but it's a bit low to my taste with him (personal preference tho, but between triggers and keeping him and chompy alive 6SS runs out quickly). Also if the other player includes Ruthless, models like Coppelius and LCB may be focused down fast (and Teddy without IR too), that list has a lot of damage tho and some denial, but few scheming tricks; also a fast model able to threat Daydreams may gut the LD potential of that list pretty quickly.

However I kind of feel bad for highjacking the TT errata thread to discuss Nightmare... maybe we may open a thread in NVB subforum for this?

[CD1248]

3 hours ago, Ogid said:

It depends on how Dreamer buid the crew... A Dreamer crew with few to no minions won't have that strong late game, but it will be dangerous from turn 1; a crew with a fair amount of minions and few henchman/enforcers/versatiles is the one weak early but very scary at the end of the game if most of those minions survived the first 2 turns.

Dreamer can get the Lucid Dream engine going with just 3 hired Daydreams (which are a fantastic 3pt model aside from that). LCB has it, plus all the summons. So that's 5 Lucid Dreams on turn 1 for just a 9ss investment.

[Irritated Walrus]

On 2/16/2020 at 9:49 AM, SerZaka said:

She is the great mystery . Probably because no one wants to actual use her until the Kabuki are out . A Master that ,reading the card, you want in the middle of the enemy crew but at the same time you really don't want her there lol

I proxied her just a couple of times. Her crew can't obviously take a punch to the face , but that's fine . You have Foundry and Ancestors for that. They are very slow in keyword , no actual pushes except the Lures . You can use the Geisha as taxi but I think is the wrong way to use them , far better to lure enemy out of position . The combo Distracted spam of Youko and Kunoichi is fun. 

I don't like her just because of her mobility , that is everything in this edition (at least in this GG ) . But actually there are some Versatile for that if you accept to go out-of-theme (thing that I hate personally). But hey, Yasunori was a performer once , right?

I played a game against a TT player that proxied some Kabuki. They are insanely good. Charm Warders are also troublesome models.

In our meta we've experienced a lot of issues with Chi. Had a player drop Shen Long to one wound on consecutive turns only to see him healed to full at the end of each turn by dropping a significant amount of Chi. I understand the reason why Chi is a token, but it simply seems too strong in our meta. It wouldn't be fair to be able to eliminate Chi  completely with Dispel Magic either by making it focus or a condition. 

There are also a few models that become disgusting with upgrades. Woku Raiders with Trained Ninja on them? You can't shoot them, you can't cheat when in melee with them, they are unimpeded, and can deploy anywhere they like, they can gain stealth easily, have + flips built in on their sword, and can move enemy scheme markers. All that costs 10 points, but its worth it in a Misaki list with Shang to heal them. 

It could be that Chi and Raiders are simply a knot that we haven't researched to counter properly, but yeesh.

Combat Finesse take away an essential element to the game. There is no reason why one shouldn't be able to cheat unless the duel is at a negative due to a terrain modifier. 

[SerZaka]

2 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

In our meta we've experienced a lot of issues with Chi. Had a player drop Shen Long to one wound on consecutive turns only to see him healed to full at the end of each turn by dropping a significant amount of Chi. I understand the reason why Chi is a token, but it simply seems too strong in our meta. It wouldn't be fair to be able to eliminate Chi  completely with Dispel Magic either by making it focus or a condition. 

There are also a few models that become disgusting with upgrades. Woku Raiders with Trained Ninja on them? You can't shoot them, you can't cheat when in melee with them, they are unimpeded, and can deploy anywhere they like, they can gain stealth easily, have + flips built in on their sword, and can move enemy scheme markers. All that costs 10 points, but its worth it in a Misaki list with Shang to heal them. 

It could be that Chi and Raiders are simply a knot that we haven't researched to counter properly, but yeesh. 

I don't get the "healing by dropping Chi" . Is he healed by a Low River Monk? You can get rid of him easily with a single shot of gun. Is he healing himself throwing out 3 cures by the Low River Style? That's fine , if he is healing himself he is not killing or removing schemes . And this type of "meditation turn" is extremely dangerous . You actually lower your Chi by 2 (3-1 from start of activation) and you don't get any from attacking, you are going to be shredded without Chi for the defense flips.

Running around with Shang for heal a Wokou is a questionable way to act. He should be kept in the most secure  part of your deployment to heal back Misaki when she is stroke back after she killed 1-2 fragile models preparing her for the next turn (without mentioning the power of Arcane Reservoir). At the beginning of the M3E I was one of those who kept Misaki out of combat until the last activation . In that way I had an Immortal Master... But an useless one . After some matches my opponents learned how to avoid completely her , so I started to reveal her sooner (a lot of times even as first/second activation) and in this way she is so much more competitive.

What does "they can gain Stealth easily" mean?

[santaclaws01]

29 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Had a player drop Shen Long to one wound on consecutive turns only to see him healed to full at the end of each turn by dropping a significant amount of Chi.

That is, a LOT of Chi. Even just doing it once is a significant investment of actions, Chi and/or high cards. But doing it two turns in a row? That crew is not getting pressured enough.

[Irritated Walrus]

11 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I don't get the "healing by dropping Chi" . Is he healed by a Low River Monk? You can get rid of him easily with a single shot of gun. Is he healing himself throwing out 3 cures by the Low River Style? That's fine , if he is healing himself he is not killing or removing schemes . And this type of "meditation turn" is extremely dangerous . You actually lower your Chi by 2 (3-1 from start of activation) and you don't get any from attacking, you are going to be shredded without Chi for the defense flips.

Running around with Shang for heal a Wokou is a questionable way to act. He should be kept in the most secure  part of your deployment to heal back Misaki when she is stroke back after she killed 1-2 fragile models preparing her for the next turn (without mentioning the power of Arcane Reservoir). At the beginning of the M3E I was one of those who kept Misaki out of combat until the last activation . In that way I had an Immortal Master... But an useless one . After some matches my opponents learned how to avoid completely her , so I started to reveal her sooner (a lot of times even as first/second activation) and in this way she is so much more competitive.

What does "they can gain Stealth easily" mean?

The healing is done with a combo of Long and the Low River. A good player is never putting a healing piece like the Low River in a spot where they are getting killed that easily. The versatility of Chi is pretty brutal. 

Trained Ninja gives them Stealth "easily". 

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

The healing is done with a combo of Long and the Low River. A good player is never putting a healing piece like the Low River in a spot where they are getting killed that easily.

The counter point to this is that a good player is never going to waste actions on killing a HtK master when said master can just be healed to full quickly. And then do it again the next turn.

[Irritated Walrus]

8 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The counter point to this is that a good player is never going to waste actions on killing a HtK master when said master can just be healed to full quickly. And then do it again the next turn.

That's a fairly strange statement when so many of the games scoring objectives require you to kill models. Scoring off reckoning late game, assassinate, flipping turf war markers, requires you to kill a master at times. Sure there are always other sources to score points that make more sense, but I haven't seen that ability to heal in any other crew.

Don't forget that Revitalize is a 2/3/4 flip per Chi which can be cheated, AND friendly models within (1) of the target heal 1. Guild doesn't have any healing with that track. 

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Irritated Walrus said:

That's a fairly strange statement when so many of the games scoring objectives require you to kill models. Scoring off reckoning late game, assassinate, flipping turf war markers, requires you to kill a master at times. Sure there are always other sources to score points that make more sense, but I haven't seen that ability to heal in any other crew.

Don't forget that Revitalize is a 2/3/4 flip per Chi which can be cheated. 

You said a good player makes it hard to go after Low River Monks. A good player would also know that the Low River Monks need to be killed before trying to kill Shenlong unless they have some way to either A) Ignore HtK or B) ensure that Shenlong gets to 1 health and still be able to take an action to kill him.

Also, of all the things you just listed, only one of them requires their master to be killed, and it's not a scheme that should be taken against quite a few masters, Shenlong among them, unless you have specific anti-tech for them.

[Irritated Walrus]

6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You said a good player makes it hard to go after Low River Monks. A good player would also know that the Low River Monks need to be killed before trying to kill Shenlong unless they have some way to either A) Ignore HtK or B) ensure that Shenlong gets to 1 health and still be able to take an action to kill him.

Also, of all the things you just listed, only one of them requires their master to be killed, and it's not a scheme that should be taken against quite a few masters, Shenlong among them, unless you have specific anti-tech for them.

Please explain to me how you plan on scoring full points on Reckoning without killing an enemy master? It seems like you are arguing for the sake of arguing. You aren't even arguing for anything specifically as to why Chi and some of the styles don't need to be looked at. 

Ignoring a master because it is too difficult to kill them is a great way to lose a game. 

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Please explain to me how you plan on scoring full points on Reckoning without killing an enemy master?

If a person has enough damage to get a master down to 1 wd on two consecutive turns, they have enough damage to kill other things to score from reckoning. Or they have enough board control to take out the support for that master staying alive. In the specific scenario you posted, the person playing against shenlong was objectively doing things wrong. This isn't just me going "git gud scrub", this is me saying to not do something, see that it didn't work, and then try it again with no significant changes.

 

8 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

You aren't even arguing for anything specifically as to why Chi and some of the styles don't need to be looked at. 

I've been arguing as to why your example wasn't a good example as to how strong Chi is in a game. I don't know why you're mentioning my lack of defense of the styles, because you've literally only mentioned a style in your last post and made no comment on whether you think it's too strong or not.

[SerZaka]

I don't get how a Low River Monk shouldn't be a priority over the master. Anyway in reckoning you must kill him before the master otherwise the 3 points are wasted ...

Anyway like I said before my opponents are more than fine when I waste 1 entire activation of Shen Long for healing him up instead of killing 2-3 models (with my luck on the damage flips) . Take down the Students, Low , Shen . In this order. The Monks are finished. 

 

Without his Chi Shen is on the weaker side of the master-chart in term of survivability . With Df 5 and only HtK on your side

 

[Irritated Walrus]

14 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

If a person has enough damage to get a master down to 1 wd on two consecutive turns, they have enough damage to kill other things to score from reckoning. Or they have enough board control to take out the support for that master staying alive. In the specific scenario you posted, the person playing against shenlong was objectively doing things wrong. This isn't just me going "git gud scrub", this is me saying to not do something, see that it didn't work, and then try it again with no significant changes.

 

I've been arguing as to why your example wasn't a good example as to how strong Chi is in a game. I don't know why you're mentioning my lack of defense of the styles, because you've literally only mentioned a style in your last post and made no comment on whether you think it's too strong or not.

To score on the last point of Reckoning, you have to kill four total models. In turn 5 its not really possible to kill 4 models if you've already scored three points off the strat. The model count in the game doesn't allow for it. You're going to need to take out a master and another model or a hench and a combo of other models since the master and hench are worth more. Having enough damage to kill other things isn't valid when there aren't enough other models to kill on the table. 

I think limiting the healing of Revitalize to 1/2/3 and allowing Chi to only add a +1 instead of a +2 is more than fair. 

Drunken Kung Fu also totally subverts the way defense works in the game and needs to be looked at as well. 

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Irritated Walrus said:

To score on the last point of Reckoning, you have to kill four total models. In turn 5 its not really possible to kill 4 models if you've already scored three points off the strat. The model count in the game doesn't allow for it. You're going to need to take out a master and another model or a hench and a combo of other models. Having enough damage to kill other things isn't valid when there aren't enough other models to kill on the table. 

Why are you talking about hypotheticals when I'm responding to a specific situation? Your hypothetical can't even apply to the specific situation you posted, of a person already having scored 3 points from reckoning by turn 5, while also getting shenlong down to 1 health on both turns 4 and 5(from full on turn 5), and there are still 2 monks of low river alive to help heal shenlong up to full.

 

7 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

I think limiting the healing of Revitalize to 1/2/3

For the cost of a chi? No. That's literally Healing Energy but with a cost.

 

8 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

allowing Chi to only add a +1 instead of a +2 is more than fair. 

If monks get a defensive stat increase as compensation, sure.

[SerZaka]

Spending 1 Chi for a 1/2/3 cure would be hilarious xD just remove the upgrade from the game lol

[Irritated Walrus]

34 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

Spending 1 Chi for a 1/2/3 cure would be hilarious xD just remove the upgrade from the game lol

I’d be fine with that considering they currently can spend a Chi for a 2/3/4 heal, which is higher than pretty much every healing track in the game, and that skill can be given to multiple models.