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@Gaston I do definitely think Myranda is worth her cost, its just a matter of how she's used on the table. She kind of wants to be everywhere and with only 2 actions it can be a lot to ask. Her healing is bonkers and Its nice to get a bit of card cycle early when next to Marcus.  She can dip from combat by mutating into something else... She's pretty sturdy with the Huntress aura and 6s for everything. A solid 9ss henchman, IMO.

@Ogid  I'm still learning when and how to play Marcus into GG1. Its definitely a lot more difficult and with the nerfs to his no triggers on his call of the wild action the crew has lost a lot of its killing prowess.  The schemes and strats are definitely a bit less workable for his crew too. Bombs and  Corner/Corrupted Idols was pretty good for his crew.

With that said, they're still extremely maneuverable and decently killy, lacking any staying power. So I dont see going into the teeth of enemy crews anymore or trying to mosh pit in the middle with most of my force. I feel like you need a pool where scoring can be done around the board and you make the enemy try to chase you or stop you breaking through or sabotaging a piece of terrain in the backfield. Gotta find ways to pull the enemy crew apart. I think utilizing lures within the NB faction with Adze and Doppelganger might not be bad. Those models are pretty solid on their own anyways. Couple those models with some of the combat tricks above. The problem is, this takes set up though and your opponent isnt going to let that happen easily. 

I do feel like Marcus has a lot of weaknesses and cannot compete with the other masters in either faction for sure.I just like him and want to make him work despite  the perception and some rough games lately. It takes time and experience to figure this stuff out. But he's definitely low tier if it takes this much work. :D 

 I had a Jack Daw game tonight on Vassal that was a BRUTAL 1-4 Public Enemies stomping. In hindsight I should've played and hired differently. Marcus loses pretty much all of his advantages VS a Daw crew and should really go completely out of KW or Versatile in hiring. Because giving upgrades to your models draws their crew cards whenever they damage your models, staggered completely shuts down Marcus Mv tricks, bonus action, etc and the Df tech/abilities of the Daw crew are too taxing for Chimera to kill... Marcus just becomes a solo fighter 3ap scheme runner at the point Daw is declared. Seems like a rough deal for the Chimera crew and for anyone walking into that match up without any heads up. Yikes. 

 

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I play a lot of Marcus in NB. I think he's absolutely fantastic as a master and actually has a lot of viability in the faction. People are bias, simply put. Arcanist Marcus is fine, he gets great

Malifaux doesn't really have that sort of chain of ownership of the actions. If it did then you get into arguments like if I accomplice a model can it not walk if it is staggered, because it was only

I choose him nominally when I really want universal unimpeded, which is more of a map concern. And Neverborn Marcus has to let go of double-cat builds and accept that his true minions are the Order In

1 hour ago, Fixxer said:



 I had a Jack Daw game tonight on Vassal that was a BRUTAL 1-4 Public Enemies stomping. In hindsight I should've played and hired differently. Marcus loses pretty much all of his advantages VS a Daw crew and should really go completely out of KW or Versatile in hiring. Because giving upgrades to your models draws their crew cards whenever they damage your models, staggered completely shuts down Marcus Mv tricks, bonus action, etc and the Df tech/abilities of the Daw crew are too taxing for Chimera to kill... Marcus just becomes a solo fighter 3ap scheme runner at the point Daw is declared. Seems like a rough deal for the Chimera crew and for anyone walking into that match up without any heads up. Yikes. 

 

For what its worth you can still get staggered beasts to move with the hunters call trigger, just not with the normal call of the wild effect, or Primal rage.  But it is a tough match up (on paper at least).

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Ty @Fixxer for the feedback; I'm glad to see some of my thoughts are justified and it's not just me sucking with Marcus XD. I also think he is under the curve in NVB, he takes too much effort, thoughts and luck to work. I've not played the ARC version in GG1, but that should be a bit better, Attuned cats are still a thing; but he should have definitely noted the charge plus miner changes there.

I've thought a bit about this before... the main problem isn't beasts, most of them are fine models; in both factions most of them they are played with their other respective masters regularly with good results and in both ARC and NVB some of them are even legit OOK options; so what's left is the master and how difficult is to make other models work with the crew. 

Malifaux is all about adapting to the pool and the other crew; but when the keyword mechanics make that hard and the keyword itself lack tools to adapt well on top of a lot of weaknessess, then that keyword has a big problem. Also just take a look to what other top tier support masters and obey based masters do, and then compare them with the suppor Marcus gives and how limited his obey is (in addition to being both a mediocre fighter and schemer himself); Marcus is definitelly not pulling his weight.

And on top of the keyword excluding non-beast models from all support, making harder to tech, it also has weird countersynergies inside of the keyword: For example, Myranda's aura is huge for keeping beasts alive, it doesn't work with non-chimera beasts; chimera non-beasts also has a harder time getting healed and bossed around; the suit from discading the upgrade is useless when Marcus/Myranda are commanding; Primal Domain is more like Primal flower pot, with how quick this crew is and how little benefit it gets from brawling, beasts get out of range way too easily... it's a trainwreck honestly.

At the end of the day he is still a fun master (and a personal favourite), he is just very niche and not worth it right now from a competitive pow imo, at least in NVB. I hope he gets some love in the next errata, but taking in count both factions... Maybe other day with more time I'll open a "Fixing Chimera" thread to play designer; I'm curious about people's suggestions, this is a tricky one to balance well being both a fast crew and double faction.

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Moving adaptive evolution to an ability on mutation upgrades instead of on chimera models would help. That way upgrades won't get stuck on a model until it dies.

Those that currently have adaptive evolution could gain something along the lines of "shed skin" (to replace the 'lost' ability), where they can discard a mutation upgrade to remove conditions.

Both of these help out Arc Marcus as much as Neverborn though, but if attuned cats are the only thing making arc Marcus 'strong' then that's ok.

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12 hours ago, Fixxer said:

 I had a Jack Daw game tonight on Vassal that was a BRUTAL 1-4 Public Enemies stomping. In hindsight I should've played and hired differently. Marcus loses pretty much all of his advantages VS a Daw crew and should really go completely out of KW or Versatile in hiring. Because giving upgrades to your models draws their crew cards whenever they damage your models, staggered completely shuts down Marcus Mv tricks, bonus action, etc and the Df tech/abilities of the Daw crew are too taxing for Chimera to kill... Marcus just becomes a solo fighter 3ap scheme runner at the point Daw is declared. Seems like a rough deal for the Chimera crew and for anyone walking into that match up without any heads up. Yikes. 

Did you try the plink to death with stampede+blade rush from Order Initiates?

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11 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Did you try the plink to death with stampede+blade rush from Order Initiates?

I did. Stagger is a bitch. :D 

Like its everywhere. Even if I can play around it with a model during an activation it was always backwards. My opponent played it perfect. Like If I activate Cojo or the Initiate and move out of Monty's aura to get rid of staggered I cannot then accomplice into Myranda or Marcus to then Call of the wild them back into Daw with any tempo. He just activates the next model, moves up and staggers them again. 

Pretty ridiculous amount of card draw given too with all the upgrades going around. 

It was Public Enemies, Corner. Assassinate, Take Prisoner, Leave your mark, Runic Binding, and Hidden Martyrs. 

I brought this crew... AND chose the wrong schemes. :D  Took Assassinate and Leave your Mark. You should stay as far away from Daws bubble as you can. 


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In hindsight I see this crew doing much better. Marcus just schemes or adds his weight to a fight to finish something off... Give paul and jacko some good upgrades and make them as annoying as possible.



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2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Stagger doesn't stop that combo.

-2 Movement tends to have an impact, no primal roaring into position, or call of the wild either.  My opponent wasnt going to let that happen, I have a good one of those typically.  

 

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20 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

-2 Movement tends to have an impact, no primal roaring into position, or call of the wild either.  My opponent wasnt going to let that happen, I have a good one of those typically.  

 

-2 move doesn't matter if you're already in base contact with daw, and it doesn't stop the call of the wild charge. Also it becomes only -1 if they've got wings.

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Goodness @santaclaws01, really helpful conjecture. Thank you. 
 

he used a guilty to on your heels next to a building in b2b right in front to block any hope of pulling that off. Should I have invited you to the game so you could’ve seen it beat for beat? He also took regen 2 upgrade on Daw brought stones and other models... Boy, you make it sound so easy. 
 

How can he charge through Call of the Wild while staggered though? 

Thats not how I read... explain. 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

How can he charge through Call of the Wild while staggered though? 

thats not how I read... explain. 

The Trigger says "The target may take a charge action". As such, it is moved by its own charge action, not another friendly model, so Staggered won't stop it.

 

Staggered will make the charge shorter, but blade rush and stampede are 2 separate damage sources if you're close enough.. Chuck in an onslaught on the trigger, and you're looking at 4 damage to Daw as well as 2 cards discarded from the 1 AP. (When Call of the wilded to charge, you can't declare triggers, but its still 2 damage before you make any flips, with a decent chance of 1 more and a card discard.) Regen 2 on Jack is tough.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

How can he charge through Call of the Wild while staggered though? 

About this one, Staggered forbids being moved by effects of other friendly models. But the initiate charging isn't coming from other model, but from himself as it is a full new action he is taking (even tho the "order" is generated thanks to Marcus, the move itself isn't). Marcus cannot make him move without the trigger or with his bonus action because those 2 move effects do come from him.

I think there is some controversy about this one (in the Vassal league they are playing right now the TO ruled the other way for example), but I think the general consensus is the above.

I've not played this particular match up so no idea how good/bad Marcus is versus Daw (but bubble crew with a lot of terrifying, conditions and H2W doesn't looks very promising...). In theory Initiates with IR have high ping damage (however they aren't good versus the Terrifying 12(13) Daw has); but pulling that off requires diving his bubble hard (as you'll want the initiate to go through him), which is quite scary. And as Initiates cannot use SS, I don't think they will last long after attacking and diving that hard so you can accomplice to do enough damage will also leave Marcus in a sticky situation. Maybe timming a back to back activation could do some good damage... but it doesn't seem easy to pull off, specially if the Daw player see it coming and work towards deny it. I wouldn't bet on Marcus on a direct clash between these 2 crews tbh.

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34 minutes ago, Adran said:

The Trigger says "The target may take a charge action". As such, it is moved by its own charge action, not another friendly model, so Staggered won't stop it.

 

Staggered will make the charge shorter, but blade rush and stampede are 2 separate damage sources if you're close enough.. Chuck in an onslaught on the trigger, and you're looking at 4 damage to Daw as well as 2 cards discarded from the 1 AP. (When Call of the wilded to charge, you can't declare triggers, but its still 2 damage before you make any flips, with a decent chance of 1 more and a card discard.) Regen 2 on Jack is tough.

 

 

I understand how BR and Stampeded work, thank you.
If you can pass all the terrifying 13's.  Right, cause you're at -1wp.   Again, easier said than done. Great in theory. 

 

With that, I dont believe you can use call of the wild to charge while staggered. The effect of Marcus action is to make a model move. I would really need to see an faq on your reasoning around that. Seems suspect to me and like you're going around rules. Doesnt feel right. 

Staggered should read, all move effects suffer -2 and this model cannot be placed, would really clear up this obey/command to charge crap that is IMO taking advantage and ticky tack. 



 

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I could show you the M2 FAQ that answered it they way I am telling you now based on the same wording,, but its up to you if you want to count that. It more commonly gets discussed with Obey in the rules forums, but the principle is the same.

The effect of the Marcus action with the trigger is to allow the model to take an action. It is not to move the model. The action that moves the model is the action taken by the Initiate. Its why you can't make the same initiate charge twice in Marcus' activation, because it is that Initiate that is taking the charge action.

It does mean that if Call of the wild said "Target takes a walk action", it would happen even if it was staggered, where as because it says "target may move upto its wk", it won't happen. (Of course if it said that, you couldn't use it to leave engagement, where as with its actual wording you can).

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Adran said:

I could show you the M2 FAQ that answered it they way I am telling you now based on the same wording,, but its up to you if you want to count that. It more commonly gets discussed with Obey in the rules forums, but the principle is the same.

The effect of the Marcus action with the trigger is to allow the model to take an action. It is not to move the model. The action that moves the model is the action taken by the Initiate. Its why you can't make the same initiate charge twice in Marcus' activation, because it is that Initiate that is taking the charge action.

It does mean that if Call of the wild said "Target takes a walk action", it would happen even if it was staggered, where as because it says "target may move upto its wk", it won't happen. (Of course if it said that, you couldn't use it to leave engagement, where as with its actual wording you can).

 

 

But even being able to charge, which is a move, is generated by a friendly effect, the Call of the Wild action.  The effect of that action is to let another model move. Piss poor wording and very unclear. If we have to have a discussion about it and some TO's rule it one way or another and you have to reference and M2E faq (not the same game or intention) then we have a problem. 

with that, I tend to not sit across the table from people and play "work around" with language. We call these people rules lawyers but their more like rules politicians. When it comes to the English language... Marcus action is effecting the Initiate or any other commanded beast to Move.

The effect of the action Marcus took makes another model move. That is as clearly as I can read it.

The Initiate did not allow him/herself the opportunity to take the charge action, its not his/her activation. The effect of Call of the Wild is the only reason the model would move during Marcus activation.  Really needs to be worded better or there needs to be clarification on what an "effect" is if its not going to follow standard protocol in the English language.  

I wouldnt play it this way until Wyrd clarified what they mean by effect. And if its the way you guys describe they need to write the stagger rule to clarify this. The rule is too concise/vague and matters a lot. 

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1 minute ago, Fixxer said:

But even being able to charge, which is a move, is generated by a friendly effect, the Call of the Wild action.  The effect of that action is to let another model move. Piss poor wording and very unclear. If we have to have a discussion about it and some TO's rule it one way or another and you have to reference and M2E faq (not the same game or intention) then we have a problem. 

with that, I tend to not sit across the table from people and play "work around" with language. We call these people rules lawyers but their more like rules politicians. When it comes to the English language... Marcus action is effecting the Initiate or any other commanded beast to Move.

The effect of the action Marcus took makes another model move. That is as clearly as I can read it.

The Initiate did not allow him/herself the opportunity to take the charge action, its not his/her activation. The effect of Call of the Wild is the only reason the model would move during Marcus activation.  Really needs to be worded better or there needs to be clarification on what an "effect" is if its not going to follow standard protocol in the English language.  

I wouldnt play it this way until Wyrd clarified what they mean by effect. And if its the way you guys describe they need to write the stagger rule to clarify this. The rule is too concise/vague and matters a lot. 

Malifaux doesn't really have that sort of chain of ownership of the actions. If it did then you get into arguments like if I accomplice a model can it not walk if it is staggered, because it was only the effect of the accomplice that allowed it to activate then, that allowed it to take actions.

It is logical, and the language is precise. That doesn't mean it is obvious that it works the way I believe, but I think the rules back up my interpretation, where as I think your interpretation is trying to use "the intent" which isn't what is specified. The effect of the action (when modified by the trigger) is not to move another model. You here are changing the written effect of the action, with what you see as the intent of the action. The effect of the action is the Target may declare a charge action. (That is literally what is written).

The Call of the wild action resolves, gives the initiate game permission to take the charge action once this action is finished and then ends.  The initiate is allowed to take a charge action. As part of that charge action it can push. The move was generated by the charge action.  The charge action also allows the model to take a :meleeonce the Charge action is complete.

They could have worded the trigger to allow the target to take a :meleeafter it moved.

 

Staggered says the model can not be moved by the effects of other friendly models. The Effect from Marcus was not a move. The effect was permission for the model to take an action.

 

I understand that you think I'm playing with words to try and make the rules work the way I say they do. I actually think I'm following what is written in the rules. I also believe that it was the intent, based on the large similarity between the wording over the past 3 editions, if they had wanted to change this intent, then they could have between editions. I do accept that at first glance it isn't obvious. But there is a difference between "move target upto its Wk" and "Target takes a walk action", and one of the places that difference shows is when the target is staggered.  

 

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Staggered says the model can not be moved by the effects of other friendly models. The Effect from Marcus was not a move. The effect was permission for the model to take an action.

 

I understand that you think I'm playing with words to try and make the rules work the way I say they do. I actually think I'm following what is written in the rules. I also believe that it was the intent, based on the large similarity between the wording over the past 3 editions, if they had wanted to change this intent, then they could have between editions. I do accept that at first glance it isn't obvious. But there is a difference between "move target upto its Wk" and "Target takes a walk action", and one of the places that difference shows is when the target is staggered.  

Thank you @Adran for taking the time.  very clear and proper explanation.  I've seen it brought up in the past and never so eloquently described. Seeding actions and "intent" is definitely where my brain has a problem accepting that when you catalyze a move with the effect of another friendly that its not subject to the stipulation on staggered. 

Accomplice is a good nod, but could be argued that activating 2 models in a row is an effect on the front of a models card and a benefit in game. If staggered intent is to stop friendlies from moving each other in addition to -2 move, why all the work around actions/abilities that seed other actions?  Why not just write the staggered rule with more clarity for total blanket application of its intent?  I get that the language is logical and precise but we do have idiots like me playing the game too. 

I just think that the Stagger rule could be a bit clearer with effect.



 

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5 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

What do you tend to do with Marcus when you’ve gone fairly heavy on OOK, non-Chimera/Beast models like the hypothetical vs Jack list? 

Jack Daw has a lot of aura mechanics that can be severely debilitating if you go into him. The plan with the sniper style crew is to force certain elements of the crew to stay where I want them to. Lady Ligea's Betrayal aura vs terrifying models is very strong. Monty's suffocation and hanging ropes aura, Jacks -1 wp aura. All of these things add up when you want to charge in and actually be effective in CC. The Snipers and doppel are there to keep the jack player honest and possibly pick off support pieces or even put a few hits on Jack himself now that his terrifying is only 12 rather than 13. Killing his totem is a big deal for actually getting momentum late game if you wanna go in on Jack and try and take him out. 

If you snipe Guilty it puts a lot of pressure on Jack to go get them to get the guilty back. The extra card is nice for Daw though. But taking a model off the board is way worth it if you can. Sniping Hanged is always a good place to start, try to pull some stones out, or whatever. 

The two ruthless models in the crew are well tuned to dealing with Jack's crew also. Carver has onslaught and can really put a number on Jack if he can get in CC. With Jacks bubbling, breath of fire is a threat to fear. Couple Carver with Hoody and thats 2 ruthless models with range/speed to push a bit more board control and threaten Jack himself. 

Marcus would focus on giving upgrades to the Jackalope every turn to get its WP up and make him a road block. He might give Paul Crockett Natural Camo for a bit of ranged DF, especially from the Hanged. Then he is using wings (most likely) to go into the edges of his bubble to try and pick models off. OR Marcus can focus solely on Scheming if the pool welcomes that. Mv7 flight on a master can definitely get you some schemes scored. 

I took a similar crew vs Youko last night because her crew is good VS melee style crews. Qi and Gong have a ton of disguised, so I went with this crew and was able to sneak a 5-4 victory. The first in a while with Marcus actually.  It was the list above minus Carver and Hoody, replaced them with Adze, Vogel, and Sabertooth. Took Sabotage and Catch and Release in a public enemies match. 

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19 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

 If staggered intent is to stop friendlies from moving each other in addition to -2 move, why all the work around actions/abilities that seed other actions?  Why not just write the staggered rule with more clarity for total blanket application of its intent?  I get that the language is logical and precise but we do have idiots like me playing the game too. 

I'm glad the explanation made sense. Honestly I don't think the intent is for staggered to stop all movement, I think it is written as it is to allow some things to get around staggered and others not to. It allows different actions that look similar to have different power levels, and means things like staggered doesn't completely shut down a master like Marcus who does lots of movement effects. 

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19 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

Then he is using wings (most likely) to go into the edges of his bubble to try and pick models off. OR Marcus can focus solely on Scheming if the pool welcomes that. Mv7 flight on a master can definitely get you some schemes scored. 

I understand it's a last ressort strategy, but I try very hard to avoid putting myself in that situation... Marcus without good beasts to support is not very useful; even with an ofensive mutation his 2/3/5 damage track make him not an ideal fighter and the rest of the card have no legal targets; maybe he could pick off a 4-6 SS model (and It depends on the model if we are talking about RES), that's not something to call home about when we are talking about a master.

And even if it's true wings and 3 actions make him useful to scheme (tho it's not something that a model with leap can't do), the other player only has to send 1 model worth a bit more than half his cost with some good staying power to deny his scheming entirely; he has no ways to disengage other than killing the model he is engaging (at which he isn't that good either) and if he takes the disengage action he can't interact.

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As a curve ball, has anyone considered Heyreddin OOK and a few hounds?

I originally thought life from blood was any size 1 nephilim, but actually it's only terror tots, which drastically reduces how useful he could be.

Anyway, use call of wild to gelp get multiple hounds into combat. Use hayreddin for extra damage and healing, and Paul for even more attacks with the pack bonus.

And then hayreddin can turn their target into a terror tot, offsetting the likely death of one or more hounds.

Bit niche, and probably more fun than competitive, but I've got hounds already, and hayreddin is boxed with BBS's which seem very useful for most of neverborn.

Might work well against crews like daw who punish Marcus's normal play style.

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I thought about a crew with 4 hounds, but back when Nekima had her "Enraged by Insolence" instead this new "I don't care anymore" ability after the FAQ. The idea was punish enemy players that killed them with extra attacks from Nekima; in that list Vogel was a good pick, double Primal Roar to move the dogos the first turn and then some Shielded+Healing for Nekima. And neither was that a tournament tier list.

Now that's not an option I really don't see a niche for them in most games. Marcus will have to expend cards and actions to put mutations on them, then even more actions comanding them... And all that support for a model that can be taken out in 1 attack in a crew with no use for corpses? Also Marcus is too busy commanding 6 to 10 SS beasts to be able to afford supporting those directly and using a master AP to make a dog attack or move... not the best way to expend resources imo.

In a list with Vogel with double Primal Roar, they will move 6'' (or even 7'' with a mutation) for free the first turn, which is nice, they can interact and maybe with Armor or Camo plus Vogel Shielded they could hope to do something (those mutations and buffs are usually reserved for more expensive models tho) so on paper they don't seem that bad. However when we have Wicked dolls, maybe a bit slower and with less damage but stealthy without a mutation and with creep along I don't see the dogos as good options for schemes; mabye for a combat role, but as 3SS models that role is hard for them (and also Marcus isn't the best option when you are looking to clash with another crew imo). Also as non-chimeras Myranda's aura doesn't work with them...

For a crew around that idea with Hayreddin... that might work, but I don't think it'd be very competitive; but as a list for fun in a casual game it could be an interesting concept. As said above doggos would need a defensive mutation to hope to survive a bit in the fray and they would probably die before Hayreddin's aura could do something for them (unless there is a lot of area damage in the other crew, that's the only case where that aura would help them) and even with the pack bonus they are not worth a master AP when Marcus have 2/4/6 or 3/4/5 damage tracks on other beasts. The good part is Hayreddin may use BBP to do some good ping damage and maybe get a Tot to eat the corpses of the dogos (that's a long shot tho), and with Hayreddin you may include a BBS to let doggos reach the good part of their damage track (plus get a Mature later) and Annoying could be... annoying; however at this point you don't have that many SS left to add Myranda and good beasts for Marcus, specially when Vasilisa is another good pick to be able to consume corpses at enough speed to be worth it with the Tots that might be good in that list.

Another for fun idea would be Cojo tossing them against an enemy model to damage them and trigger Black blood, but that's an expensive projectile XD.

I've also look for a role for them in my lists, but with little success. If you find a good use for them, let me know!

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  • 3 months later...

I'm highly interested in Marcus since last week and was wondering if it is possible to create a crew with lots of carddraw through abilities, triggers and ancient pact.

 

You may draw a card via primal domain, sourge trigger on marcus and ferdinand vogel, file papers on ferdinand vogel, bloody fate or forage on paul crockett and 2 times via ancient pact. even if you don't entirely commit your gaming to carddraw thats 4+ cards each turn. Do you think it could actualy work? 

 

the other strength I see is AP-generation via triggers. marcus has pouncing strike and quick reflexes on his chimerancy. Jackalope has puncing strike, Adze has sudden strike on his free-action, wotw have coordinated attack, the beast within has pouncing strike, paul crocket has scent of blood and coordinated attack, cerberus have onslaught, bandersnach can even get a build in onslaught via upgrade... 

 

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