Marcus?!?

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, extremor said:

I'm highly interested in Marcus since last week and was wondering if it is possible to create a crew with lots of carddraw through abilities, triggers and ancient pact.

 

You may draw a card via primal domain, sourge trigger on marcus and ferdinand vogel, file papers on ferdinand vogel, bloody fate or forage on paul crockett and 2 times via ancient pact. even if you don't entirely commit your gaming to carddraw thats 4+ cards each turn. Do you think it could actualy work? 

Is it possible? Yes it is. Would it work? Depend on what you are trying to achieve.

Marcus in NVB is very fun, but also niche and bellow the curve. You can make it work if you know how to play him and when to pick him, but a few extra cards won't overcome his weaknessess; he can only work in pools that favor heavy mobility. Also some of those promote a kind of bubble playstile that can actually be counterproductive with Marcus in NVB.

He has some damage, specially with an stacked Cojo; but any decent combat crew (Misaki, VS, Dreamer...) will stomp him; plus he has a lot of bad match ups and some tech pick just stop his agression in his tracks; picking him to clash is a gamble, and not a good one; specially when this faction has a lot of good crews good at killing.

1 hour ago, extremor said:

the other strength I see is AP-generation via triggers. marcus has pouncing strike and quick reflexes on his chimerancy. Jackalope has puncing strike, Adze has sudden strike on his free-action, wotw have coordinated attack, the beast within has pouncing strike, paul crocket has scent of blood and coordinated attack, cerberus have onslaught, bandersnach can even get a build in onslaught via upgrade...

Notice most of those cannot be stoned and as you'll discover, he is VERY card and SS hungry so cards and SS to cheat those kind of things are a luxury. Also some of those like Marcus or the Jackalope deal low damage so it's not going to make a huge difference (but it might be worth it to spread Adversary tho). Paul is quite good, but he has its own problems like not being able to get healing without including Serena. Bandersnatch with onslaught is good, but very glassy; she can kill some overextended runner or support, but don't expect her to carry the crew.

I don't want to discourage you, go ahead and play him; I do and he is super fun and one of my favourite masters. But mind his crew is misleading, his models and upgrades screams "ruthless hunter" but his playstile is closer to Colette/Nelly than to Nekima, at least in this faction; in ARC he can be more agressive. To win with him in NVB you need to abuse his mobility, the condition play and mobility shenanigans that NVB beast has and also be open to some shenanigans with Versatile/OOK models.

[extremor]

hello again,

I bought the Marcus Core Box and the Primal Roar Box on black Friday, so it seems I couldn't resist 😄

I testet the corebox against Misaki core yesterday and was quite pleased about the Order Initiates. What do you think about em?

In the mentioned game I had a promising situation: 

1. OI charged with wings and Claws attached, kicked the wings for  and Puncture, then droped the claws for armor.

2. OI2 charged the same model (adversary) with wings and horns, kicked the wings for  and onslaught, then droped the horns for armor.

3. OI3 did the same as OI2 but instead of armor he got camouflage. After some enemy attacks myranda healed em and next turn marcus gave em another upgrade so the OI did the same thing..... and then they were also using stampede...

And I was like: Oh they seem to be quite nice with all the upgrade swapping...changing offensive upgrades to defensive ones at the end of activation via . what do you think about OI?

[ragnarok14]

Do you need to still have an upgrade on the model to use the bonus action?

[Adran]

37 minutes ago, ragnarok14 said:

Do you need to still have an upgrade on the model to use the bonus action?

No, the requirements are to discard an upgrade if able. So if you have one or more upgrades you have to discard one, but if you don't have any, then you aren't able to discard one, but you can still do the action because you have still meet the requirements of discarding an upgrade if able. 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, extremor said:

what do you think about OI?

OI for 6SS are playable and that mutation swaping is a very good way to use them so you are in the good path. I've had decent result with them in low SS games like HH, but I don't tend to use them in 50SS games. 

They are cost efficient combat models because they are one of the few models where ditching mutations is worth it and that  (which gives card draw near of Marcus) really help. However even with 1 defensive mutation they are not hard to kill, other beast are better for scoring or are harder to kill and as I don't pick Marcus to brawl nor like to bubble with him, I've not much experience with them. They are good models at what they do, but that doesn't fit how I play this master. But I know other players like them more than me tho, so try them out!.

As an extra piece of advice, TT isn't a good match up for Marcus. Defensively they have all the tools to make Marcus unable to deal any damage (lot of Extended Reach and some of it in good beaters, take the hit, some Disguised and ; they also got decent anti focused tech that can use to debuff Cojo; but at least Cojo's Wp of 7 make that a bit harder), plus also a ways to minimice the defense of his upgrades and a very efficient Focused engine with ways to get multiple  to damage; I'd pick another master versus that faction.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 11/22/2020 at 6:31 AM, Ogid said:

and also be open to some shenanigans with Versatile/OOK models.

I was just thinking about this.

On paper, it seems to me like too many beasts is a bad thing? After 2-3 beasts, you just end up with everything competing for upgrades, I assume.

Do you find yourself taking heaps of versatiles & OOKs?

[Mycellanious]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I was just thinking about this.

On paper, it seems to me like too many beasts is a bad thing? After 2-3 beasts, you just end up with everything competing for upgrades, I assume.

Do you find yourself taking heaps of versatiles & OOKs?

I've had similar thoughts and that can definitely be a tactic to take, but I find the power of a Chimera keyword is in the casual way they disregard Engagement, or are able to react to game changes instantly. Since you cant move Versatile model models, I can feel a bit frustrated with them. For me, you need to be very aware of what your producers and consumers are in a Chimera crew. Your true Beasts often take cards from your hand, while the Living models draw you cards. So I like taking Initiates to generate resources for me and get a solid Activation while supporting my other models and remaining flexible

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

For me, you need to be very aware of what your producers and consumers are in a Chimera crew. Your true Beasts often take cards from your hand, while the Living models draw you cards. So I like taking Initiates to generate resources for me and get a solid Activation while supporting my other models and remaining flexible

That makes sense! Reva crews need to be aware of corpse production/consumption, Pandora crews need to be aware of mobility production/consumption, etc.

[extremor]

So is Ferdinand Vogel best of both worlds? He seems to be independent from Marcus‘ Mutation shenanigans, right?

@Mycellaniousdo you use ancient pact a lot?

 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, extremor said:

So is Ferdinand Vogel best of both worlds? He seems to be independent from Marcus‘ Mutation shenanigans, right?

@Mycellaniousdo you use ancient pact a lot?

 

Considering I am an Arcanist Player, no. I probably would in Neverborn tho

Oh! And Vogel is definitely a Drain. His Shapechange takes a card, so on turns you want to use that (which is often) he drains cards. That said, in niche circumstances he is a producer, since as Vogel is can draw cards from File Papers and a Surge trigger (very unreliable). That said I put Vogel in most of my lists and think he's awesome (but I am biased he's probably my favorite model in the game). He brings a LOT of unique things to the Keyword. Off the top of my head:

1. Shielded (impassioned defense is such a great ability)

2. The ability to heal non-beasts (including those versatiles!)

3. Ranged attack (Paul has range too, but Vogel's is non-projectile and a better stat)

4. Targets Willpower

5. Is one of the 5 models in Arcanists with access to Stunned lol

6. The ability to move MARCUS and get him out of engagements

7. A 2" engagement range

[Ogid]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:04 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I was just thinking about this.

On paper, it seems to me like too many beasts is a bad thing? After 2-3 beasts, you just end up with everything competing for upgrades, I assume.

Do you find yourself taking heaps of versatiles & OOKs?

Marcus needs beasts, he is useless without them; but there isn’t that much competition tho, most upgrades are handed out during turn 1 and 2. I’ve found that expending a lot of AP and cards beyond turn 1 handling mutations take the atention away from scoring and it’s also risky because those models will die and expending a lot of AP buffing one model make that extra painful. The only reason for using AP to attach upgrades is a model needing healing.

Picking 5 chimera/beasts so you can handle six upgrades in turn 1 and two in turn 2 is a good recipe; and also different beast go well with different mutations, so it’s about knowing it and picking models that don’t compete for the same upgrades. I’ve tried attaching 4 upgrades in turn 1 and 4 in turn 2, but expending 2 AP handling 2 upgrades in turn 2 make for a very weak turn 2 and the other player punish that; start being "online" in turn 3 is a very bad plan with him.

I don’t tend to rely a lot on versátiles/OOK; I try to pick Marcus in pools where I know he will do fine because he is bad at supporting other models; but versus a bad match up I’d go OOK if needed. WW and sometimes Serena are the 2 models that I find myself taking. There could be cool things to do like throwing Candy/Hinamatsu with Cojo, but nothing that other masters couldn’t with Vasilisa/Effigy, the Rider, a Mature or a Rougarou so the reason to pick Marcus is to use his beasts. If you find yourself needing to build a list relying on a lot of Versatiles/OOK after declaring Marcus, it means you probably screw up.

 

@extremor I agree with everything Mycellanious said from the pow of ARC Marcus, but mind NVB Marcus is way weaker in combat and atrittion game, getting more cards is mainly to improve your combat and NVB Marcus shouldn't be looking for trouble; so I advise against that kind of build in this faction. However that's something you have to probably experiment for yourself, so try it out!

About Ferdinand, he definitely take more cards than he generates; he is a good model but I don't usually have the cards needed to make him work between the shapeshifting, Intimidating Authority and cheating his triggers. However he likes upgrades, depending on the role you want him to fulfill Wings, Camo or Serrated works well on him.

[Ogid]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:11 PM, Mycellanious said:

Since you cant move Versatile model models, I can feel a bit frustrated with them.

I think Marcus need a few tweaks to stop being underpowered and that's definitelly one of them; his keyword can't adapt to all situation and the Master deny tech picks for how badly they integrates in the crew.

My top 3 needed changes for Marcus would be:

• Chimera (and beasts?) models in his crew can take upgrades from both factions. Without this either ARC is OP or NVB is UP, and it would give him something very unique in both factions.
• Change his call of the wild for an action that can move non-beast and let the beast charge or attack WITHOUT IT BEING A TRIGGER. The master being totally shut down by Stunned or any anti charge tech is too harsh and this would let more models than Cojo being useful for combat near of Marcus.
• The Jackalope stops being a totem, Marcus' cost is reduced to 12 or 13 (he is quite bad he on his own, and this will also promote some double master play with masters with beast in their keywords) and he gets 8-10SS extra to expend on beasts instead of getting a totem.

Other 2 needed changes but not that high priority

• Give Marcus a Purification trigger somewhere, the best place would be in the action that replaces his Call of the Wild.
• Myranda aura works on Chimera AND beasts and her bestial form upgrade gives her Attuned.

And 1 nerf:

• Sabertooth loses Onslaught for another mask trigger (Pouncing strike, Shove aside...). This model scales too well with SS cache to the point of making most other models redundant.

[extremor]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

and also different beast go well with different mutations, so it’s about knowing it and picking models that don’t compete for the same upgrades

Since my exp with Marcus is very limited I can‘t see these combinations yet. But I will Experiment on them 🤗

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

Marcus shouldn't be looking for trouble

But why do I see Cojo and Myranda in every list around (Even NVB Marcus) and people talking about Cerberus min damage n Stuff. If playing Marcus like Colette is the way to go, what do I need Cojo for? Or Cerberus? 

[MrPieChee]

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

• Chimera (and beasts?) models in his crew can take upgrades from both factions. Without this either ARC is OP or NVB is UP, and it would give him something very unique in both factions.

I can't see this ever happening, and tbh, I can't see why anyone would want it. If Marcus only works with attuned on his enforcers, then add a mutation that gives attuned.

I had a new idea for Marcus changes - currently he only works with high cost beasts because that's the most efficient way to attach mutations. Well, how about changing his chimerancy action to be based on the cost of the target model instead of the cost of mutations, and allow it to include any number of models in range. Then, turn one you could pulse out mutations to loads of cheap models, or target specific more expensive models, opening up other list possibilities...

Cost might need to be 4+cost of beasts, or could be cost of beasts + mutations?

 

Should this wish listing go in a different thread, or in one of the many Marcus improvement threads?

 

I'm still a big fan of moving adaptive evolution to the mutations upgrades. The space this opens up on cards already with adaptive evolution could then be used to add "shed skin" where a mutation can be discarded to remove any number of conditions or other upgrades.

 

Tbh, the best fix might be "if Marcus is the leader, attach any number of mutations upgrades to any beast or chimera models after deployment but before the first activation" (or similar wording). It would need to go on an upgrade card, since Marcus's card is already jam full with text, but that plays well into wyrds plan of doing as few card changes during an edition as possible. That also opens the option to have a card that lets a beast take a pre game move for free... (Since fast beasts is/was meant to be the theme for Marcus).

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, extremor said:

Since my exp with Marcus is very limited I can‘t see these combinations yet. But I will Experiment on them 🤗

Feel free to ask! Wrapping your head around the mutations is a bit hard at first, but it'll become second nature soon. I'll try to help you out:

In general in this faction these are my favourites:

• Cojo: Horns + Something defensive (usually wings)
• Bandersnatch: Armor + Horns (it can work with only 1 of these)
• Jackalope: Armor and/or Serrated
• Rattler: Armor (Serrated also decent)
• Scorpious: Armor or Serrated; but any other one goes also well
• Cerberus: Wings + Camo.
• Adze/Wisps: Camo
• Grootslang: Wings, Armor or Serrated
• Bear: Wings, Horns or Serrated... but anything works in this one tbh.
• Rougarou: Horns + any of the 3 defensive (you can skip Horns if you only want him for utility not damage)
• Vogel: Camo or Wings
• Beast Within: Wings, Armor or Serrated; Camo is decent when switching between forms each turn and Horns is also decent but my least favourite.
• Initiates: 2 Ofensive or Horns+Defensive into 1 defensive (Armor if engaged!) after the combo.
• Paul: Camo or Wings but this can work without one if the other player cannot reach him easily.

In general:

• Armor goes well in models that like to stay near of the other model (Rattler for constriction, Jackalope for annoyance or to redirect damage and Bander because the model with the upgrade can always attack her) or models that are going to stay in the thick of the battle.
• Wings goes well in ranged models, models with pushes in their attacks (so they can attack and end outside of enagaement range) and in mele range 2 models when fighting mele range 1 models so they can always jump into engagement range to control them. This also help with mobility.
• Camo good in ranged models, models that like to keep their distance (this include all those 3/4SS beasts) and mele model with Pushes (same reasoning than above). It combines very well with the Shimmering Lights aura of Adze/Wisps.
• Horns: Good in something with good moderate and severe damage track (2/4/6) and the one model with built in mask.
• Serrated: Good in sturdy models that can go in first to give Adversary and can survive reasonably well without other defensive mutations, models with Pouncing Strike or that can attack outside of their turn (Marcus, Myranda, Jacakalope, Grootslang, Rattler, The Beast and The Scorpious). Adze has built in rams, but it's too fragile to make good use of it.

You can double mutation for empowering one role, to put it into something easy to understand:

• Duelist/1v1 annoyance (Armor + Camo): Go 1v1 and reduce the interferences of other models; good for things like the Rattler or the Jackalope.
• Tank/Area annoyance (Armor + Wings): Usually in a range 2 models that will try to engage as many models as possible. Groostslang is a good model for this for example.
• Roge/Alpha strike: (Wing + Camo) Nimble models that doesn't like to be attacked: Saber, Adze. After getting Horns this pair will be very good on Rougarou or Cojo, but this is also risky because losing that many upgrades at once hurts.
• Berserker (Horns + Serrated): Good for damage but very risky, could work on the most sturdy models (The beast, Bear), Initiates or the Bandersnatch in some circunstances (usually needing WW to set up for her). Not my favourite combination.

4 hours ago, extremor said:

But why do I see Cojo and Myranda in every list around (Even NVB Marcus) and people talking about Cerberus min damage n Stuff. If playing Marcus like Colette is the way to go, what do I need Cojo for? Or Cerberus? 

Speaking from experience, it's important to separate ARC and NVB Marcus:

In ARC SS cache make Cerberus a VERY different animal, that model has min damage 3, onslaught and Jump; that means it is all set up from the offensive point of view. Giving him Wings, Camo make him hard to reach, but a few good focused hits and he is gone. Just like that he can deal reasonably consistent 6 damage, it could reach higher but Onslaught needs either a card from the hand or ditching one of the mutations it needs badly to survive.

But enters SS cache, now he has also damage reduction so killing him is way harder and can buy the Onslaught trigger, that can rack up to a staggering 12-15 damage per turn. This combination is even better because SS cache gives itto the duel when using an SS (which makes the card hungry Marcus not that card hungry and make it able to bypass things like Manipulative, SC or Distracted) and it also generates SS when it kills (and miners can also generate more SS). And on top of this is a model with good movement and Leap, so it's a good schemer on top of a killy model.

But leaving the cat aside, in general SS cache gives this crew the equivalent of Henchmans; which is great to make those models reliable and also make harder for the enemy to kill them, which also makes the mutations on them even more effective. NVB has some damage combinations, but far away to be as good and reliable as the above or being able to put them on the equivalent on henchmans.

With that in mind you can see why brawling with NVB Marcus isn't my favourite option. This faction lacks the tools for it.

What his faction has is a lot of mobility in the beasts, pushes and condition play; so NVB Marcus needs to play those strenghts, move fast around the board, debuff and engage enemies to slow them down while you score, push enemies away from markers to score/deny scoring (Rougarous/Cojo/WW) and win the game that way (that's why I said it feels more like Colette).

You can definitely build a combat Marcus, and it'll work sometimes unless you are facing the good combat crews; but I haven't find it a consistent way to win with him. It's very glassy and can be hard countered with too many things; as long as your adversary knows Marcus a bit and how to punish him, those builds folds like paper in my experience.

 

Cojo is an important beast because it's the only beast able to be commanded to charge more than once per turn, has a lot of damage potential with the Focused stacking (plus Horns and Wings) and utility. It has and ability to remove scheme markers, can also throw other models in position/displace enemies. Even if damage shouldn't be the main focus with Marcus, having 1 model able to put a good amount of damage to enemies that carelessly close the gap is important to make the other player think a bit before engaging, that makes him lose time and you can also make some areas dangerous to avoid him just walking over your crew and kill whatever he wants. An stacked Cojo is more about threat than alpha strike because as you need both Marcus and him, you need the enemy to come to you to deal enough damage (you could use Lures or WW for this; but again, the trouble will come to you on its own, no need to rush it)

 

Myranda is a key support, she gives healing to keep your model count and mutations on the table as long as possible, but has also call of the wild + Accomplice that is the core of Marcus play. She can take a model make it walk (or double walk if she is ahead) and then Accomplice into that model to bypass dangerous areas controlled by your adversary. Plus the shapeshifting gives her a lot of utility (Lure in Adze form, some damage and a push in Rougarou form, Slow in Grootslang form...), but mind that makes her vulnerable; stack defensive mutations on her (minimum of 2) if you want to use her for this and probably include Serena to handle the healing.

 

Note this is only my experience, so feel free to experiment yourself other builds and combinations. I'm not done yet experimenting with him myself!

[Ogid]

On 12/1/2020 at 10:12 AM, MrPieChee said:

I can't see this ever happening, and tbh, I can't see why anyone would want it. If Marcus only works with attuned on his enforcers, then add a mutation that gives attuned.

Unique stuff in masters is good and gives it niches; I choosed that option because it gives the upgrade to models that can usually attach it so the range for unintended stuff is lowered. The upgrades in this dual faction master are a big deal  of how the crew works; so eliminating that would be good to be able to balance both sides without neglecting one or making the other one OP.

I also thought about the attuned in a mutation upgrade, but I'm not sure if that'd work that well to give both sides of the crew a simmilar starting point to balance. A master with so much mobility as this one is hard to balance well because it can go from underpowered to opressive real fast; adding to that the huge difference the upgrades make doesn't leave that many choices to try to leave both sides in a simmilar spot.

What I also like is that could give it more ways to differentiate from other strong masters dominating his good pools like Colette or Zoraida; being able to get +2 initiative in ARC for some strategy for example.

But you are probably right, I still have hope this get fixed; but being realist this is probably going to be a neglected keyword the rest of ME3.

On 12/1/2020 at 10:12 AM, MrPieChee said:

I had a new idea for Marcus changes - currently he only works with high cost beasts because that's the most efficient way to attach mutations. Well, how about changing his chimerancy action to be based on the cost of the target model instead of the cost of mutations, and allow it to include any number of models in range. Then, turn one you could pulse out mutations to loads of cheap models, or target specific more expensive models, opening up other list possibilities...

Cost might need to be 4+cost of beasts, or could be cost of beasts + mutations?

 

Should this wish listing go in a different thread, or in one of the many Marcus improvement threads?

 

I'm still a big fan of moving adaptive evolution to the mutations upgrades. The space this opens up on cards already with adaptive evolution could then be used to add "shed skin" where a mutation can be discarded to remove any number of conditions or other upgrades.

 

Tbh, the best fix might be "if Marcus is the leader, attach any number of mutations upgrades to any beast or chimera models after deployment but before the first activation" (or similar wording). It would need to go on an upgrade card, since Marcus's card is already jam full with text, but that plays well into wyrds plan of doing as few card changes during an edition as possible. That also opens the option to have a card that lets a beast take a pre game move for free... (Since fast beasts is/was meant to be the theme for Marcus).

I like some of those suggestions; I've not included those because I think the above are more needed (the totem one for example is to give it more possible builds as Cojo+Myranda are usually an stapples, the SS for other models is limited and with how limited he is, he could really use a few extra SS more in the totem), but I see the reasoning behind yours:

Making easier to integrate the low costs beast would be good because sometimes the are left outside of the crew for not being worth it a master AP to attach the upgrade, I've been there. As long as this doesn't make the more expensive models needing to reach summoning levels TN to attach mutations it'd be fine; or just give the swift action for free if it targets models with 6SS costs or lower for example.

Adaptive evolution on some upgrades would be nice too, but this would make the crew even more vulnerable to obeys (so... maybe also changing a bit the wording for only friendly controled?). Losing a mutation in a beast is as bad or worse that gaining a Flicker token with Asami's Onis, and yet Marcus is fully exposed to this. It's true you can always pick around it with models without that ability, but it's yet another area where this master got the short stick.

 

But you are right, we could let this kind of talk for the other threads and keep this just for NVB Marcus crew suggestions/feedback... I think this one was the last one used for that:

Marcus Dreams - The Arcanists - Wyrd Forums (themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com)

[extremor]

Hello again,

i had my first 2 games yesterday playing Marcus. My List in both matches was: 

Marcus, Jack, Cojo, Myranda, Cerberus, 3xOrder initiates --> I knew this list isnt ideal, but these are my painted models... and I wanted to test these.

 

First was vs. Ophelia: I mostly hid behind terrain and waited for my chance to strike. 

Second was vs. Kaeris: I danced around the board, scored and waited for my chance to strike. 

My main-problems were: 

1. I was totally lacking movement shenanigans to move enemy models and ranged attacks (or something similar to put the emeny under pressure).

2. to keep my models alive after a guerilla-strike (Cojo/Cerberus/OI)

3. what do I do with Marcus after I attached upgrades (turn 1 or 2)? How do I use the Master-AP efficiently?

4. to move Myranda to places where she is needed atm (since she is no beast and cannot be moved my call of the wild). i am stuck between "she is super important and stample" and "She puts pressure on my own play so better leave her home next time"

5.  how do I put my opponent under pressure? Ive found it easy to score myself, but my enemy also was easily able to do his thing…it was mostly like i killed an opponents Model  he killed 1 of mine  i killed he Killed... ...

 

[Ogid]

I hope you are enjoying the crew so far!

About your questions:

1 The best tools for this are either Lures (Wisps or Adze) or WW stonning "Into the Dream Web" (which goes well into The Scorpious for the Neurotoxin aura for a real threat); lots of ranged attacks aren't a Marcus (or in general a NVB) thing so that's not very viable unless you go for a very unortodox build (which It's probably 100% better with Lucius)

2 Marcus' models even with mutations are squishy; they have the potential to hit hard if you have luck or the right cards but they can't take retaliation. Positioning should be his main defense, also try to pick the right models and defensive mutations for the match and pick him in the right pools; he will have a very rought match if the pool isn't good for him.

3 Keep him near of Cojo as that's the model that he can use to deal damage most efficiently (and use Wisps/dolls to give Cojo a decent stack of Focused the first turn); use him to move a model and then accomplice into it for extra attacks or to bypass dangerous areas, put serrated on him and spread Adversary, engage him with enemy models to keep them away from your squishy beasts...

4 Myranda is usually better near of the center of the board, with Marcus and Cojo. To move her you have some tricks, Rougarou can push her, Cojo can also push her, Wisps/Adze can lure... it's a bit harder but she supports very well the crew, it's worth the hassle. And she can also use the call of the wild into accomplice.

5 Uff, very general question... First use your mobility to score as fast as possible, and then use your models to delay the enemy as hard as possible. NVB beasts are great for this, Grootslang can go score and then lair back to defend, the spiders are super fast and can be one turn scoring and the next defending, Wisps have 2'' engagement range and an annoying aura to defend markers... NVB Marcus (for me) is about using all those tricks.

Also include Serena or EM (on rabbit) if you are against conditions (specially stunned); those may shut him down quite well.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 12/7/2020 at 12:59 AM, extremor said:

5.  how do I put my opponent under pressure? Ive found it easy to score myself, but my enemy also was easily able to do his thing…it was mostly like i killed an opponents Model  he killed 1 of mine  i killed he Killed... ...

 

One general point I find doing this with Molly (who I think is very similar).

In GG0, I would score the points very fast and efficiently, and then slam my crew into theirs to slow them down. Even if they would ultimately win a ten turn game, I was happy to force them to grind through my crew once I got an advantage.

If you can get even a one point lead (and a route to 1-for-1ing your opponent on points after that), you snowball to victory.

I suspect Marcus is very efficient, and can probably score points with a relatively small part of his crew after some initial investment. So consider using a large part of your crew to stop the enemy.

I typically have my (Molly) crew assigned thusly:

• One part primarily schemes (such as Philip)
• One part is primarily defense (such as Molly + some assistance)
• One part swaps according to the flow of battle (Archie + Crooligans).

There may be a similar strategy you can do with Marcus.

EDIT: I guess a key point here is when you have a highly mobile crew like these, you can afford to swap models between tasks and respond to the flow of battle (as long as you put some effort in to make them ready to swap). Compared to models like Grave Golem, Toshiro, Teddy, Woe crew, etc, which have to commit to a particular plan and can't deviate from it easily. Abuse the heck out of this so you only have exactly enough models to do the job as needed in one spot, don't waste having a bunch of models in an area where they don't need to be. If 2 models can score the points, send everyone else to mess up the enemy.

[extremor]

21 hours ago, Ogid said:

1 The best tools for this are either Lures (Wisps or Adze) or WW stonning "Into the Dream Web" (which goes well into The Scorpious for the Neurotoxin aura for a real threat);

I already bought the Adze & Wisps box and WIP-painting em... gonna try them next week. 

 

21 hours ago, Ogid said:

3 Keep him near of Cojo as that's the model that he can use to deal damage most efficiently (and use Wisps/dolls to give Cojo a decent stack of Focused the first turn); use him to move a model and then accomplice into it for extra attacks or to bypass dangerous areas, put serrated on him and spread Adversary, engage him with enemy models to keep them away from your squishy beasts...

Will try. THX that gave me some ideas. I'm a little sad though the Primal Domain and the Call of the Wild range is only 6" (Lucius does it better)!

 

21 hours ago, Ogid said:

4 Myranda is usually better near of the center of the board, with Marcus and Cojo. To move her you have some tricks, Rougarou can push her, Cojo can also push her, Wisps/Adze can lure... it's a bit harder but she supports very well the crew, it's worth the hassle. And she can also use the call of the wild into accomplice.

She is the model I struggle about the most. But I think I will have to get Groteslang and 1-2 Rougarou to make her work. So far I only had Bandersnatch (and Adze from now on). 

 

21 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I guess a key point here is when you have a highly mobile crew like these, you can afford to swap models between tasks and respond to the flow of battle (as long as you put some effort in to make them ready to swap). Compared to models like Grave Golem, Toshiro, Teddy, Woe crew, etc, which have to commit to a particular plan and can't deviate from it easily. Abuse the heck out of this so you only have exactly enough models to do the job as needed in one spot, don't waste having a bunch of models in an area where they don't need to be. If 2 models can score the points, send everyone else to mess up the enemy.

Thats good advice. I'm still learning which elements can be used as tarpits the best and when to use which upgrade efficiently... but yes that kind of style seems to be nvb-marcus' thing. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

For those using Bandersnatch, are you also taking Widow Weaver?

Widow Weaver can set up webs for Bandersnatch to jump through, so I pretty much always recommend they be taken as a pair in other crews (so I assume the same applies here).

The combo of:

• Widow weaver jumps to a web, charges and attacks someone, throws them into a web (or just drops one near them).
• Bandernsatch activates teleport to the web, charges and takes 4 attacks (due to onslaught)

Seems pretty potent! It creates a whole danger zone around the web markers that people have to be conscious of. And if they don't come near the web markers, they can usually score 2-4 points on their own.

[Ogid]

Glad to help!

16 hours ago, extremor said:

I already bought the Adze & Wisps box and WIP-painting em... gonna try them next week. 

Those are going to help a lot. An small trick with Wisps the first turn; during this one Marcus will usually hands out 6 mutations and use the bonus to move the models around him forward (3-4''); plan the first turn so Cojo after this push starts his turn surrounded by 3-4 scheme markers (for 4 you'll need something like 2 Wisps or 1 Wisps and 1 Doll for example; using the doll needs also that Myranda or other model walk first in the right direction). This won't happen by chance so I recommend you to put your models in a table and practice it a few times.

When you get the chance, get also Rougarous and The Grootslang; those will also put a lot of work in that crew.

An small shoutout for the Rougarou; expensive but very good model. They are fast, durable and has some mobility tricks that is all you need with Marcus. The damage potential is good but unreliable, Marcus lack the resource generation to make good use of it and even with defensive Mutations charging head on into the best enemy beaters will result on them being killed so try not to use them like this. I had some fun with double Rougarou agro lists when I started to play Marcus, but I moved away from that because it's a big gamble.

The push in the mele attack is also very good; you can push models away from objetives using a mele attack (Symbols for example) and then just get them without needing to kill the defender (if you can't do this with their 2 actions, use Myranda or Marcus to position him or make him charge). And a cool trick, pushing models near of Wisp/Adze will give them Distracted, which again goes well to make the other player inefficient.

The cat is more efficient moving and dropping scheme markers having also Jump, and the damage is a bit better; but it's glassier (so it can be killed earlier than the Rougarou) and the only way it has to remove defenders is killing them; something NVB Marcus cannot guarantee. If you pick him over a Rougarou, be sure to have a solid plan in mind.

16 hours ago, extremor said:

Will try. THX that gave me some ideas. I'm a little sad though the Primal Domain and the Call of the Wild range is only 6" (Lucius does it better)!

Primal domain works quite different in the table as it appears when reading the card for the first time; 6'' is nothing with the mobility of that crew and stuffing all your models around him to benefice from that aura doesn't fit his playstile, asume you will get 1-2 cards from that in most turns; but don't go out of your way to try to get more card draw... they should rename that ability "Primal backyard" or "Primal Flower Pot" XD

Call of the wild being only 6 make playing him harder than other obey-based masters; specially as you'll want your beasts to end within 6'' of him to activate Accomplice most of the time; you'll get used to. Asume in most turns you'll expend 1 action with him walking or charging just to get in range (and mind you can use the bonus action to position models to be in range after he moves/charges).

The bonus is also important when attacking with Cojo, an engaged Cojo can't charge so use it to disengage without wasting normal actions (in case one of your attacks failed, so he couldn't push the other model out of engagement range or the other player engaged him with something during the enemy activations and he starts Marcus' activation already engaged).

And about keeping Cojo alive that you asked before, healing helps. You can heal him 2 by putting a mutation on him with Marcus with the Mend trigger (this may cost you a SS tho); then move/attack with him. Accomplice into Cojo and attack 2 more times (if you are lucky you may get another ram trigger in the first attack), but if you need extra healing you may discard the Horns upgrade during the last attack to buy the ram trigger for another 2 healing. Or Accomplice instead into Myranda for 2 more heals if he is real hurt. Doing this you may heal Cojo 4-5 Wds reasonably consistently (even 8 if Myranda is quite close); you can't face tank everything and there are nasty alpha strikes and back to back activatiions out of there that can take him out without being able to respond; but if you play well your cards, you should be able to keep him on the table versus most things (at least long enough to win the game, that's it).

And of course, don't be afraid to throw Marcus or the Jackalope into enemy models to keep your more squishy beasts out of harm just a bit longer.

16 hours ago, extremor said:

She is the model I struggle about the most. But I think I will have to get Groteslang and 1-2 Rougarou to make her work. So far I only had Bandersnatch (and Adze from now on).

Those models help but they aren't 100% needed to play her; Marcus bonus action move Chimeras and beasts so she is getting close to a free movement each turn by just being near of Marcus. Also she has a to defense and give that to chimeras (not beasts tho) around her; that's a godsend in a crew so card hungry and is one of the things that may make Marcus and Cojo durable. Her healing is good and that's needed to not start losing models too early so the other player can just go score. Also if you activate her before Marcus the first turn, you may have 2 mutations the first turn or 3 by turn 2.

She has a LOT of utility in her shapeshifting. For mobility for example, if you don't fear for her life and don't need the buff to defense around her, you may shapeshift into a Rougarou or a Rattler at the end of her activation to get Deadly Pursuit and swap back into Myranda at the start of her next activatioin (that's around 7,3'' free movement taking in count the placements at a cost of her bonus action one turn and a card the next one). Be careful with this as she can be sniped easily in beast form.

I think she has been in all my Marcus games so far; if I take Serena to support, she is going in as a Shapeshifter.

16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For those using Bandersnatch, are you also taking Widow Weaver?

Widow Weaver can set up webs for Bandersnatch to jump through, so I pretty much always recommend they be taken as a pair in other crews (so I assume the same applies here).

The combo of:

• Widow weaver jumps to a web, charges and attacks someone, throws them into a web (or just drops one near them).
• Bandernsatch activates teleport to the web, charges and takes 4 attacks (due to onslaught)

Seems pretty potent! It creates a whole danger zone around the web markers that people have to be conscious of. And if they don't come near the web markers, they can usually score 2-4 points on their own.

I usually take both, the Bander can also work on her own, but becoming much more predictable.

The above combo is good, but it's important to choose wisely the targets and turns; they won't have the damage to kill henchmans with that and the retaliation can kill one of them easily; versus scheme runners, supports and glassy models in general is good. However I take both to score something (Symbols, Breakthrought, Take Prisioner...), hunting things depends on if the other player isolates something worth killing but it's not my primary goal for that pair (for 16SS, there are better things to bring for damage tbh).

If Marcus is going to try this in turn 2 it's important to put only 2 mutations max during that turn (probably also stoning the swift action trigger to not having to cheat it) or he can weaken his hand too much for this to succeed. There is also some compromises to make:

• For damage Horns + Serrated is the best pair of mutations; but this is full glass cannon.
• The balanced one is Horns + Armor (Camo could be legit in some scenarios); but this one make the attack hand intensive because her targets are usually far away to put adversary on them with other model.
• The cheap one is Horns or Armor if you want to put the double mutation on other beast during that game.

Horns is also a mutation with other good holders that enables agression and the bander can't discard it so there is an oportunity cost here worth considering as picking bander for this means that a Rougarou with Horns (or a surprise Rougarou thanks to Myranda) is out of the question if Cojo is also in the game.

[MrPieChee]

How are slate ridge maulers rated, in general, but mainly with neverborn Marcus?

 

Sabertooth's get talked about a lot, but not much gets said about the equally costed maulers.

They are a lot slower, and to get min three they need to be 4 health or below, so I'm guessing armour is a must have mutation?

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

22 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

How are slate ridge maulers rated, in general, but mainly with neverborn Marcus?

 

Sabertooth's get talked about a lot, but not much gets said about the equally costed maulers.

They are a lot slower, and to get min three they need to be 4 health or below, so I'm guessing armour is a must have mutation?

 

Ordinarily Cerberus is just so much better I assume, but worth noting Laugh Off and Juggernaut are very strong abilities for holding your ground. Not to mention that 2" engagement range.

Leylines seems like a possible option. They would be fantastic at guarding symbols too, but a bit expensive for that.

[Ogid]

14 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

How are slate ridge maulers rated, in general, but mainly with neverborn Marcus?

 

Sabertooth's get talked about a lot, but not much gets said about the equally costed maulers.

They are a lot slower, and to get min three they need to be 4 health or below, so I'm guessing armour is a must have mutation?

I like them more in ARC where combat builds works better and they also have a fun gimmick: Pick Amina/Toni (Grit always active) and give one of them SS cache and Horns... the saber build is better, but that one can get people off guard as it creates an surprisingly tough bubble for a Marcus crew.

Not sure what the general consensus is, in my case in NVB I like more the faction's beasts that are better to just outmaneouver or get objectives; the bear has a place as a Lodestone carrier thanks to Laugh Off versus crews with a lot of displacements. I like it tho, it's kind of a jack of all trades, it's tanky, has some damage in the right circunstances and also scheming potential but I like the alternatives better for my playstile.

I don't tend to brawl with Marcus so aside for that lodestone role I don't tend to pick them a lot. I can see a role for them in more brawly builds, they are a decent Serrated holders to put Adversary early in the turn and engage some enemy models; they take a bit of effort to kill so are safer going first and the rest of the Keyword needs badly that buff to be able to do something. Just make sure to save cards to patch him up. Other models like The Beast Within the Scorpious (or even the Jackalope or Marcus himself) are also good for this role tho.

As for mutations... the bear is a model that can use most mutations well, Armor goes well but it's far from must have imho:

• Armor: Armor and H2W stacks very well and this can keep him alive with the Grit active.
• Wings: A model with 2'' engagement and BJ is great to control enemy crews with mostly 1'' mele range and can disengage him to charge with Horns.
• Serrated: A tanky model that can go in early to put Adversary and not get instantly destroyed.
• Horns: Decent moderate damage and with the Grit active they have high damage potential (not consistent unless you discard mutations tho).

So just pick one of the above or combine these to make the bear into what you need that game:

• Tarpit: Armor + Wings
• Enabler: Wings/Armor+ Serrated
• Brawler: Wings/Armor + Horns (Wings is probably better than Armor as it let him disengage to charge with Horns to maximice the damage, but depending on the other crew Armor may also work well)

Hope it helps!