Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hey everyone, I know he isn't the best master in the faction but someone has to be running Marcus somewhere.  He seems fun and everything in his keyword is fast and killy. Plus Inhuman Reflexes on Cerberus seems like a huge middle finger to your opponent. What is your Marcus tech and when are you running him? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I play a lot of Marcus in NB. I think he's absolutely fantastic as a master and actually has a lot of viability in the faction. People are bias, simply put. Arcanist Marcus is fine, he gets great

I choose him nominally when I really want universal unimpeded, which is more of a map concern. And Neverborn Marcus has to let go of double-cat builds and accept that his true minions are the Order In

Malifaux doesn't really have that sort of chain of ownership of the actions. If it did then you get into arguments like if I accomplice a model can it not walk if it is staggered, because it was only

The Arcanists thread on him mentions using him in Neverborn several times - worth a read.

The general consensus there is he's better in blue, but I've seen several mentions of him just having to play differently in purple (Soulstone cache seems to be a crutch all Arcanist players rely on with Marcus).

I keep seeing players mention that they've played against Neverborn Marcus, but never see the Marcus players report on the battle's...

(I'm a complete beginner, so reading what I can!)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am also waiting to see if any marcus experts emerge, I was briefly interested in him but 1. the fact i would have to buy so many new models (arcanist beasts and swampfiend keyword stuff, since I've avoided playing zoraida) and 2. Neverborn already has a lot of murder potential with the models I already own. 

At the same time the flexibility of the upgrades system and having so many swift and nasty minions can't be all bad, so I am sure there's a way to make him competitive... right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

He's not super bad. I'll play a few games every now and then with him.  Having inhuman ref. In 2 then feather wings on 2. That's 4 butterfly jumps.  Ferdinand Vogel  is fun. Take 2 sabers give them ir. I use cojo to toss Marcus where he needs to go.  Give jackalope a ton of mutations and keep him next to Marcus.  Marcus can shift damage and jackalope can keep coming back.  Also they've got the card draw with Marcus kinda fixed... kinda.  Keep miranda herself to heal.  Only shift her if it's late.  But he's a fun master but I hardly ever win with him... he just needs something a little more...

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is few information in the forums about him as he is new for NVB so it's hard to judge his true potential. I think he good and at least competitive viable; for example, in a recent tournament the NVB player who took the third position played 1 or 2 games with him.

@Fixxer is right, people are a bit biased about him; he doesn't have the Sabertooth + Soulstone cache, but in NVB there are a lot of options with the extra beasts and OOK models. Trying to mimic how Marcus is played in ARC is not going to work well (for example, as pointed above, a NVB Marcus won't have that many uses for stones while an ARC marcus like a fat cache to feed the soulstone cache minions or sabers in NVB while still dangerous are far for being the powerhouses they are in ARC, but we have a LOT of models with poison and the posibility to have 4 butterfly jump models)

If you like the master go for him.

I worte a bit about him here; it's not 100% curated info, but it may give you a good starting point to try things.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean he is better in Blue, but while he's probably pretty good in NVB, it's more of a... what does he bring to the faction that doesn't exist already?  We already have multiple crews that bring giant, upgraded murder beasts, some of which are better than what Marcus has in keyword.  We have crews that scheme better and can bring in OOK to bring in the hammer.  We already had everything Marcus provides before he showed up, so the only thing that he really brings is his unique upgrades which I don't see much use bringing him for.  In a nutshell... he's bland in NVB.

  • Respectfully Disagree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean he is better in Blue, but while he's probably pretty good in NVB, it's more of a... what does he bring to the faction that doesn't exist already?  We already have multiple crews that bring giant, upgraded murder beasts, some of which are better than what Marcus has in keyword.  We have crews that scheme better and can bring in OOK to bring in the hammer.  We already had everything Marcus provides before he showed up, so the only thing that he really brings is his unique upgrades which I don't see much use bringing him for.  In a nutshell... he's bland in NVB.

I think this is not the right way to look at him. He is designed to grab beasts from other keywords, so of course he doesn't bring anything unique to the table.

But he does bring unique combinations. Grootslang, Bandersnatch, WW and Rougarou bring a pretty crazy mobility suite, and he can field any or all of those for at most 1 SS tax. Throw in combos (onslaught on Bandy is a bit ridiculous, and those poison combos are decent), and it may be he is just overall super efficient even if no single element dominates anything else.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean he is better in Blue, but while he's probably pretty good in NVB, it's more of a... what does he bring to the faction that doesn't exist already?  We already have multiple crews that bring giant, upgraded murder beasts, some of which are better than what Marcus has in keyword.  We have crews that scheme better and can bring in OOK to bring in the hammer.  We already had everything Marcus provides before he showed up, so the only thing that he really brings is his unique upgrades which I don't see much use bringing him for.  In a nutshell... he's bland in NVB.

I do like his design a lot. He has a quite unique playstile and his mutations let you use beast models in roles and scenarios that are impossible without them. NVB isn't a very schemy faction, his scheming potential is very welcome.

I'd say he is more bland in ARC than in NVB. In ARC he has a top notch combo with the upgrades and some very good versatile options; but he lacks the ammount of tricks he can pull of in this faction, NVB has all the utility and condition/shenanigans based beasts, plus models working well with them.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...
On 7/24/2020 at 10:12 PM, Kharnage said:

Marcus has done okay the few times I've played him in Neverborn, but still overall find his Arcanist version to be superior.

Even with how much I like the beastmaster theme I'm having issues putting him in the table in NVB, specially after GG1. How do you minimice his dissadvantages and in which pools do you take him. My main problems with him are:

  • Very hand and resource intensive: having to put mutations getting the swift action trigger, plus every tactical needing a 6, the entire hand and several stonnes (when there is bad luck with masks and flips) go away the first 2 turns just in "bureocracy" and he can't start doing fun stuff until turn 3. So I either play with half of the crew as chimeras and the other half self-suficient stuff (and at that point I wonder why I'm not playing other master because Chimera do a very bad job supporting any non-beast/non-chimera model aside from cojo tossing them around) or just run in circles around the enemy the first 2 turns, which is very akward because Marcus with all his mobility can crash into them the first turn if he want to and his mutation play get outscaled by any other scaling mechanic in the game (Yan-Lo, lucid dream, summoning...)
  • Extremelly weak against condition play/terrifying/hand pressure. For a support master, he and his support henchman do a terrible job keeping the crew running when pressured by any non-damaging threat. They have no way to remove conditions from your expensive (plus master AP-boosted) beasts; so either you invest in more support to be able to do that (which isn't easy with how expensive beasts are) or get wrecked by slow, stunned and the like. It's also not fun how useless Marcus himself become when stunned (1 mutation per AP, can only move beasts... god). Plus no ruthless and in general low WP make them terrible versus terrifying. This makes him a risky pick against a lot of crews.
  • No way to use SS with beast in NVB, this make him extremelly hard to play in any scenario that implies combat; he has still some good damage combos (for example Cojo mauling them with 4-5 actions thanks to Accomplice or a Kidnap assasinate no-SS combo with Bander/WW + Scorpious) but these are harder to execute han other masters and leave you full open for retaliation if they fail and even when they succeed; SS for damage reduction is extremelly good and without a good way to buy triggers most beast are unreliable (or you have to discard mutations, which isn't a great option in the first place as these are the things keeping them alive/dangerous or is directly not an option with NVB beasts). Also he really need to make good use of Adversary to make up for his hungry hand, but this usually means striking later (which may get your ofensive beast killed) or putting that upgrade in the offensive beast making it very easy to kill in the first place. Too many hoops to jump through...

I find myself only getting him in heavy mobility based pools where there is little reward for clashing with the enemies (Kind of corner Corrupted/Symbols with the right pool of schemes) where he can abuse his mobility and maybe kill some overextended scheme runner. So, how do you play with him? Do you take him in any combat pool?

Ty in advance!

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ogid said:

How do you minimice his dissadvantages and in which pools do you take him.

I choose him nominally when I really want universal unimpeded, which is more of a map concern. And Neverborn Marcus has to let go of double-cat builds and accept that his true minions are the Order Initiates. By choosing Order Initiates, you solve many problems; you don't have to spend turn 1 scrambling to toss upgrades out; they already have at least 1, and they don't feel bad about ditching all their upgrades for + flips and suits, because they can just bonus action gain another one back at the end of their turn. This also means you provoke a lot more carefree card draw with Primal Domain. Additionally, they have a solid synergy with Inhuman Reflexes; they can charge through a target for 1 point with Blade Rush, and another 1 point with Stampede, and you've dealt 2 damage ignoring armor, incorporeal, black blood, etc. and you haven't even flipped a card yet. You can even order them to charge while engaged now. Sure, they lose an HP with stampede, but they have Tear Off a Bite (ditch upgrade if necessary!), Myranda, or Marcus's heal trigger to keep them healthy. That being said, they're not immortal, and they will die, but choosing which upgrade (Armor? Disguised and Stealth? Butterfly Jump?) will save them the most pain at the end of each activation is key to making them survive as long as possible.
As for condition removal, just, hire Serena. Take the Eldritch Magic upgrade if Serena hurts your pride, but healing/removal combo with a splash of armor pen is just a dream boat for the otherwise condition removal and pen hungry Chimera crew. 
I still take a cat. They're fantastic side board scheme runners and function relatively well without Marcus glued to their junk. 
My response comes with caveats; I haven't tried to plumb the depths of Neverborn's beast repertoire yet, so I can't say what benefits in terms of model choice Neverborn Marcus has. I do know that having a relatively low model count with a pair of Ancient Pacts and Accomplice means that Marcus can use a new turn to absolutely change how a fight is going before the foe has a chance to respond, a unique advantage to the purple side of life. I like him a lot for Symbols of Authority and Corrupted Leylines. Pools with Assassinate in them are also delightful; much effort has been wasted by ditched attacks to a Jackalope. Vendetta works well for a Marcus crew, because of the high offensive potential of his keyword.
He loathes terrifying, Von Schtook's Academic Superiority aura, and armor spam, so avoid those matchups where possible; don't pick him into Ressers or fighty pools with Arcanists/Guild (to avoid Hoffman). It might be instinct to avoid Jack Daw, but Jack actually hates Inhuman Reflexes Order Initiates, since they'll plink him to death whether they pass terror duels or not. The only real "total shut out" games are Schtook though. He takes Marcus's whole gimmick and tosses it into a trash can. 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

That build make sense to minimice the disadvantages. I'm not a huge fan of initiates, but I used them as a support with the ability to punish anyone that ends too close to them (doing exactly that, trading their upgrades), not as my primary attack beasts with IR. Also my lists in GG1 tend to have 8-9+ models with little to no upgrades (1 or 2 wisps and a doll are usually great utility wise) so I'm lacking in the activation control department to have more beasts to cover more terrain. A list with less models and those 4 upgrades (I think I saw that pattern before somewhere XD) may be a decent list for a quick timming attack back to back in turn 2/3; specially now that they cost 6 and the triggers in the other beasts cannot be used when Marcus is commanding. I'll definitelly will try that. I have serious concerns for their safety after the attack tho, 7 wds plus a mutation isn't hard to remove at all. So what do you take in this kind of list? Marcus, Myranda, 2 initiates and versatiles?

About the other comments: I never take double cat in NVB, without SS cache they are too fragile and not that reliable; I use 1 cat sometimes. I do use that for condition removal when I think conditions may be coming, but it really feels like a patch: Serena has a hard time keeping up with the crew or has to be babysitted by Cojo/Lures and Marcus has no way to give her Focused, which she needs to be decent at fighting; EM isn't very cost effective and require either an expensive beast tied to that role (a Rattler usually, that's 9SS) or a cheap beast/doll that can be removed easily; condition removal doesn't fit easily in his list but it's very necessary so it feels like their base kit is lacking. About purple beasts, I've used most of them, their utility is the best part of NVB Marcus (I ranted about it in the linked post above if you are curious), the only one that I rarely use is the corrupted hound, for 3 SS a doll is usually better. For example, Rougarous are quite good, with enough cards and horns they may be quite dangerous (but the enough cards part is the tricky one considering Marcus' hungry hand); but utility-wise they are also great, they are fast, with a defensive mutation they decently tanky and the 2'' in the attack (and the Roar) is amazing utility to deny points in corrupted or move a model defending a Symbol (plus posible shenanigans with Adze/Wisps aura).

Ty for the feedback; aside for that 4 upgrade build it seems I'm in the right path with him (I also take him in those strategies to avoid facing crew too focused in killing). It's a pity there is so much difference between blue and purple Marcus... he is a bit too niche in NVB I feel, but I'm not sure if there would be a way to buff him without breaking the blue counterpart :/

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Ogid said:

A list with less models and those 4 upgrades (I think I saw that pattern before somewhere XD)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think a big part of being Neverborn is double-ancient-pact builds! We give up quite a bit in terms of resource generation and defensive mechanics, and our reward is all-but-guaranteeing first activation, as long as we have that upgrade twice and a decently low model count. Lower cost models are for other factions; we don't have things like necropunks or soulstone miners, and frankly spending stones on a model that can be taken out by a single non-rj damage flip out of a 3/4/6 (looking at you, sorrows, bloodwretches, dolls, changelings, wisps, hounds, etc.) is a fool's choice, IMO. This is anecdotal, but I can't in my memory name a game in which a competently played crew wins the center scrum but loses the game to the grit and determination of low cost squishball models focusing on schemes. Scheme runners win games to be sure, but those that do are respectably tanky, like Necropunks, Desper, First Mate, Dawn Serpent, etc.

This brings me to a personal rant of mine; I see Wicked Dolls getting picks in all sorts of lists on here and I cannot fathom how they accomplish anything, other than watering down our chances of taking the first activation in a Turn. I certainly haven't played into any Wicked Doll comps, and if someone wants to post up for a game on Vassal to whip me with Wicked Dolls, please hit me up. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think a big part of being Neverborn is double-ancient-pact builds! We give up quite a bit in terms of resource generation and defensive mechanics, and our reward is all-but-guaranteeing first activation, as long as we have that upgrade twice and a decently low model count. Lower cost models are for other factions; we don't have things like necropunks or soulstone miners, and frankly spending stones on a model that can be taken out by a single non-rj damage flip out of a 3/4/6 (looking at you, sorrows, bloodwretches, dolls, changelings, wisps, hounds, etc.) is a fool's choice, IMO. This is anecdotal, but I can't in my memory name a game in which a competently played crew wins the center scrum but loses the game to the grit and determination of low cost squishball models focusing on schemes. Scheme runners win games to be sure, but those that do are respectably tanky, like Necropunks, Desper, First Mate, Dawn Serpent, etc.

This brings me to a personal rant of mine; I see Wicked Dolls getting picks in all sorts of lists on here and I cannot fathom how they accomplish anything, other than watering down our chances of taking the first activation in a Turn. I certainly haven't played into any Wicked Doll comps, and if someone wants to post up for a game on Vassal to whip me with Wicked Dolls, please hit me up. 

Hey, not intending on dive-bombing this thread, but as a newbie Neverborn player I'm very curious about your comment about double ancient-pact. Was that comment primarily for Marcus or was it a general statement about NVB playstyle? If it is a general statement, can you please elaborate how to use the initiative advantage? (What to do if you win the initiative and why?).

Thank you very much!

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Nightwing said:

Hey, not intending on dive-bombing this thread, but as a newbie Neverborn player I'm very curious about your comment about double ancient-pact. Was that comment primarily for Marcus or was it a general statement about NVB playstyle? If it is a general statement, can you please elaborate how to use the initiative advantage? (What to do if you win the initiative and why?).

Thank you very much!

Not every crew has a good ancient pact holder, but IMO it is one of the best upgrades in the game.

Card draw - going from 6 to 8 cards is a 33% increase. Neverborn tend to be pretty card hungry, so this makes a huge difference.

Initiative - once both players get really efficient, initiative is a big deal. The player who wins initiative is going to have activation control (either activating first and killing an enemy model, or activating last and getting an activation where your opponent can't respond). At a competitive level, activation control is a massive factor. For example, Nekima might end a turn activating and smash something, then start the next turn by killing the model and running to safety. Very hard to retaliate if you're losing initiative.

Ignoring black jokers is a small bonus. But it will really add up if you flip a lot of cards.

When taking it, always take it on a minion, IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Nightwing said:

 (What to do if you win the initiative and why?).

 

If you win it you get to go first in that turn. That means you get to hit models that have lost protection, and anything you kill won't have activated yet. You may also get to do double activation of a key model of you saved it till last 1 turn and the first next turn. 

How important this is depends a lot on how you play. For a lot of people it can be very important, especially in neverborn who can deal a lot of damage but aren't so good at getting hit. But you can also play in a way that you don't really care that much about it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Adran said:

If you win it you get to go first in that turn. That means you get to hit models that have lost protection, and anything you kill won't have activated yet. You may also get to do double activation of a key model of you saved it till last 1 turn and the first next turn. 

Just a small note here, but if you win it you decide between going first and second. First turn of the game I almost always decide to go second. Last turn of the game I sometimes want to go second.

The reason being having the last activation can be really handy for some tasks.

EDIT: to be more precise, whomever wins the initiative flip then chooses which player has initiative. The player with initiative then goes first.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

This is anecdotal, but I can't in my memory name a game in which a competently played crew wins the center scrum but loses the game to the grit and determination of low cost squishball models focusing on schemes. Scheme runners win games to be sure, but those that do are respectably tanky, like Necropunks, Desper, First Mate, Dawn Serpent, etc.

I've lost games where I narrowly won the centre scrum, but it soaked up so many resources I couldn't deal with the lone scheme runner scoring points.

Relatively rare, though. Normally dealing with squishy scheme runners is my top priority.

Although I often win games off the back of something like necrotic machine + crooligan scoring (4 stones spent), so that's something to consider as well.

I reckon a lone model to pull off some of your interacts works if they can't easily alpha strike it without consequence/you can protect it.

Edit: that said, my favourite scheme runners are models like Archie and Dead Rider. So definitely on board with small, elite crews.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 I'm still pretty focused on playing Marcus and Lucius at the moment. I really enjoy playing these masters despite their perceived power level. Fun is big for me... but, I do also like unlocking potential in KW's that appear lackluster on the surface. 

So far with GG1 I am a big fan of putting IR on Cojo. Here's the deal. Call of the Wild is NOT a once per activation. Cojo can charge multiple times in an activation. With Formidable horns he is getting a + to damage. He has  a built in push on the opponent and can now, with IR, push when anyone cheats within 6". This also adds blade rush for pip damage. Typically on turn 2 I'll give Cojo wings for the extra MV and BFJ so he can hop back to Myranda for heals and +df flips or out of engagement to charge again. He can basically charge every time he attacks and get that nasty charge through ability over and over again.

I just had a game where I was able to use Call of the wild twice in a row with Marcus (I had to move first to get in range) and then accomplice into Cojo for his activation. A ridiculous flurry of attacks that have a lot going for them in terms of a great 2/4/6 track and pip damage from BR. Cojo with a little luck and set up can smash any model into the ground. 

I also run the Order Initiate with IR for reasons stated above. THe Stampede + Blade rush  + mobile warrior is a nasty combo in a crew that has 2 models able to command charges.  I typically put armored plates on him so he can be one shotted by a RJ from a beater. This at least gives him a bit more staying power for a 6ss model. 

That basically fills out my core right now for his crew. Marcus, Jackalope, Myranda, Cojo +IR and Order Initiate +IR. The rest becomes flex and I tend to only take 2-3 stones anymore.  I think there are a lot of hiring options based on the pool. I take Adze pretty often, I like FV, Sabertooth.

The next thing I am looking into is a crew focused on the Scorpius. This would include Vasilisa for additional heals on constructs and will most likely include Hinamatsu also. We'll see how that goes, I really enjoy the poison build but would like to see a bit more sturdiness. I think the armor 2 on 3 models (give scorpius armor T1) AND healing will be helpful. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Double pact lists are very good, I think we all agree there; but there is life beyond that imo, small models used in the right way are very valuable; they may die easily but they aren't positioned in the same way that other more expensive and sturdy, so unless the oponent has a very fast crew (that can chase them easily) they are a resource sink for the other player when well used.

I've had some luck with Marcus agro lists (using the kind of tricks you describe) in turn 2/3, but not versus very combat focused crews (and that's why I avoid pools that favor those kind of masters). Masters like Misaki, Dreamer or Pandora just walk over a Marcus crew in a direct clash; Marcus can outmaneouver them, but that needs a pool that reward him for doing so; if the victory condition is winning the center brawl then he is out of luck versus those masters (at least for me). But it's clear I have to give those initiates a second chance...

In what kind pool do you pick him now in GG1 @Fixxer? How do you handle those kind of combat focused crews? How many upgrades do you usually use in turns 1 and 2?

6 hours ago, Fixxer said:

The next thing I am looking into is a crew focused on the Scorpius. This would include Vasilisa for additional heals on constructs and will most likely include Hinamatsu also. We'll see how that goes, I really enjoy the poison build but would like to see a bit more sturdiness. I think the armor 2 on 3 models (give scorpius armor T1) AND healing will be helpful. 

Maybe WW+Bander could be a good pick there if they fit your list (in theory only with WW could be enough, but the combo become harder to execute). WW can deliver a poisoned model next to a web to put that Neurotoxin aura in good use :)

7 hours ago, Nightwing said:

Thank you very much for all the replies! I have further questions, but instead of posting them here, I probably will open a own topic.

See you then, and thanks again!

Feel free to ask, you'll find this is a nice comunity. Check for example this recent thread, the second list have that pattern of few models + double AP (+Focused) for a very strong alpha strike.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually dropped Marcus last night into Brewmaster and had a blast. I really do encourage Order Initiates with him with IR, that combo stacked very strongly, but they also take some of the pressure off him to have a perfect turn 1 with handing out upgrades and you get some card draw to boot. Also have loved the Adze with him, having a Lure to isolate enemy models is great.

@Fixxer are you finding Myranda worth the cost?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Love purple Marcus, my staple crew members are bandersnatch with horns, Cerberus with wings and scoroius5 with armour. 

What I like about Marcus is how flexible he is. He seems to be able to draw a crew together to meet all S&S requirements and enhance the skills and abilities needed so they're even more effective. Also, very fast crew and a special shout out to Crockett, absolute steal at 6ss

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to still have your entusiasm about this master... My pink glasses dropped about GG1 when he got hit harder than top tier masters, which make me think he is only being balanced taking in count the blue version. I still like him and I still play him in casual games, but for me he isn't a master for when things get serious (when your adversary pick his best list, counterpick and not do stuff like attacking him when the Jackalope sitting right next to him).

He has too many weaknesses and hard counters to be a good combat crew in NVB, he is totally outclased by the other master in that department; and for running around scheming in a competitive game I'd rather play a more reliable crew. Has anyone done well maining this master in a tournament in GG1 (even in Vassal)?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information