Lucius Under Pressure trigger

[Yore Huckleberry]

This was asked in the Guild thread, but can Lucius push 2” away from the center of his own model if he targets himself with Issue Command and uses the Under Pressure trigger?

Narrowly, the rules require that the object being pushed move away from the center of the object. Lucius himself being the center, the push is always away from his own center, even if you want to be continually checking it throughout the push through some sort of timing calculus.

Has this been discussed? My basic search didn’t pull it up, and I believe the recent TFW episode on Lucius declared this possible, so I’m sure a lot of people will be asking.

[Yore Huckleberry]

Intriguingly, height rules in Malifaux offer a similar possible case where Lucius on an elevated platform with holes in it could see a model directly beneath him whose base is centered exactly where Lucius’s is. In that case, we presumably would understand that the model could be pushed, and in any direction, even though you’d be arbitrarily selecting some point of the lower figure’s base that is off in a given arbitrary direction from the center of Lucius for determining “away.”

Similarly; it seems to me that Lucius can make the same technical choice about himself, arbitrarily choosing any point along his base between his center and the intended direction of his push, and say “the model is here (among other places), and this is in direction X from the center of Lucius (who happens to also be the model), therefore Lucius will push in direction X, which satisfies the condition “away from Lucius” because “away” is defined from the center of the figure you are pushing away from.”

[le_wahou]

Malifaux is a 2D game with elevation rules. Using these rules as example to open a discussion on pushing away from yourself is a little frightening.

Pushing away from a superposed model is something that will probably never happen. you must choose to move your model in a position of superposition. the player doing this is in my opinion trying to exploit a weak point of the rule. i do not see a reason to give a general answer here. The one trying to exploit should be wrong.

Pushing away from yourself is not possible. You will end your push at 0" from yourself. I do not see any good reason to accept a move in any direction here.

[Yore Huckleberry]

I mean, that’s simply the most-similar case.

Again, the Lucius “experts” on TFW pointed out that this is legal, so I’m curious if there is a ruling somewhere?

[Yore Huckleberry]

It seems to me the best opposing case would be that a push needs to be drawn to the center of the model being pushed, from the center of the model it is pushing away from. In this case, that line cannot exist because those points are identical, and therefore do not constitute a line.
 

The best case in support is that with identical points the push can be in any direction because the pushed distance will intersect with both the center of the pushed object and the initial point it is pushing away from.

[Adran]

46 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I mean, that’s simply the most-similar case.

Again, the Lucius “experts” on TFW pointed out that this is legal, so I’m curious if there is a ruling somewhere?

There are no " rulings" out there that aren't the rule book st the moment. 

I'm not convinced by its claim to be pushing away from itself because it never gets any further away than it started. ( pushing away uses the centre of the models). It's not completely clear in the rules book either way but it feels wrong to do a push away that never actually moves away. 

[Adran]

50 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

It seems to me the best opposing case would be that a push needs to be drawn to the center of the model being pushed, from the center of the model it is pushing away from. In this case, that line cannot exist because those points are identical, and therefore do not constitute a line.

I think your geometry is a little rusty. 

The actual argument would be draw a line that contains 0,0 and 0,0 and move along that line such as the two points never get closer, which is possible. 

[solkan]

This just feels a lot like Mah Tucket's "push into base contact" with herself scenario in M2E, which was ruled that it doesn't do anything.  🤷‍♀️

In order to move for a push, you a straight line.  For away from or towards yourself, all you have is a point.  You don't have a line to follow, you don't have a line to push along.

 

[Yore Huckleberry]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I think your geometry is a little rusty. 

The actual argument would be draw a line that contains 0,0 and 0,0 and move along that line such as the two points never get closer, which is possible. 

To be fair to my geometry, I literally laid that case out above in the paragraph where I made the case against it.

Regardless, I just listened again to the TFW episode, and the trigger they were discussing with using Issue Command on yourself was the condition ending one, so the thing that got me confused about how this was possible in the first place turns out to be a listening error anyway. Happy enough with Lucius without it!

[le_wahou]

Ok, I understand on the other trigger. That's really an efficient action, yes. For a 5 with symbol, you get to remove a condition and anoher action.