Consumed by Pride and bluffing

[Scoffer]

Pride's Consumed by Pride ability:

When an enemy model within a6 would Cheat Fate, this model may discard a Sin Token from the enemy model to have the Cheated card be discarded instead of Cheated. The enemy model cannot Cheat Fate again during that duel. 

 

The "Cheating Fate" section of the rulebook describes the procedure of Cheating as 3 steps: 1. Choose a card in hand, 2. Put it in Conflict, 3. Discard the previous card from Conflict.

It's pretty obvious, that Consumed by Pride happens after step 1 (because it says "the cheated card") and before step 2 (because cheating is replaced by discarding). 

My question is: do I have to reveal the card I want to Cheat with to my opponent before he decides to use Consumed by Pride? Or is it enough to mark that card (put it on the table facedown or hold it in the other hand etc) and declare "I want to use this card to Cheat!"?

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

My question is: do I have to reveal the card I want to Cheat with to my opponent before he decides to use Consumed by Pride? Or is it enough to mark that card (put it on the table facedown or hold it in the other hand etc) and declare "I want to use this card to Cheat!"?

Effects that go off on "would" don't give you the option of waffling.    You commit to doing the thing, and then the "would" effect goes off and changes how things play out.

And as soon as you put in the conflict:

Quote

All information on cards in the Conflict is public knowledge.

 

Additionally, in cases where you wonder "Is this private information?" there's a pretty good overview in the Gaining Grounds Gaining Grounds Season 0 document:

Quote

Public Information

All information in Gaining Grounds games is considered public information unless it is specifically stated otherwise in the rules (such as a player's Control Hand, Fate Deck, chosen Schemes).

If a player's opponent wants to see a game card, know how many Fate Cards are in their Control Hand, or seeks other pertinent information, that information must be provided. Players may not lie or purposefully mislead their opponents about public information in the game.

Information about the outcomes of games and the status of the event is also public information.

So, no, there's no "I want to use this card to cheat fate" unless you find a model that has permission to cheat fate with a face down card (those existed in M2E, I can't remember if they still exist in M3E).

 

[diki]

Unless you also have something like " Aura of Deception " - Until the End Phase, friendly models within range may Cheat Fate with the card face down. The card is revealed before declaring Triggers but after the opposing player has Cheated Fate (or chosen not to do so).

[Yore Huckleberry]

The question seems to be about the timing window -- when EXACTLY Pride has to intervene to strip away the cheat card -- rather than whether you can bluff that you're cheating in the first place, and I'm not sure the answers have addressed that precisely, yet?

It seems to me that once you cheat, yes, the card becomes public information, but I do see the question: is there a timing window where Pride has to act before knowing the card, since Pride's intervention would prevent "cheating" from happening. So if Pride is preventing Cheating from happening, it does seem reasonable that at least one step is prevented. Step 3 certainly is: you don't discard the original flipped/selected card. But I at least see the question: step 1 doesn't say to reveal the chosen card; that rather seems to be an effect of step 2. So does Pride have to intervene after step 1 (clearly it must occur for there to BE a selected card referenced by the ability) or after step 2?

[Yore Huckleberry]

Just now, Yore Huckleberry said:

The question seems to be about the timing window -- when EXACTLY Pride has to intervene to strip away the cheat card -- rather than whether you can bluff that you're cheating in the first place, and I'm not sure the answers have addressed that precisely, yet?

It seems to me that once you cheat, yes, the card becomes public information, but I do see the question: is there a timing window where Pride has to act before knowing the card, since Pride's intervention would prevent "cheating" from happening. So if Pride is preventing Cheating from happening, it does seem reasonable that at least one step is prevented. Step 3 certainly is: you don't discard the original flipped/selected card. But I at least see the question: step 1 doesn't say to reveal the chosen card; that rather seems to be an effect of step 2. So does Pride have to intervene after step 1 (clearly it must occur for there to BE a selected card referenced by the ability) or after step 2?

Framing it out explicitly:

A model with a sin token in range of Pride declares that s/he will be cheating fate.
Presumably, Pride does not have to tell the player at this point whether Pride will be affecting their cheat card, as that would allow the cheating figure to know they should select a poor card.
Step 1: Cheating model selects a card. The card is not yet in the conflict, so it is not public knowledge by the conflict rules. The "control hand" is still "public knowledge" in the sense that the opponent can ask for the number of cards there, but not, e.g,. what those cards are. If Pride must act HERE, there doesn't seem to be anything explicit making the card's identity known.
Step 2: Cheating model's controller puts the chosen card into the conflict. Governed by the "cards in the conflict are public knowledge rule," the card is now public knowledge. If Pride intervenes HERE, then obviously Pride's controller gets to know its identity.
Step 3: the original card in the Conflict is discarded. We know that the "cheated card" must be discarded instead, so the card in your hand becomes the "cheated card" at some point earlier than this.

I think that both the game's general emphasis on player agency (e.g., the Pride player should get value out of Pride's abilities), and the fact that Pride's ability describes the card as a "cheated card" suggests that the card was actually placed into the Conflict, and should be considered public knowledge. It's colloquial and not technical, but it's hard to view a card as "cheated" if it is discarded directly from your hand.