Joss

[Bort]

I have a question about Joss in an Hoffman Augmented squad.

Maybe I just had some bad experiences with him so far (haven't really played him a lot, but never got much good out of him).

But on paper Joss just doesn't feel like he brings the same power at 10 ss than some of the other options  (like Howard, Peacekeeper or Ryle if DMH is included).

 

So am I missing something big, or simply missing experience?

 

For 10ss 

Howard brings the same 10 wounds 1 armor (but only DF4).  But he is also terrifying.   2" range with 3/4/5 track with really good triggers, and Trail of Gore for more attacks.

Peacekeeper only has 9 wounds but 2 armor (also only DF4).  2" range 3/4/6 track with some triggers, Trail of Gore and Flurry.

Even the Guardian feels like a better option.

 

Guess maybe I'm too focussed on the melee attack? Since Joss has other uses (range attack / robot obey etc) while the others are basically just melee beaters. 

So maybe my question should be (to the more experienced players).  What should I be trying to do with Joss, and when should I be including/excluding him in my squad.

 

 

 

[eddy]

Joss brings Irreducible damage, great triggers, ruthles, blast, shielding pulse, and construct obey.

What more do you want?

[Adran]

Joss also adds scrap marker production, and doesn't need scrap markers to create power tokens.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, eddy said:

Joss brings Irreducible damage, great triggers, ruthles, blast, shielding pulse, and construct obey.

What more do you want?

Problem I have is he is sorta jack of all trades, and ends up doing nothing.

Ok, so Ruthless + Irreducible damage suggests you want him hitting the enemy.

Shield Pulse + Construct Obey makes him a support piece that needs to hang back, and keep close to my other guys.
On the other hand his demise ability basically makes him a liability close to my own guys.  Unless others find it easy to keep him 3" but not 2" from your own guys. Or keep the power tokens very low.

He wants to be 3" for the shield pulse, but not 2" for the demise.  And he can shoot somewhat. But Augmented is full of support pieces, as well as strong attackers.

 

So, ironically since he kinda does both, I find it harder to get him in the right place at the right time.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Adran said:

Joss also adds scrap marker production, and doesn't need scrap markers to create power tokens.

Good points.

[Legislat]

He is a nasty rocket, that's all. You can really threaten something with him.

1) give mobile toolkit fast.

2) transfer power token from mt to Joss

3) give Joss fast.

4) MT gives Joss 3 focus.

5) in his activation Joss uses command construct on guardian to toss himself and then charge some poor fella for a lot of hurt. Or just threaten to do so - that's a powerful move in itself. Nobody is forcing you, right? 😉

[Adran]

If you are rigid with your game plans and can always get your "beater" beating face, then yes you may well find that a dedicated beater will do more for you than Joss. If you find you often have to makes things up on the fly, then you might find a jack of all trades more useful. (The specialist model is either great or rubbish, depending on how much you get it to do what its specialised in. The generalist is much less likely to be amazing, because you never can use all its abilities, but is also much less likely to ever be rubbish, because it has more options on what to do).

There are times I would say Joss is the right call for me, but there are other times when Howard, or a peacekeeper instead are the right call. It does depend on what you plan on the model doing, and what your personal play style is like.

[DuBlanck]

He's had a bit of a run out with Me Feng to good effect - Ruthless with irreducable damage, on a good stat with a reasonable spread, is solid. I play against a lot of Ressurs though, where Ruthless is valuable.

As @Ogid says below, he's one of very few Ruthless options, the value of which is not to be understated.

Add to that he's decently stodgy even without stones, and has a couple of utility powers.

[Ogid]

7 hours ago, Bort said:

What should I be trying to do with Joss, and when should I be including/excluding him in my squad.

You said it, other models bring more raw damage but he brings particular tricks that may be useful

• Sturdy: He is a henchman, most of the others aren't.
• Ruthless: One of the few options in ARC
• Irreducible damage: Nuff said.
• Electroshock: Stunned is very good.
• Extra tricks: Gun, shielded, command...

For an ofensive role you should be looking at Ruthless, irreducible and electroshock; if you need those, he is the one. Also mind Diesel on him; he can disengage with Transfer power and get the charge bonus every turn even if he is engaged.

[Bort]

Thanks for all the replies.  Will give him another go and hopefully be able to revise my opinion.

[Bort]

Just an update to say that I finally had a good game with Joss.

Turns out Electric Discharge was the perfect answer to my brewmaster Whiskey Golem issue. 

Even though in the end Fingers suggested to him to go have a chat with Melissa.  Which led him to die to poison, and do some harsh damage and injuries to her. But it was the first time he felt worth his points.

 

So I guess my initial thoughts on him was simply due to lack of experience.

 

 

[Ogid]

Good to hear you made it work! 

With Diesel Joss can reasonably kill the Golem (specially if the golem is at 8 wds or less) with his  in 1 activation if you are willing to expend resources on him (starting at 8'' or less than the golem, having at least 1 Power token and 1 Focused+1). But this is the kind of play that you carefuly plan to then get a BJ when you try in a game XD.

8 hours ago, Bort said:

Even though in the end Fingers suggested to him to go have a chat with Melissa.  Which led him to die to poison, and do some harsh damage and injuries to her. But it was the first time he felt worth his points.

About this part, finger's trigger is in his mele attack; this means Joss would be engaged. He cannot charge or use his  while engaged, so unless Melissa was within 1'' of Joss, she was safe. The worse thing he can command is use Force Field to deplete his power Tokens (but still giving Shielded to his Friendly models nearby)

Note these obey-like effects don't change if a model is Friendly/Enemy, an obeyed model is still engaged by an enemy and a friendly model attacked by it may relent the attack for example.

[Bort]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

Good to hear you made it work! 

With Diesel Joss can reasonably kill the Golem (specially if the golem is at 8 wds or less) with his  in 1 activation if you are willing to expend resources on him (starting at 8'' or less than the golem, having at least 1 Power token and 1 Focused+1). But this is the kind of play that you carefuly plan to then get a BJ when you try in a game XD.

About this part, finger's trigger is in his mele attack; this means Joss would be engaged. He cannot charge or use his  while engaged, so unless Melissa was within 1'' of Joss, she was safe. The worse thing he can command is use Force Field to deplete his power Tokens (but still giving Shielded to his Friendly models nearby)

Note these obey-like effects don't change if a model is Friendly/Enemy, an obeyed model is still engaged by an enemy and a friendly model attacked by it may relent the attack for example.

I might have the exact details mixed up. Was late (both in real time and in the game)  I do recall my opponent was thinking of using the force field to rid the tokens but then couldn't (failed). Guess it was the other way around. Melissa got commanded into Joss.     Will keep the "cannot charge" in mind next time.  Because I also used Joss' robo-obey on the Whiskey Golem, although itwas out of melee range.  

Either way, Joss ended up hurting her feelings a bit by exploding right next to her, instead of 2" away from Brewmaster and Fingers as he was supposed to.  

 

 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Bort said:

I might have the exact details mixed up. Was late (both in real time and in the game)  I do recall my opponent was thinking of using the force field to rid the tokens but then couldn't (failed). Guess it was the other way around. Melissa got commanded into Joss.     Will keep the "cannot charge" in mind next time.  Because I also used Joss' robo-obey on the Whiskey Golem, although itwas out of melee range.  

Either way, Joss ended up hurting her feelings a bit by exploding right next to her, instead of 2" away from Brewmaster and Fingers as he was supposed to.  

Haha, It was good for him not being able to get rid of those tokens then.

About the obey. An obeyed model can do the same things it can do while is being controled by his owner (but within the limits of the ability, aka no or summon-like abilities). In your case as Fingers has the trigger in his mele attack, both Joss or Melissa would be engaged when commanded so they can't charge or use (as they normally can't; a model with Mobile Warrior for example could charge in that scenario). However if Joss's command the Golem while this isn't engaged with anything, he could charge or use  as usual.

[ebolazaire]

9 hours ago, Bort said:

I might have the exact details mixed up. Was late (both in real time and in the game)  I do recall my opponent was thinking of using the force field to rid the tokens but then couldn't (failed). Guess it was the other way around. Melissa got commanded into Joss.     Will keep the "cannot charge" in mind next time.  Because I also used Joss' robo-obey on the Whiskey Golem, although itwas out of melee range.  

Either way, Joss ended up hurting her feelings a bit by exploding right next to her, instead of 2" away from Brewmaster and Fingers as he was supposed to.  

 

 

Joss was pushed out by Brewmaster defensive trigger.
Fingers wanted to get the shielded but failed to offer a drink to Joss.

 

edit: though I'm pretty sure i messed it up in the last turn vs Melissa.

[Bort]

31 minutes ago, ebolazaire said:

Joss was pushed out by Brewmaster defensive trigger.
Fingers wanted to get the shielded but failed to offer a drink to Joss.

 

edit: though I'm pretty sure i messed it up in the last turn vs Melissa.

Aah, well, there was lots of stuff being moved around or being controlled.  Moral of the story... don't get drunk poisoned.  

And no worries, I'm pretty certain I messed up things too.

[SunTsu]

On 2/10/2020 at 7:27 AM, Bort said:

So I guess my initial thoughts on him was simply due to lack of experience.

I subscribe what others said about Joss.

I just want to underline that having irreducible damage also it's a threat for soulstones users (henchmen and masters), so Joss is a good tool against crews that heavely rely on SS.