Lucius extreme hand attack list

[extremor]

The Lucius guild deep dive from Third Floor Wars gave me new ideas. Have you tried a "Extreme Hand Attack" yet?

The idea behind the list is to maximise the attacks Missinformation and Interrogate. To extremely do the trick you have to place the Scribe within 6" a low WP model so the Betrayal Aura takes effect. You could also exploid the Distraction Aura of the False Witness to do that.... Than you attack that exact model with Missinformation and Interrogate. The Agent 46 and the Doppelganger can Mimic the Interrogate. The Lawyer and the Changeling can give an additional AP to the Agent 46/Investigator/Doppelganger. 

Maybe the Doppelganger could be droped for an additional beater, just to get some benefit from your opponent not having a controlhand to cheat. Or you try to exploid the execute trigger and hand out slow with Alan Reid. 

 

Since the list doesn't look any fancy at all, what do you think about it?

 

Lucius HandControl In Keyword (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 3
Leader:
  Lucius Mattheson
Totem(s):
  The Scribe
Hires:
  Agent 46
  Alan Reid
  Doppleganger
  Investigator
  Guild Lawyer
  False Witness
  Changeling
 

[4thstringer]

If I was leaning into this build, I would drop the changeling for stones to hit executes with agent 46 and reid.  In guild I would also consider grimwell, he attacks hand even better than interrogate in my experience.

[Ogid]

Seems like a legit strategy, but a player should be careful when pushing this kind of gimmick too far in a crew build. The objective of the game is still get VP, if this kind of build is a good fit to get those VPs in that game; then sure, go for it.

However I'd mix this hand attack strategy with Puppets (Vasilisa + Dolls) in NVB Lucius, the models with this kind of hand draining mechanics are investigators, who benefice from staggered and puppets play also with staggered and attack the hand. And for sure take advantage of this hand draining mechanic to force extra cards/SS discard with execute.

I'd try something like this for a Hand attack crew:

• Lucius, Scribe, Agent, Alan, Investigator, Lawyer, Vasilisa, Doll, Doll, 6SS.

In fact with this crew there is a quite powerful turn opening movement if several puppets are able to get engaged with several enemies. A doll may attack, deal some damage and force a discard then Accomplice into Alan; then Alan can use "One more Question" cheating/stoning "Coordinated attack" trigger to make 2 aditional puppets attack and force discards in aditional models all basically in the first activation of the turn. Another cute trick of this list is Vasilisa "pulling the strings" can make the Lawyer use "Impasioned Defense" again in her activation and that shielded is huge for the dolls; giving them the extra Wds they need to hope to survive at least 1 hit in mele. Another advantage of Vasilisa combined with Lucius card draw is she will have an easy time summoning dolls/stitcheds if the original dolls die (and those pass tokens given to the enemy will also give card draw). Not sure how good this crew would be tho.

[Nagi21]

9 hours ago, Ogid said:

I'd try something like this for a Hand attack crew:

• Lucius, Scribe, Agent, Alan, Investigator, Lawyer, Vasilisa, Doll, Doll, 6SS.

 Not sure how good this crew would be tho.

I mean Luci, Scribe, Agent, and a lawyer are auto takes in... always, and Vasi is a force multiplier so she's pretty useful here (and gets help from the card cycling).  The only question then becomes are Alan, Investigator, and a second doll better than some things.  I would put IR on 46 every time since that's gonna keep him alive a lot.  Investigators seem fine at cost, especially with the synergy here so that looks good.  My hesitation on that list would be, is Alan and 4 stones better than a second lawyer and 6 stones.

[Ogid]

On 1/25/2020 at 8:19 AM, Nagi21 said:

I would put IR on 46 every time since that's gonna keep him alive a lot.  Investigators seem fine at cost, especially with the synergy here so that looks good.  My hesitation on that list would be, is Alan and 4 stones better than a second lawyer and 6 stones.

Good points. I'd also put IR in 46, but not sure about this game, the extra SS is good to buy Execute triggers and I'd pick Alan over the second lawyer so 4SS would be low to me for this list; also this list is built around Alan, investigators and puppets synergies so even if the model is nuts, keeping 46 safe isn't that high priority.

I'd pick Alan because 2 lawyers in this list would be too much support, Vasilisa+dolls are annoying but the damage output is low; an extra model able to put some pressure and benefice from staggered is needed imo. Alan have a slowing attack with a Coordinated attack trigger and startle to stagger and let himself or other models make full use of their abilities (and also an execute trigger); so yes, I'd definitiely pick him over a second lawyer.

[Dark Reaper]

I am not an expert on NVB at all, but I think IR is a really good upgrade for an investigator. The ability to charge while engaged helps them a ton, so they won't need the push shenanigans of Lawyers or FWs dropping markers to get into combat with someone who engaged them with a 1" or 2" melee range. 

[Ogid]

26 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

I am not an expert on NVB at all, but I think IR is a really good upgrade for an investigator. The ability to charge while engaged helps them a ton, so they won't need the push shenanigans of Lawyers or FWs dropping markers to get into combat with someone who engaged them with a 1" or 2" melee range.

Agree, it seems good (in general IR in any damage minion is good with NVB Lucius); the reposition is a nice extra, but the crew has a lot of ways to put investigators in 0'' range (in this list even dolls with creep along can also be used for that) and those markers can be removed for exta card draw. For me the best part would be butterfly jump to keep them a bit safer and blade rush that can be triggered several times thanks to all the obeys (on top of the reposition).

[Dark Reaper]

Yeah, but imo those are always the main thing with that upgrade. The charge while engaged just makes everything gel a little bit easier with all the commands and obeys.

[extremor]

28 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Agree, it seems good (in general IR in any damage minion is good with NVB Lucius); the reposition is a nice extra, but the crew has a lot of ways to put investigators in 0'' range (in this list even dolls with creep along can also be used for that) and those markers can be removed for exta card draw. For me the best part would be butterfly jump to keep them a bit safer and blade rush that can be triggered several times thanks to all the obeys (on top of the reposition).

No Problem. Opponent charges, you jump out of engagement range and charge yourself aferwards... therefor IR seems great!!!

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

Yeah, but imo those are always the main thing with that upgrade. The charge while engaged just makes everything gel a little bit easier with all the commands and obeys.

Yep, it's a great QoL upgrade and a 0'' engagement model get a lot of mileage out of that, my point was that's not the main reason I'd pick that upgrade in this crew (but in other crews with less mobility tricks I'd be tho); In this case is the extra damage and safety for the holder.

3 hours ago, extremor said:

No Problem. Opponent charges, you jump out of engagement range and charge yourself aferwards... therefor IR seems great!!!

Agree, it's a good upgrade. (Asuming we are talking about a non-minion) That works if the other player attack your model, if not you are stuck in mele and cannot charge again (but at least is a way to make them think twice before attacking the model). With Lucius it's not that problematic because the obeyed models can perform any action; if the model is engaged, it can still declare an attack and just lose the ping damage. The charge while engaged part of that upgrade becomes more important in a Marcus crew because they can only command to charge or move.

[Regelridderen]

I like the idea of Lucius as Puppetmaster with Vasilisa. 

Although I’m not sure Agent 46 is that necessary in the crew. The Investigators quickly become Min3 beaters and with Lawyers/Changelings, you can focus their attacks. While False Witness/Wicked Dolls can hand out Adversary like candy. 

-

Another way to go, could be Lucius with Woes. The crew is good at handing out Slow that Kade can benefit from. Candy will always make a nuisance of herself. 

[extremor]

thank you all a lot for your advice. It gave me a lot to think about!

 

@Ogid

I really like the idea of NVB Lucius with Vasilisa and I will definitely try it. There are quite nice synergies beween these models: hand control and staggered seem to match fine. 

@Dark Reaper

I tend to give IR to the Investigator. The butterfly jump will help to keep him more safe and the charge while already engaged is nice to deal some extra damage through issue command and obey. Or to use the last action to charge out of engagement so the investigator may stay alive a bit longer. Seems legit to me. 

@Regelridderen

I think the agent is still useful since he keeps the opponent from cheating against a copied Interrogate. Maybe it is too much of the handcontrol strategie as Ogrid mentioned, but I will give it a try. 

I will try out a similar list asap and I will post feedback. 

 

Once again, thank you a lot! I'm filled with ideas! 😄

[Regelridderen]

 

@Regelridderen

I think the agent is still useful since he keeps the opponent from cheating against a copied Interrogate. Maybe it is too much of the handcontrol strategie as Ogrid mentioned, but I will give it a try. 

The Agent will always be useful - yet keep in mind, that your opponent will have a hard time cheating against any of your models, when he has no cards to do so

It could actually be one case, where the Doppleganger is more useful, than the agent. 

[Adran]

12 hours ago, extremor said:

I think the agent is still useful since he keeps the opponent from cheating against a copied Interrogate. Maybe it is too much of the handcontrol strategie as Ogrid mentioned, but I will give it a try. 

In most cases this means the opponent has lost a good card, rather than just their worse card from the attack. (Ok you don't get to draw, or the triggers, but if the intent is to deplete the opponents hand, then depleting good cards is better than depleting low cards, so them cheating to stop an interrogate still gets their hand 1 lower (which was your aim).

[extremor]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

In most cases this means the opponent has lost a good card, rather than just their worse card from the attack. (Ok you don't get to draw, or the triggers, but if the intent is to deplete the opponents hand, then depleting good cards is better than depleting low cards, so them cheating to stop an interrogate still gets their hand 1 lower (which was your aim).

 Yes you are right. Noone will cheat anyway if he/she has got a weak to diacard. So missinformation is an important key and the Agent is useful for execute later on...?

oh i have to try and get experience 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, extremor said:

Yes you are right. Noone will cheat anyway if he/she has got a weak to diacard. So missinformation is an important key and the Agent is useful for execute later on...?

oh i have to try and get experience

Discard effects/choices with Execute in the crew put pressure in the other player just being there. If he go too far discarding or cheating, he will be punished later in the turn (Pandora uses this same tactic). It'll make your oponent think twice about using cards so yes, they are better reserved to later in the turn than frontloaded (but in Lucius case an activated model can still be dangerous with all the obeys in the crew tho)

Missinformation is a very powerful ability, having 6 cards in the hand we can asume than in average a player will have 2 weaks, 2 moderate and 2 severe cards in the hand. Removing the 2 best cards in the hand and replacing them by random cards will hurt a lot the "cheating power" of that player even if the number of cards stays the same. However mind Missinformation has short range tho. The good part is as it's attacking the other player's resources it's as effective in a master than in the cheapest minion. If you manage to get some non-threatening minion near of Lucius; it could be worth it keeping it alive to butcher the other player hand turn after turn (and it has synergy with schemes like hold up their forces or Take Prisioner).

Looking forward to hear how it works .

[extremor]

Yes, therefor A huge argument towards doppelganger is lure! (Next to oc don’t mind me)

[extremor]

I played aganist a Misaki Crew today, played by a beginner and I tested this concept. It went quite disapoining, since his whole crew (exceptone tanuki) had WP6 or WP7. And I had to fight his attacks and his high WP with cards and stones from the beginning. He managed to snipe my Scribe with his second activation - flipping very lucky. I chose a flexible crew (keyword only) since he is a beginner and I was unable to get my models in position. Now I know, this concept leans towards activating Lucius early each turn, which I usually don't do. It feels completely different, not having multiple options to "reactivate" most models. I really have to try this out more often to see what went wrong. 

 

the crew I played was: Lucius, Scribe, Agent, Alan, Doppelganger, Investigator with IR, Lawyer, False Witness 

setup was: Turf war, harness, vendetta, breakthrough, claimump, dig...

[Ogid]

That kind of games happens. Misaki's crew has, as you said, high Wp so it's not the ideal target for this. Also I'm not 100% sure if going so hard in hand attack without Puppets is a good idea versus a crew able to field a gunline... 

Maybe diversify the threats. Some posible general changes

• Doppleganger for Hinamatsu: Both have a Lure, but Hinamatsu is better to go toe to toe if needed (and his attack is decent for the agent)
• Doppleganger for Angel Eyes: No lure, but able to gunline in a pinch.
• False Witness for Changeling: More commands.

Good luck!