Big Brain Brin calculating the possibilities cost

[wizuriel]

For anyone that doesn't follow Facebook Alexanderiel Lam noticed something very interesting with BBB. The discard 10 cards for calculating the possibilities is a cost of the abilitity so when BBB uses this he actually discards the 10 cards first, then flips to see if the action passes and the card used to cast remains In Conflict until the action is fully resolved and can not be shuffled back (guessing cheated card also)

 

I've been playing this wrong for a long time

 

 

 

[solkan]

26 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

For anyone that doesn't follow Facebook Alexanderiel Lam noticed something very interesting with BBB. The discard 10 cards for calculating the possibilities is a cost of the abilitity so when BBB uses this he actually discards the 10 cards first, then flips to see if the action passes and the card used to cast remains In Conflict until the action is fully resolved and can not be shuffled back (guessing cheated card also)

Yeah, the "discard the top ten cards of this model's Fate Deck" is the cost of the action.  

But where do you get the idea that the cards would be stuck in the conflict somehow?

The process is:

• Discard the top card of the fate deck.  Repeat this ten times.
• Perform a simple duel.  7 v 14.  Any cards used in that process (cheated or flipped) get discard as part of the duel process)
• In Step 5, If the duel succeeded, then choose up to three cards in this model's Discard Pile and shuffle them back into the fate deck.  Then draw a card.
• If the duel succeeded, and you declared the Master Plan trigger, follow those instructions in Step 6.

Edit:  For the record, "the effect that caused the card to be flipped" is the duel.

[Clement]

4 minutes ago, solkan said:

But where do you get the idea that the cards would be stuck in the conflict somehow?

The process is:

• Discard the top card of the fate deck.  Repeat this ten times.
• Perform a simple duel.  7 v 14.  Any cards used in that process (cheated or flipped) get discard as part of the duel process)
• In Step 5, If the duel succeeded, then choose up to three cards in this model's Discard Pile and shuffle them back into the fate deck.  Then draw a card.
• If the duel succeeded, and you declared the Master Plan trigger, follow those instructions in Step 6.

The logic is, I think, based on the definition of the conflict (pdf pg 8 )

Quote

Cards that are currently in use are considered to be in the Conflict, a clear area somewhere on the table. All information on cards in the Conflict is public knowledge.
If multiple cards are added to the Conflict as the result of Fate Modifiers, only one card is placed into the Conflict the others are discarded.
Once the effect that caused a card to be flipped is resolved, the card is discarded.

The action is the thing that caused the card to flip, so it doesn't make it to the discard pile until the action resolves.

 

[Rosskov]

There  have been lots of complaints about BBB. I another thread I agreed he probably needed a subtle nerf but I have been playing this wrong to date. 

 

Properly played I think it is a significant impact on the model to the extent that it is actually sitting where it should be for its cost. 

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Clement said:

The logic is, I think, based on the definition of the conflict (pdf pg 8 )

The action is the thing that caused the card to flip, so it doesn't make it to the discard pile until the action resolves.

 

The duel is the effect that caused the card to be flipped.  Otherwise any attack action with a damage flip would have at minimum 2 active conflicts for the attacking player.

[Clement]

29 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The duel is the effect that caused the card to be flipped.  Otherwise any attack action with a damage flip would have at minimum 2 active conflicts for the attacking player.

I'm not entirely sure I buy the logic either, for the reason you outline.  It shouldn't matter though except in a few VERY specific scenarios though.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Clement said:

I'm not entirely sure I buy the logic either, for the reason you outline.  It shouldn't matter though except in a few VERY specific scenarios though.

It matters a lot to the Old Ways, since that would mean you can use the same card to attack twice if it doesn't get discarded until after resolving the action.

[Clement]

7 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

It matters a lot to the Old Ways, since that would mean you can use the same card to attack twice if it doesn't get discarded until after resolving the action.

Does it?  By this interpretation the card you put into the conflict via Old Ways goes to the bottom of the discard pile after resolving the first action, so it won't be where you can get at it for the second action.

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Clement said:

Does it?  By this interpretation the card you put into the conflict via Old Ways goes to the bottom of the discard pile after resolving the first action, so it won't be where you can get at it for the second action.

You old ways in the card you used in the first attack for the second attack, not using the old ways on the same card twice.

[Clement]

16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You old ways in the card you used in the first attack for the second attack, not using the old ways on the same card twice.

I think I'm just dense, but I'm not sure I get what you're saying.   Spelling it out to make sure because this is bugging me.

Under the "traditional" understanding of how cards leave the conflict, the attack duel card leaves the conflict when the duel is completed, but BEFORE the effects of the duel are applied (so step C.2.d.VI of detailed timing).  Those effects include the damage flip.   So after the first action, the discard pile has the attack flip card below the damage flip card.

Under this "new" understanding of how cards leave the conflict, the attack duel card leaves the conflict when the whole action is completed, so AFTER the effects of the duel are applied (I guess step C.2.f?)  That would be *after* the damage flip is done.  So now the discard pile has the attack flip *above* the damage flip.

That would be a big change indeed.

[Adran]

I'm not sure I follow what people think happens, or even how they played it when they misplayed it. 

If you cheat in a duel, you replace the card in the conflict with the one you cheated in, so you only have 1 card in the conflict at a time. You have to clear the conflict after the duel is finished before you resolve the action effects, because we can't resolve the damage flip if you still have another card in the conflict. 

[wizuriel]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure I follow what people think happens, or even how they played it when they misplayed it. 

If you cheat in a duel, you replace the card in the conflict with the one you cheated in, so you only have 1 card in the conflict at a time. You have to clear the conflict after the duel is finished before you resolve the action effects, because we can't resolve the damage flip if you still have another card in the conflict. 

A lot of people (myself included) missed the discard was a cost. They would use Intuition to put a 7+ on top of the deck, perform the duel and then discard the card then discard 10 cards. 

[ShinChan]

14 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

A lot of people (myself included) missed the discard was a cost. They would use Intuition to put a 7+ on top of the deck, perform the duel and then discard the card then discard 10 cards. 

Same here! This changes a couple of things about how I'm going to play the model  

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

A lot of people (myself included) missed the discard was a cost. They would use Intuition to put a 7+ on top of the deck, perform the duel and then discard the card then discard 10 cards. 

Cheers, that makes sense as to why it actually makes a difference. 

[Mxbedlam]

Worth noting this effects Wong's Up In Space as well. If you Black Joker the flip that marker is gone baby.

[wizuriel]

56 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Worth noting this effects Wong's Up In Space as well. If you Black Joker the flip that marker is gone baby.

Would that make it Lost in Space???

[Scoffer]

2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Would that make it Lost in Space???

More like Lost at Launch