TFW lucius discussion

[4thstringer]

Just opening this up for our first master deep dive.  My favorite part was when he described elite as "glassy but not cannony".   

The episode didn't have a lot of "oh I have to do that" for me, but still definitely got me thinking.  Great ep.

I'll put discussion of the second part in a different threads.

[Legislat]

Great episode.

I dont really agree with the whole keyword frenzy though. I dont quite value investigators so much. I generally tend to avoid models that require help to position themselves. They do so themselves for other models but... Reid at least has some decent questions to ask.

I am honestly dissapointed for not mentioning Phiona. She just solves so many issues with survivability of the key models. She is benefiting so hard from all those markers laid out by lawyers obey and 'Bring It' is pure gold sometimes.

[Rufess]

Had left Guild on the early state during beta (when Following Orders not yet have restriction and Agent stops cheating in all opposite duel), and this episode actually makes me want to come back just for Lucius.

Surprised that they have not mentioned any OoK hiring. So Lucius no longer need Executioner nor Guardian to handle the front line? 

[Legislat]

16 minutes ago, Rufess said:

So Lucius no longer need Executioner nor Guardian to handle the front line? 

He is totally fine without them. As long as there is a Pale Rider in a crew :).

[Gongjin]

I'm interested in the Lucius vs. Nellie talk. Is it worth owning both, or do they cover too many of the same bases?

[Ogid]

Agree, I liked it. Good insight in some of obscure mechanics of the crew like the importance of the hand management, the good condition removal, AP funneling... I play NVB so hearing the combos with Nellie and Grimwell was also interesting.

About some of the things I expected them to cover but that were left aside: I'm a bit surprised they didn't mention Mimic copying also the suit and the potential of that with some of the models. Lawyers are great, but so are Changelings and those got only a quick mention. And I also expected a bit more of focus in potential OOK picks, but I guess that would have taken too much time to cover well. Overal a good episode.

[theamazingmrg]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

About some of the things I expected them to cover but that were left aside: I'm a bit surprised they didn't mention Mimic copying also the suit and the potential of that with some of the models. 

Yeah, that still feels completely wrong to me.  If they didn't want Fate Modifiers and Suits to be considered part of stats they shouldn't include them under the Stat heading on the card!  Definitely one I'm looking forward to the FAQ for!

 

It was a great Deep Dive though.  

[Ogid]

34 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

Yeah, that still feels completely wrong to me.  If they didn't want Fate Modifiers and Suits to be considered part of stats they shouldn't include them under the Stat heading on the card!  Definitely one I'm looking forward to the FAQ for!

I honestly don't mind it being one way or the other as long as it's balanced. The wording (and other mimic-like abilities copying also the suit) right now points toward the suit/modifiers remains (imo); but with how much this is being discussed (it literaly pops up in every Lucius Thread), I agree a FAQ about it would come in handy.

[DuBlanck]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I also expected a bit more of focus in potential OOK picks

Naturally a limit of the time/format, but I agree - there's a load of non-versatile OOK picks that don't come up in these Deep Dives (regardless of the Master at hand) that often bear discussion.

It might just be a factor of the game still being relatively fresh - there are phat stax of models to be tested, and I doubt many people have really stringently tested even half the available combinations.

Things like the combo of False Witness feeding an Investigator and Field Reporter can be tasty, for example, but that's a reasonably expensive chunk that needs very specific circumstances to work well.

[extremor]

first of all, i really like this Episode. I already listened to it twice.

Jesse said it would be usual for a lucius Crew to draw about 10 Cards per turn. I was wondering, is it really like that.

Yes of course I can use command-chains like lucius command the changeling who commands lucius who commands lawyer who commands investigator/another lawyer/false witness....

Do you really play like that? And does that make any kind of sense on the board? Or how do you draw 10+ Cards a turn?

 

[theamazingmrg]

32 minutes ago, extremor said:

first of all, i really like this Episode. I already listened to it twice.

Jesse said it would be usual for a lucius Crew to draw about 10 Cards per turn. I was wondering, is it really like that.

Yes of course I can use command-chains like lucius command the changeling who commands lucius who commands lawyer who commands investigator/another lawyer/false witness....

Do you really play like that? And does that make any kind of sense on the board? Or how do you draw 10+ Cards a turn?

 

Ordering other models about increases the threat range of your crew.  Instead of one model getting 2AP, it can potentially get 5-6 if ordered by other models as well, all the while the ordering models stay back out of harms way.  If that model is Agent 46, then things should hopefully be dying! It's both one of the reasons I really want to try playing as Lucius and one of the reasons I think I'll need to set aside a long time for that game!  the chaining could get time-consuming!

 

The thing with the 10+ cards a  turn though is that its not all going to be from Following Orders.  Obviously that will contribute a few cards to your hand, but there's also:

• Alan Reid's Nefarious Pact Ability and Surge Trigger on "One More Question!"
• Guild Lawyer's Tools for the Job Ability and Surge trigger on Impassioned Defense
• Investigator's Remove Evidence Ability and Interrogate Action
• Lucius' Mastermind Ability and Misinformation Action

2 Guild Lawyer's and Alan Reid is three cards a turn without doing anything else and requires no setup at all.  Two Obeys off Lucius and 1 from each of the two Guild Lawyer's is another 4 cards from Following Orders.  Getting 3+ more cards on top of that doesn't seem like much of a stretch from there.

[extremor]

5 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Ordering other models about increases the threat range of your crew.  Instead of one model getting 2AP, it can potentially get 5-6 if ordered by other models as well, all the while the ordering models stay back out of harms way.  If that model is Agent 46, then things should hopefully be dying! It's both one of the reasons I really want to try playing as Lucius and one of the reasons I think I'll need to set aside a long time for that game!  the chaining could get time-consuming!

Yes, that's correct. And that's one mayor strenght of Lucius, which is anoying my opponents to the max. 

The thing with the 10+ cards a  turn though is that its not all going to be from Following Orders.  Obviously that will contribute a few cards to your hand, but there's also:

• Alan Reid's Nefarious Pact Ability and Surge Trigger on "One More Question!"
• Guild Lawyer's Tools for the Job Ability and Surge trigger on Impassioned Defense
• Investigator's Remove Evidence Ability and Interrogate Action
• Lucius' Mastermind Ability and Misinformation Action

Tools for the job is no card draw imo but it definitely is a part of "hand-sculpting" 😄

2 Guild Lawyer's and Alan Reid is three cards a turn without doing anything else and requires no setup at all.  Two Obeys off Lucius and 1 from each of the two Guild Lawyer's is another 4 cards from Following Orders.  Getting 3+ more cards on top of that doesn't seem like much of a stretch from there.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I played Lucius a lot recently (~15-20 games) and I drew around 8-9 cards each round, but playing him as a neverborn master with 2x ancient packt on minions, which let me draw 2 of the 8-9 cards... therefore I was wondering, since I don't use these "chains of command"... 

what about the others?

[Ogid]

22 minutes ago, extremor said:

what about the others?

Jesse seems to like Lawyers and Investigators so I guess he is used to play very in keyword Lucius (which, aside for time concerns, is probably why they didn't talk much about OOK picks). That kind of list has a higher card draw; specially if not all the AP is used to make Agent 46 hammer the other team.

Aside for the tricks and triggers commented above:

• Lucius will get 3 cards in his turn with his commands if no OOK/versatile model is commanded.
• Mastermind may give 1 or 2 extra cards in the turn, more if there is a huge difference between both crews or Lucius is facing a summoner/Qi and Gong or something like that.
• Lawyers obeying Investigators/FW get 1 card.
• Allan Reid (if included) has Nepharious Pact (1 card).
• Investigators using scheme markers drop by a Laywer (when he was obeyed) / FW can get 1 extra card.
• Changelings commanding the Scribe can get another card.
• The rider with the 4 ram trigger may give a lot of card draw one particular turn.
• There are some convoluted chains to cicle cards like Lucius -> Laywer -> Changeling -> Scribe for 3 cards (but I'm not sure if that's worth or not, it'd need a 5, 9 and 7 in this one for example)

With all of the above plus some surge triggers is not hard to believe he is drawing around 10 each turn.

[extremor]

OK, the deep dive gave me some new ideas. Who has ever tried a "Extreme Hand Attack"?

I opened up a thread in Neverborn, maybe you want to take a look and leave a comment/suggestion?

 lucius-extreme-hand-attack-list

[Gaston]

2 hours ago, extremor said:

OK, the deep dive gave me some new ideas. Who has ever tried a "Extreme Hand Attack"?

I opened up a thread in Neverborn, maybe you want to take a look and leave a comment/suggestion?

 lucius-extreme-hand-attack-list

Did it in NB with Pandora as she can bake in Crows for Execute trigger. Have yet to in Guild bc time and collection limitations, but I'll get there. 

[LeperColony]

They were pretty inconsistent on their Upgrades opinions.  At first one of the guests said LLC was essentially an auto-take on their Agent 46/Pale Rider ball of death.  Then later they both claimed to take it only occasionally.

I also disagree that Guild upgrades are the worst in the game.  Have they not seen Outcast?  

[Dark Reaper]

8 hours ago, LeperColony said:

They were pretty inconsistent on their Upgrades opinions.  At first one of the guests said LLC was essentially an auto-take on their Agent 46/Pale Rider ball of death.  Then later they both claimed to take it only occasionally.

Two different discussions here, regarding upgrades in a Lucius crew and upgrades generally. 😊

[Dark Reaper]

On 1/22/2020 at 2:05 PM, Legislat said:

I am honestly dissapointed for not mentioning Phiona. She just solves so many issues with survivability of the key models. She is benefiting so hard from all those markers laid out by lawyers obey and 'Bring It' is pure gold sometimes.

I can only speak for myself here, but I honestly didn't think about Phiona. Sure looks interesting though!

[admiralvorkraft]

Outcasts feel like they're similar - in that Servant is good and I honestly can't remember what the others do, that's how relevant they are.

Compared to how game changing 10T/Arcanist/Resser upgrades are... I wouldn't mind seeing all the upgrades get adjusted.

[Yore Huckleberry]

On 1/22/2020 at 9:30 AM, Gongjin said:

I'm interested in the Lucius vs. Nellie talk. Is it worth owning both, or do they cover too many of the same bases?

I think you can rep either one and probably get through the same sets of strats (and MOSTLY the same schemes) if you're on a budget. But there are places where one is better than the other. I'd agree with the podcast that Lucius has a bit more offense than Nellie, although either can, yknow, grab a peacekeeper and pale rider, so.

Lucius is probably slightly better than Nellie at playing/preventing Plant Explosives (although shoving enemies back with the Printing Press is a lot of fun), while Nellie is probably slightly better at Corrupted Idols, particularly because she heals 2 per interact, so it's pretty easy to position so that you shift an idol 4" without taking damage on her, and still control an area of interaction with her Exclusive Interview bubble.

I also think the podcast is correct that Nellie can get one thing to move really well (her bonus action is great), while Lucius can move a whole crew around a bit at a time.

[theamazingmrg]

On 1/24/2020 at 5:13 PM, extremor said:

Tools for the job is no card draw imo but it definitely is a part of "hand-sculpting" 😄

Tools for the Job is most definitely card draw.  It's not card advantage though, which is a different thing entirely.  The point being made was that actually getting 10+ cards from the deck into the hand where they can be used is relatively easy in a Lucius Keyword crew. 

On 1/24/2020 at 5:13 PM, extremor said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I played Lucius a lot recently (~15-20 games) and I drew around 8-9 cards each round, but playing him as a neverborn master with 2x ancient packt on minions, which let me draw 2 of the 8-9 cards... therefore I was wondering, since I don't use these "chains of command"... 

what about the others?

And I think you've answered your own question here.  If you aren't using the Obey chains then you aren't getting the maximum out of your card draw.