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Jack Daw, reduce damage, Corrupted Idols


asrian

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Jack Daw walks up to a Corrupted Idol, takes 3 irreducible damage to move it 3", discards to change the damage to 1. Does the Idol then get placed 3" away or 1"? 

Corrupted Idol rules reads, "The Interacting model may then Drop the Strategy Marker anywhere within X" of its current location, not into base contact with a model or Impassable Terrain, where X is equal to the amount of damage suffered by the Action."

 

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21 minutes ago, asrian said:

Jack Daw walks up to a Corrupted Idol, takes 3 irreducible damage to move it 3", discards to change the damage to 1. Does the Idol then get placed 3" away or 1"? 

Corrupted Idol rules reads, "The Interacting model may then Drop the Strategy Marker anywhere within X" of its current location, not into base contact with a model or Impassable Terrain, where X is equal to the amount of damage suffered by the Action."

 

Jack Daw suffers 1 damage, so it moves 1".  

Because, from Damage, page 24 of the rules PDF:

Quote

If a game effect references the amount of damage suffered, it is referring to the amount of damage suffered after damage reduction.

 

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57 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Jack Daw's ability isn't damage reduction.

This is correct, but I think that's not the significant part of @solkan's definition -- the "damage suffered" is the reference point for Corrupted Idols when it checks for the distance, and Jack Daw's ability actually changes the value of "damage suffered," as follows:

"When this model 'suffers damage,' it may discard a card. If it does so, the damage this model suffers is changed to 1 irreducible damage."

 

So Jack Daw's ability literally changes the value of the reference point for the Corrupted Idols resulting toss, and they're going to be the same. If the Daw player wants to throw it farther (with Daw), then s/he will have to take more than 1 damage on Daw to do it.

 

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11 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

This is correct, but I think that's not the significant part of @solkan's definition -- the "damage suffered" is the reference point for Corrupted Idols when it checks for the distance, and Jack Daw's ability actually changes the value of "damage suffered," as follows:

"When this model 'suffers damage,' it may discard a card. If it does so, the damage this model suffers is changed to 1 irreducible damage."

 

So Jack Daw's ability literally changes the value of the reference point for the Corrupted Idols resulting toss, and they're going to be the same. If the Daw player wants to throw it farther (with Daw), then s/he will have to take more than 1 damage on Daw to do it.

 

Yeah, I'm not disputing the end result, just the process to get there. Probably should've clarified that.

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The damage reduction topic was kind of beaten to death here: https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147628-drink-blood/

I don't think going full RAW helps here so I'd go with @solkan reading in this one; the intent (imo) is inches = final damage.

In general the damage/healing needs some extra clarifications; I could see someone discussing it moves 3'' and it'd be hard to debunk that.

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16 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 

I don't think going full RAW helps here

; I could see someone discussing it moves 3'' and it'd be hard to debunk that.

I think the argument above is a very solid rules as written argument for 1", so I can't see a valid argument for 3".

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1 hour ago, Ogid said:

The damage reduction topic was kind of beaten to death here: https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147628-drink-blood/

I don't think going full RAW helps here so I'd go with @solkan reading in this one; the intent (imo) is inches = final damage.

In general the damage/healing needs some extra clarifications; I could see someone discussing it moves 3'' and it'd be hard to debunk that.

It's pretty easy to debunk it, because as was quoted, Jack Daw is changing how much damage he suffers. He's not reducing it or ignoring it, but actually changing the value that the game sees as how much he suffers.

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The entire thread I linked above (5 pages) was a discusion about something along this lines (what "damage after damage reduction" means); it only take one player defending that changing damage isn't damage reduction and that the only value the strategy is refering is that value (before changing it to 1) to start all it over again.

As said above; I agree it's the final damage, but the rules about this are far from bullet proof.

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9 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The entire thread I linked above (5 pages) was a discusion about something along this lines (what "damage after damage reduction" means); it only take one player defending that changing damage isn't damage reduction and that the only value the strategy is refering is that value (before changing it to 1) to start all it over again.

As said above; I agree it's the final damage, but the rules about this are far from bullet proof.

It's not really the same thing. There are 2-3 different damage values the game looks at depending on which side of that debate you fall on. There's damage a model suffers(value A), damage the model suffered(value B), and the amount of health the model loses(Value C). Regardless of it you think C=B or not, this ability is taking value A, and changing it from one number to a different number. There really isn't any argument that B>A is ever a situation that can arise. 

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8 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

It's not really the same thing. There are 2-3 different damage values the game looks at depending on which side of that debate you fall on. There's damage a model suffers(value A), damage the model suffered(value B), and the amount of health the model loses(Value C). Regardless of it you think C=B or not, this ability is taking value A, and changing it from one number to a different number. There really isn't any argument that B>A is ever a situation that can arise. 

Not exactly, Jack ability changes value B, not A (which is more a theorical distinction that something that really matters taking in count the changed damage is irreducible). But at that point a player could argue the game is telling him to take Value B (in case his opinion is C=/=B), not C (which was the point of the above thread).

I'm glad we are all in the same page, but the thread I had to link more times is one where I heard this "Don't worry, it's all very clear". Don't underestimate players lol.

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19 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Not exactly, Jack ability changes value B, not A (which is more a theorical distinction that something that really matters taking in count the changed damage is irreducible). But at that point a player could argue the game is telling him to take Value B (in case his opinion is C=/=B), not C (which was the point of the above thread).

I'm glad we are all in the same page, but the thread I had to link more times is one where I heard this "Don't worry, it's all very clear". Don't underestimate players lol.

He's not changing Value B, because the damage he changes it to is irreducible. There's no point in calling damage irreducible if it is past the point of reduction even being able to modify it.

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20 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

He's not changing Value B, because the damage he changes it to is irreducible. There's no point in calling damage irreducible if it is past the point of reduction even being able to modify it.

I just checked abilities with the same wording (When this model suffers damage...") to see if it could apply to A or B:

  • Hard to kill: It may work with both. A or B
  • Undying: It may work with both. A or B
  • Playing with Fire: Before damage reduction (explicitly stated). A
  • Flaming Body: It's damage reduction. A
  • Ice Shield: It's damage reduction. A
  • Pumped up: It's damage reduction. A
  • Infused Body: It's damage reduction. A

The abilities refering to B use "After this model suffers damage" (Black Blood, Hard Knock Life, Bloated Stench...)

It makes sense, for consistency with the other wordings Hard to Kill and Undying seem to refer to A. So I agree now, with this logic this issue is much more solid than the Drink Blood one.

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