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Killing, triggers, rules


Wirt

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36 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Hi! I'd say it does. The trigger was declared so it'd try to resolve.

The "Push the target..." part is ignored as the target is no longer in play, but the second part (push+attack) doesn't need the target, so it can be done without it in play.

The rules say differently.

It's an After Succeeding trigger:

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After succeeding: These Triggers happen after the Action is complete, but only if the model declaring the Trigger was successful in the duel and is still in play. If the Trigger has a target and that target is no longer in play, the Trigger has no effect.

The trigger has a target, because of the words "Push the target 4" away from this model."  That makes the entire trigger have no effect if the target has been removed from play by the time you get there.

This was, as I understand it, done deliberately by the person responsible for that rules change.  

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42 minutes ago, solkan said:

The trigger has a target, because of the words "Push the target 4" away from this model."  That makes the entire trigger have no effect if the target has been removed from play by the time you get there.

This was, as I understand it, done deliberately by the person responsible for that rules change.

Good point... Checking it more closely that bit does seem to deny the whole trigger, not just the the part related to the target... good to know.

Do you recall why this work like this in triggers but not in actions/abilities? I mean ignore the whole trigger instead of just the parts that can't be played.

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It's a bit sad if you've got the suit for a trigger with multiple effects that you can't use the effects that would still be valid.

@solkan Do you know if the text for shove aside changed after this rule was changed? Im currious if "Then," is always intended to only happen if the precdeding text happened.

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22 minutes ago, diki said:

It's a bit sad if you've got the suit for a trigger with multiple effects that you can't use the effects that would still be valid.

@solkan Do you know if the text for shove aside changed after this rule was changed? Im currious if "Then," is always intended to only happen if the precdeding text happened.

I don't know how far back the rule for triggers not happing is a model died goes, but its in every beta copy of the rules that I still have.  (As is a functionally the same trigger).

 

The M2E version replaced damaging the initial target with charging a new target, so also wouldn't kill the initial target.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, diki said:

@solkan Do you know if the text for shove aside changed after this rule was changed? Im currious if "Then," is always intended to only happen if the precdeding text happened.

That's not why Shove Aside doesn't work, it's because the trigger timing rules say that if the trigger has a target and that target is dead then the trigger fails. Since it doesn't make a distinction for a trigger which has multiple effects, we're left with the entire trigger failing.

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4 minutes ago, Wirt said:

maybe I'm wrong, but in my vision “target” it’s not a choice of purpose, but an indication of who can be pushed away, the trigger’s target is a miniature that performs “shove aside”

Target is a specific word in Malifaux rules. So the use of it in the trigger means that the trigger has a target, and that target is the model that was hit.  You could re-write the trigger to not use target (such as change it to "models damaged by this action are pushed 4"") but they haven't.

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2 minutes ago, Adran said:

Target is a specific word in Malifaux rules. So the use of it in the trigger means that the trigger has a target, and that target is the model that was hit.  You could re-write the trigger to not use target (such as change it to "models damaged by this action are pushed 4"") but they haven't.

understood thanks

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