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4thstringer

Best gun in malifaux?

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So I've been thinking about agent 46, and who I could copy with him.  That got me thinking about the guns we can bring.   I'm going to limit this to non master, otherwise I think perdita has it.

Mentally my list is Melissa kore, Santiago, riflemen, Pathfinder, lone Marshall, and monster hunters.

Who am I leaving out that you noticed?

I tended towards 14" ranges (we have a bunch) or ones with particularly good triggers.   Kore makes it for severe 6. 

Monster hunters for stunning strike, and Santiago for an incredible spread of triggers.   

Edit: Sam Hopkins has to get mentioned for rapid fire and ricochet.

So who do you think?  Am I missing anyone? Is there a value pick I'm missing?

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9 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

*cough*

How soon we forget... 😢

I can't include ryle since the two times I used him absolutely ruined the fun of my opponent.  Plus the governor general would have my head for it.

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1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

So I've been thinking about agent 46, and who I could copy with him.  That got me thinking about the guns we can bring.   I'm going to limit this to non master, otherwise I think perdita has it.

Mentally my list is Melissa kore, Santiago, riflemen, Pathfinder, lone Marshall, and monster hunters.

Who am I leaving out that you noticed?

I tended towards 14" ranges (we have a bunch) or ones with particularly good triggers.   Kore makes it for severe 6. 

Monster hunters for stunning strike, and Santiago for an incredible spread of triggers.   

Edit: Sam Hopkins has to get mentioned for rapid fire and ricochet.

So who do you think?  Am I missing anyone? Is there a value pick I'm missing?

Nico.  Oh god Nico...

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I tried a gunline Lucius list once with rifleman, Pale Rider, agent 46 and a doppleganger as the main shooters and it was nasty! really liked this playstyle! (my opponent a lot less ahah!)

 

Also I really like triggers for the rifleman! The execute trigger really scares people too! Agent and dopple copying it, this gave me a lot of 14'' execute and my opponent used a lot of ressource for it!

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The best guns in the faction are clearly the Thrall or the Executioner. Have you seen those arms!?

More seriously, you have some very good options and really depend on what you want in the crew; all the option mentioned are good.

Other niche options:

  • Niño, if the Agent 47 has the expert marksman upgrade: The agent will copy the suit and will get the trigger from the upgrade so this will be a 14'', 2/3/4, 6:+flip:ToS-Tome: with a built-in Armor piercing trigger.
  • Frontiersman: Not the best gun but it's a cheap model and has the only puncture trigger in a gun.
  • Exorcists: Very good versus summoners.
  • Hunter/Peacekeeper Harpoon gun: Worse for damage but is also kind of a Lure that hurts.

The Expert Marksman upgrade is also worth to mention as it should give an extra trigger to the agent (if attached to the agent, it seems to not work if it's attached to the other model). Check this thread.

An extra suggestion that can be fun to try is the Death Marshal Recruiter.

His ranged attack is worse than others already listed, but still decent when copied by the Agent thanks to the critical strike trigger. The best thing is he open an extra interesting attack path. He can attack buried models so Agent 46 can copy Pine box and do Analyze Weakness getting On your Heels (or reach it throught Pouncing strike if the anti-armor isn't necessary) and bury an activated model with it. Then proceed to assassinate that buried target with no armor with the DMR and Lucius bossing him with very little counterplay from the other player. He is a minion so easier to command just with Changelings and the recruitment aura is good because Lucius usually have a lot of minions around and a lot of cards. And if other models able to bury and act independent of the main bubble like the Emissary are hired, they can bury models away from the core of the crew that can be then proceed to be attacked by it.

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I like Lone Marshal for the stat 7 and two solid triggers, though the execute from Riflemen seems pretty solid too. I’d be less worried about getting puncture from frontiersmen since you have decent odds of just winning the damage spread via your cheat/no-cheat advantage.

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Forget about the original stat, that's mostly for Agent 46 mimic.

The map may also modify your choice. Riflemen's clockwork rifle ignore cover, Pathfinder and Lone marshall's long carbine (2/4/5) ignore concealment

In a Basse team, you also have access to Crocket's long carbine with coordinated attack. Who said that Reichart do not have enough AP for attacks ? :)

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On 1/10/2020 at 12:05 PM, Ogid said:

Niño, if the Agent 47 has the expert marksman upgrade: The agent will copy the suit and will get the trigger from the upgrade so this will be a 14'', 2/3/4, 6:+flip:ToS-Tome: with a built-in Armor piercing trigger.

He doesnt get to copy the tomes suit as that is part of Ninos stat. It says the stat for this attack is equal to the stat for this action. So its unsuited stat 6.

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8 minutes ago, katadder said:

He doesnt get to copy the tomes suit as that is part of Ninos stat. It says the stat for this attack is equal to the stat for this action. So its unsuited stat 6.

That was also my initial impression but it seems it doesn't work like that: Stat, suit and fate modifier are 3 different things listed together (unfortunately listed under a headline "stat" which make it confusing). Check this thread:

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37 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I'm pretty sure there's going to be an errata regarding this point. I highly doubt the design intention was to copy suits and modifiers.

Other mimic-like abilities like Just like you! or Upstage does copy suits and modifiers, it's not that unlikely that if the base ability has the suit/modifier, the intent is copying the ability as it is but modifying just the number (which also fits the mimic theme or imiting the ability as it is but better)

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33 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I'm pretty sure there's going to be an errata regarding this point. I highly doubt the design intention was to copy suits and modifiers. 

The rule book is pretty clear on separating the three. The only thing suggesting otherwise is the graphical layout of the cards. 

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49 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

There honestly aren't all that many suits or +s to copy in Guild anyway. 

Appart for Niño are a few worth to note. The Jury has a suited obey for a Zoraidish list, Papa Loco isn't the best one but if it's included for Blow it to hell, it may come in handy (but in this case the agent will need a LLC and Shielded), Domador de Cadaveres has also decent suited actions (specially versus RES) and Thrall's fist become also scary with the suit.

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Yes, the Jury is the most interesting one. Nino is 8SS OOK for a built in mask and a + on a 2/3/4 gun, which is so wonky and corner case that it will almost never be a good choice with the agent. If I really wanted a 0" attack, I would probably copy a garrote as well. The thralls I agree could be pretty scary. Sonnia as a second to Lucius is actually very good due to this, with her summoning and Lucius' issue command as well as the Agent's Mimic.

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I agree these are niche, but that's the idea; picking them in the right game.

Niño could be useful when facing mass armored crews, that gun is 14'' and it saves one AP per target not having to do Analice Weakness (which also has a shorter range, 10''). Plus once per activation Family values can still be used for extra card draw or Focused in Niño. Also is interesting to note that Papa Loco costs the same than Niño, so both can use "A por el" in each other; that's a nice pair to hire together. For example versus Colette with her Coryphees Niño's gun could work wonders ignoring Armor and having also a positive flip just in case the Agent is distracted; a rifleman's clockwork rifle in this case could also be a good choice, but it requires more resources per shoot (with a severe and a trigger one corpyhee can be one shooted with that one tho) and it also require extra AP from other models to remove Distracted.

Papa Loco one could come in handy if he is in the crew for the markel removal (it's kind of a min damage 4 attack after all), but I won't hire him specifically for that one. However the Agent is decent with range 0 attacks with "On your heels" and Pouncing strike.

Just in case, Mimic cannot copy Master's abilities; the summoning part is great with him and Sonnia is a good beater tho.

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Lucius can remove distracted while commanding, so I really don't see the value of bringing in an 8SS model to get a 2/3/4 gun, even with the suit. This smells way too much of all eggs in one basket approach for me. For a single soulstone more (Nino+EM), I could get the PR. Also remember that Agent's AW is irresistible and will almost always work.

 

I am fully aware that Mimic cannot copy master abilities, nor summon abilities for that matter.

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18 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

Lucius can remove distracted while commanding, so I really don't see the value of bringing in an 8SS model to get a 2/3/4 gun, even with the suit. This smells way too much of all eggs in one basket approach for me. For a single soulstone more (Nino+EM), I could get the PR. Also remember that Agent's AW is irresistible and will almost always work.

The value is Niño has a kit that counters well what the other crew brings.

Lucius can remove conditions for a suit, other models can ignore armor for a suit and Focused also give :+flip; but suits could not be in the hand (or with the right value), Focused cost actions or extra hires and SS aren't infinite. The :+flipis also valuable as it counters Distracted, Concealment, Serene countenance and the like and if these aren't present then it let the model flip higher; having the high cards avaliable for other things. Versus an Armor+2 model that's is equivalent to a 4/5/6 damage track that doesn't ignore armor. Analyce Weakness is great but it's 10'', if those models are away then another extra 2 AP are needed to move and use it (and if distracted or concealment is there, it'd need Focused or that condition removed before). The pale rider is good, but imagine that Colette player brings Coryphees or Swarms with Diesel and just focus in scoring; the pale rider/agent will need Focused to not being at :-flipin both the analyze weakness and the attacks.

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Have you ever played with this, or is it something you are simply making up as you go along? There is of course a possibility that I am completely wrong here, but I have played Lucius more times than I can count in M3E and have never felt like I needed Nino at all. We have guns that ignore concealment if that is really what you need. You can also use AW a fair few times in a Lucius crow, if you really need it to go through.

 

What if your 7 health, 5df, no def-tech enforcer dies to one of those beaters? What do you do then? Nino is also really slow and it will take time to reposition him.

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3 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

Have you ever played with this, or is it something you are simply making up as you go along? There is of course a possibility that I am completely wrong here, but I have played Lucius more times than I can count in M3E and have never felt like I needed Nino at all. We have guns that ignore concealment if that is really what you need. You can also use AW a fair few times in a Lucius crow, if you really need it to go through.

 

What if your 7 health, 5df, no def-tech enforcer dies to one of those beaters? What do you do then? Nino is also really slow and it will take time to reposition him.

I play NVB, he is not avaliable for me with Lucius; but I'd pick him in that scenario if I could (what I've played is Samurais in TT, :+flipguns are neat). Not sure why it triggers you tho, feel free to play whatever works for you; if the pathfinder or the lone marshal gun stonning triggers is what you prefer, they also seem good options.

If an Enforcer in the middle of a bubble crew die to a mele beater, either that player has way bigger problems in that game or have to work in how to position the key models for his crew; and nothing stops that player to hire more than 1 model with a gun to have a backup just in case a mele beatter materialices out of nowhere.

Also to keep defending why I think Nino is legit there: He has from the Shadows so he can get a good head start even without extra movement and can deploy after knowing where the enemy models that you want to shoot are deployed; the agent is the one who will do most of the shooting so even being an enforcer and having trouble obeying him with Lucius it's not that bad (and as you noted above, you don't want to expose him too early in the game because if he is killed the agent loses his gun). The Agent 46 is the one with the upgrade in that game, not Nino, which let that crew hire a secondary gun (like the Rider for example) that will also get the armor piercing trigger (not built in tho) when copied by the agent. On top of that the other triggers are also decent.

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9 hours ago, Angelshard said:

I'm pretty sure there's going to be an errata regarding this point. I highly doubt the design intention was to copy suits and modifiers. 

For it not being the intention they sure seem to have gone out of their way to define the term "stat" to just be the number, when they could have just as easily defined it as "all the junk under the Stat column".

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The Thalarian Queller could also be legit with the agent versus hordes or bubbles... 46 has an easier time than other models reaching moderate/severe damage to get those juicy :blast. And going full gunline and attaching EM to the Agent, he could even ignore armor with those blasts.

Also for being a minion the Thalarian is hard to remove with Arcane Shield, Counterspell and attuned.

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To answer the opening post, the best guns in faction to copy with mimic are IMO the ones with decent range and/or moderates, i.e. Lone Marshal, Santiago, Pale Rider (more for the whole package than the gun), Pathfinder and there is an opening for riflemen due to ranged execute, 14" range and ignoring cover.

 

Therefore, I don't consider a plethora of expensive 2/3/4 weapons worth it, as I would rather play another master or a different flavour of Lucius.

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