Uncontrollable Magic

[Zebo]

We had a doubt in today's game. If Wong uses "Uncontrollable Magic" to center the Shockwave of Fzzzzap! on a friendly Wizz-Bang model, the model suffers 1 damage, but also suffers the effect of Fzzzzap! Shockwave? 

[CD1248]

In the case of Uncontrollable Magic, the model is the generating object of tge pulse, and a pulse never affects the object that generates it. The model will take the 1 damage from Uncontrollable Magic, and nothing else.

[Clement]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

We had a doubt in today's game. If Wong uses "Uncontrollable Magic" to center the Shockwave of Fzzzzap! on a friendly Wizz-Bang model, the model suffers 1 damage, but also suffers the effect of Fzzzzap! Shockwave? 

There was a LOT of discussion around it when 3e first launched, especially when you compare it to the pigapult which has a similar but different wording.  The "consensus" seems to hinge on the use of instead, meaning that you use the wizz-bang model instead of the shockwave marker, so it is not subject to the pulse in the shockwave.

I'm still hoping it gets an official FAQ though.

[DumbLuck]

I would argue that the model still has to take the Shockwaves effects.  The Shockwave section of the rules states, "Any model that the marker touches or that is affected by the (x) must pass the simple duel......" pg 31 .  Since you're just substituting the model as the marker the model is definitely touching "the marker".

[solkan]

6 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

I would argue that the model still has to take the Shockwaves effects.  The Shockwave section of the rules states, "Any model that the marker touches or that is affected by the (x) must pass the simple duel......" pg 31 .  Since you're just substituting the model as the marker the model is definitely touching "the marker".

Among the problems with that is that the rules state that models aren't in base contact with themselves.

 

 

[DumbLuck]

But the rules for shockwaves don't require Base contact.  If the model the shockwave is centered on isn't affected, it would make the wording on the Pigapults trigger sort of point less.  "If the chosen model was a stuffed piglet and it was not killed by this action, it may take the Bacon bomb......"  

The trigger would have no need to say if the model was not killed by the action, as the only damage done by the action is a shockwave.  If the piglet itself was never affected by the shockwave it could never possibly be killed by it.  

Also the abilities above just say the shockwave is centered on the model, it doesn't say the model replaces the shockwave.  So I'd say the model is still touching the shockwave for sure.

[Clement]

49 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

But the rules for shockwaves don't require Base contact.  If the model the shockwave is centered on isn't affected, it would make the wording on the Pigapults trigger sort of point less.  "If the chosen model was a stuffed piglet and it was not killed by this action, it may take the Bacon bomb......"  

The trigger would have no need to say if the model was not killed by the action, as the only damage done by the action is a shockwave.  If the piglet itself was never affected by the shockwave it could never possibly be killed by it.  

Are you arguing that a model is "touching" itself, but is not in base contact with itself?   Because the definition of "base contact" is touching (p.13). 

As we work through this, it's important to point out that Uncontrollable Magic on Wong (what we're theoretically discussing) and Full Load on Pigapult (your example) are NOT actually identical abilities.  They're annoyingly similar abilities, but they do NOT function the same way.  Full Load *does* work the way you describe.  Uncontrollable Magics doesn't.

 

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

But the rules for shockwaves don't require Base contact.  If the model the shockwave is centered on isn't affected, it would make the wording on the Pigapults trigger sort of point less.  "If the chosen model was a stuffed piglet and it was not killed by this action, it may take the Bacon bomb......"  

The trigger would have no need to say if the model was not killed by the action, as the only damage done by the action is a shockwave.  If the piglet itself was never affected by the shockwave it could never possibly be killed by it.  

Also the abilities above just say the shockwave is centered on the model, it doesn't say the model replaces the shockwave.  So I'd say the model is still touching the shockwave for sure.

Wong and the Pigapult don't use the same wording. Wong substitutes the marker for a model. The Pigapult centers the marker on a model.

[DumbLuck]

Uncontrollable Magic:  When this model would drop a shockwave marker, it may instead CENTER that shockwave on a friendly Wizz-Bang model within range.  If it does so, the friendly model suffers 1 damage, and the TN of the Shockwave's resist is increased by +2.

Full Load:  .....Shockwave 2, Mv 15, Damage 2 CENTERED on the chosen model.

The only difference I see between the 2, is one is allowing you to choose whether or not you want to center it on a model and the other you must.

Where in those actions does it state that the model itself becomes the Shockwave marker?  I just says the shockwave must be centered on the target model.  It's just dictating where you must place the marker.  In some cases it breaks the general rules, like allowing you to drop the markers under objects like Ice Pillars.

Also, Page 31 in the Rule book.  "When the Shockwave action is fully resolved, the Marker is removed."  If your model becomes the shockwave marker, are you going to remove it at the end of the action?  There's nothing in those actions that says the shockwave marker gets to stay on the table and the rules state the marker is removed after the action is fully resolved.

This brings up another question. Shockwave markers are 30mm, if you choose to center that shockwave on a model with a 40mm base, will it block line of sight to the surrounding models......

[Ogid]

@DumbLuck got a good point here; both wordings use "center" and the trigger in the piggapult heavily implies the model takes the damage, so I'd say they also get affected in Wong's case.

However I don't think the blocking of LoS part is how it's supposed to work. "Center" probably means the ability wants you to use a shockwave marker with the exact base than the model/game element assuming it's just under it (even if that's not legal like in the Ice Pilar case); that's the safest bet.

It'd be great if those kind of things were defined in a glossary of terms or something similar tho.

[DumbLuck]

I completely agree with Ogid that I think the intent is for the Shockwave in these cases to be the same size as the base of the model targeted.  However the rules state that a Shockwave marker is 30mm and none of these actions actively change the size of the shockwave marker, they only dictate that the marker must be centered on the model (adding benefits if you're willing to risk your own model in the center of the action), so it still leaves some room to question how exactly the actions/abilities should interact with models of larger sizes.  Again, I fully agree the intent is for the pulse to be created 2 inches from the base of the model the shockwave is centered on (the shockwave still being a separate marker and the center model still being affected by the shockwave), but there is room to argue either way.  

[santaclaws01]

9 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

Uncontrollable Magic:  When this model would drop a shockwave marker, it may instead CENTER that shockwave on a friendly Wizz-Bang model within range.  If it does so, the friendly model suffers 1 damage, and the TN of the Shockwave's resist is increased by +2.

Full Load:  .....Shockwave 2, Mv 15, Damage 2 CENTERED on the chosen model.

 

Uncontrollable magic is telling you to not drop a shock wave marker, and instead have the shock wave effect be generated by the model. Full Load is telling you to center the shockwave marker on the model.

 

 

9 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

Where in those actions does it state that the model itself becomes the Shockwave marker?  I just says the shockwave must be centered on the target model.  It's just dictating where you must place the marker.  In some cases it breaks the general rules, like allowing you to drop the markers under objects like Ice Pillars.

Exactly the bit you quoted. "When this model would drop a shockwave marker, it may instead center that shockwave on a friendly Wizz-Bang model" You are doing someone else instead of dropping a shockwave marker.

 

9 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

"When the Shockwave action is fully resolved, the Marker is removed."  If your model becomes the shockwave marker, are you going to remove it at the end of the action?  There's nothing in those actions that says the shockwave marker gets to stay on the table and the rules state the marker is removed after the action is fully resolved.

If there is no shockwave marker, this doesn't matter. It's the exact same as using Mindless Zombies as corpse markers and the mindless zombies having a rule for what happens when the corpse marker would get removed. Or for Shang with shadow markers. Or the Dispatcher for scheme markers. Or any other ability I'm forgetting that allows a model to be treated as a marker and then has some clause for what happens to the model if the marker gets removed by the effect.

 

9 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

This brings up another question. Shockwave markers are 30mm, if you choose to center that shockwave on a model with a 40mm base, will it block line of sight to the surrounding models......

Only if the model it's under is under has an equal or greater Sz value than all the other models that are within range.

[DumbLuck]

The wording of Full load and Wong are exactly the same.  One gives the option for Wong to choose a model to center the shockwave on.  The other, the action must center the shockwave on the target model.  You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist.  The only difference between the two is that Wong has a choice to not center the shockwave on a WIzz-bang model and therefore not receive the benefits of doing so.  Nowhere in Wong's ability does it say "The model may count as the shockwave marker or Wong may treat the model as a shockwave marker.

Also, neither of these say the shockwave is generated by the model, they just say that the shockwave in centered on the model.  The shockwave is generated by the Pigapult or Wong. 

The abilities of the other models you listed:

Shang as far as I can tell has no interaction with Shadow Markers.  It's abilities reference Misaki herself, so you'll need to clarify your reference there.

Walking Dead: When declaring or resolving friendly actions or abilities, this model may count as a corpse marker.  If the corpse marker would be removed, this model is killed and does not drop a corpse marker.

Dispatcher: Friendly Guard models may treat this model as a scheme marker.  If an effect would remove the scheme marker, this model suffers one damage.

In those examples, it explicitly states that the model itself is treated as the object (corpse/scheme marker)  No where in Wong's ability does it state that the model is ever treated as the actual shockwave marker.  It only states that the shockwave must be centered on the model to gain the bonus from the ability.

The fact that the shockwave is "Centered" on the model and not actually generated by the model, makes the model itself subject to the Shockwaves effects. 

[santaclaws01]

30 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

The wording of Full load and Wong are exactly the same.  One gives the option for Wong to choose a model to center the shockwave on.  The other, the action must center the shockwave on the target model.  You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist.  The only difference between the two is that Wong has a choice to not center the shockwave on a WIzz-bang model and therefore not receive the benefits of doing so.  Nowhere in Wong's ability does it say "The model may count as the shockwave marker or Wong may treat the model as a shockwave marker.

They literally aren't. Uncontrollable magic tells you to not drop a shockwave marker and to instead center the shockwave effect on the model(making the model what is generating the shockwave). Full Load tells you to center the shockwave marker on the model.

31 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

Also, neither of these say the shockwave is generated by the model, they just say that the shockwave in centered on the model.  The shockwave is generated by the Pigapult or Wong. 

Shockwaves are generated by shockwave markers, not the model taking the shockwave action.

32 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

Shang as far as I can tell has no interaction with Shadow Markers.  It's abilities reference Misaki herself, so you'll need to clarify your reference there.

Misremembered the specifics of how that ability works.

33 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

In those examples, it explicitly states that the model itself is treated as the object (corpse/scheme marker)  No where in Wong's ability does it state that the model is ever treated as the actual shockwave marker.  It only states that the shockwave must be centered on the model to gain the bonus from the ability.

I never said it does. You're the one who even brought it up in the first place. I was just telling you why your reasoning for that is wrong.

34 minutes ago, DumbLuck said:

The fact that the shockwave is "Centered" on the model and not actually generated by the model, makes the model itself subject to the Shockwaves effects.

A pulse has to be generated by something otherwise they don't work, because models need to have LoS to the generating object for the pulse to affect them. If wong is using uncontrollable magic then he is not dropping a shockwave marker. If no shockwave marker is being dropped that means something else has to be generating the shockwave, and the only possible object that could be doing it is the model that the shockwave is centered on.

[Clement]

And we're back to where we were a few months ago.  Yay.

The thing that makes these two abilities different is that Wong's has you centering the shockwave instead of dropping the marker.  Full Load doesn't have that "instead" which is what the whole thing hinges on.

 

Besides, if we assume that it actually IS putting a 30mm marker in the middle of the model, you've now created exciting new problems where anything with a base larger then 30mm becomes a trap for Wong since it's fundamentally incompatible with his signature power.

 

I'm gonna continue holding out hope for an FAQ

[Ogid]

Why does having a choice make that works differently? When the player makes his choice and is resolving it as centered in a model, both abilities should work the same.

To put an example: Execute and Drain Magic trigger. One make you choose between discard a card a SS or kill the model, the other forces you to discard a card. It doesn't matter why you are discarding the card (choice or forced), you are discarding a card so all rules and interactions apply here exaclty the same. This is a similar case, it doesn't matter what happens prior to that centering, "center" the shockwave in something should work consistently across different abilities imo.

[CD1248]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Why does having a choice make that works differently? When the player makes his choice and is resolving it as centered in a model, both abilities should work the same.

To put an example: Execute and Drain Magic trigger. One make you choose between discard a card a SS or kill the model, the other forces you to discard a card. It doesn't matter why you are discarding the card (choice or forced), you are discarding a card so all rules and interactions apply here exaclty the same. This is a similar case, it doesn't matter what happens prior to that centering, "center" the shockwave in something should work consistently across different abilities imo.

Its because it's telling you to do something INSTEAD of dropping a marker.

If someone says "when you would turn right, instead turn left" you're not turning right anymore.

Plus, as has been discussed, the ability begins to break if a marker is still involved.

[Ogid]

10 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

If someone says "when you would turn right, instead turn left" you're not turning right anymore.

Using that left (center) / right (drop a shockwave) analogy:

Wong ability just turn left (center), but pigapult let you turn left (center) instead of turning right (drop a shockwave). If you decide to turn left (center), you are not turning right (drop a shockwave marker) anymore, so it should work as it you just turn left (center) in the first place.

10 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

Plus, as has been discussed, the ability begins to break if a marker is still involved.

How does it breaks? If it is centered, there is no marker involved in any case.

[santaclaws01]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Using that left (center) / right (drop a shockwave) analogy:

Wong ability just turn left (center), but pigapult let you turn left (center) instead of turning right (drop a shockwave). If you decide to turn left (center), you are not turning right (drop a shockwave marker) anymore, so it should work as it you just turn left (center) in the first place.

Except the Pigapult is still dropping a marker, as it doesn't tell you not to drop one.

 

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

How does it breaks? If it is centered, there is no marker involved in any case.

Because there needs to be an object generating the pulse for the pulse to even work. That leaves either the model or a marker. Since no marker is being dropped, it has to be generated by the model. Since the model is generating the pulse, it can't be affected by the pulse.

[Ogid]

Ah ok, I see that reading now...

It's a bit of a strech imo, having one "centered" meaning a shockwave is created under the model in one ability and in the other meaning the model is the object creating the shockwave doesn't seem likely; for me it has more sense than in "centered" is always the referenced object the element creating the shockwave (and with this reading a 40mm or higher model will block the piggapult shockwave as an actual 30mm shockwave is beng created under the model).

I stand by my above reading, but I can see the other now. Definitely, a FAQ explaining how "centered" works will help.

[santaclaws01]

4 minutes ago, Ogid said:

(and with this reading a 40mm or higher model will block the piggapult shockwave as an actual 30mm shockwave is beng created under the model).

As was said earlier, only if the model has a bigger Sz than every other model within the range.

[Ogid]

16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

As was said earlier, only if the model has a bigger Sz than every other model within the range.

mmm that's true; checking the rules it's still possible to apply the pg17 rules even if a the model is totally covering the marker with a bigger base... weird. If the model has an equal Sz it'd still block it tho.

However this opens an extra question for me... If a shockwave is centered on a model and that model is considered the shockwave marker, does the Sz of that model is also considered to trace LoS with that marker or is it considered as Sz0 to trace LoS?

[santaclaws01]

18 minutes ago, Ogid said:

mmm that's true; checking the rules it's still possible to apply the pg17 rules even if a the model is totally covering the marker with a bigger base... weird. If the model has an equal Sz it'd still block it tho.

However this opens an extra question for me... If a shockwave is centered on a model and that model is considered the shockwave marker, does the Sz of that model is also considered to trace LoS with that marker or is it considered as Sz0 to trace LoS?

Follow the same rules for any other object that generates the pulse. The model isn't being treated as a shockwave marker, it's what is generating the shockwave.