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Yore Huckleberry

Bans and Alternatives?

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I’m playing in my first GG-0 bans tournament this weekend.

On the one hand, Guild feels pretty well inured against them: peacekeeper, emissary, and Guild Steward are all versatile, as is Grimwell, Heartsbane, and the Orderly.

On the other hand, there’s a LOT of tech in Marshals (Jury, exorcists, Lone Marshal), and a few niche pieces that could be important (Papa Loco vs Raspy, Eg).

I’m curious what you’d be worried about having banned, and how you’d adjust?

EG, “I like to run Hoffman with the Lone Marshal for a surprise range threat, but if they ban Marshals I could bring Santiago or just use Melissa KORE.”

or “Nellie likes to use an executioner to double up on scheme marker control, but if they ban Guard I’d just bring a Peacekeeper.”

or “I use Death Marshal Recruiters as a threat against Collette or Bette Noir, but if they ban Marshal I’ll use Papa Loco and a No Prisoners upgrade to splash damage onto her.”

Any one else have thoughts or experiences with this?

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2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I don't wanna see horsemen banned.  Period.

In GG season 0, you can still hire the Pale Rider even if Horsemen get banned.

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1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

In GG season 0, you can still hire the Pale Rider even if Horsemen get banned.

Because it's versatile I'm guessing?  Tbh I haven't looked at it in a while.

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I think the idea of the Bans is to stop second masters in the case of this event since it was not made a singles event. I feel the game is still too new to really have Bans make a difference in games. 

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5 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Because it's versatile I'm guessing?  Tbh I haven't looked at it in a while.

Yea, models from banned keyword can be hired if they're versatile or share a keyword with leader (ie. Lucius can hire elite/journalist dual models even if journos get banned).

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6 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Yea, models from banned keyword can be hired if they're versatile or share a keyword with leader (ie. Lucius can hire elite/journalist dual models even if journos get banned).

Lame. Versatile models are a much bigger issue than tax models. Being able to snipe one or two would be really nice.  The format has lost its appeal to me.

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I'm curious about the offensive potential of bans, too. Offhand, here are the bans I'd start from:

Arcanists: Performer (Coryphees, Cassandra) or possibly M&SU (the Captain) if I know I want to be shooting a lot (though Howard Langstrom or Diesel Engines are still a thing)
Bayou: Tri Chi to stop free Dig Their Graves with Akaname, possibly Wizz-Bang if I'm expecting Taxidermist shenanigans, Tricksy to stop Rooster Riders, maybe?
Explorers: Whichever they aren't playing! XD
Neverborn: Swampfiend (Zoraida, The First Mate, breaks up the Dreamer/Zoraida combo)
Outcasts: Bandit to stop Mad Dog or Dead Outlaw hijinks, Freikorps to stop their utility pieces
Resurrectionists: Transmortis to stop students of sinew/steel/etc, Redchapel if I just don't want Seamus hired in,
Ten Thunders: maybe Honeypot to stop Kitty Dumont? Or Last Blossom to stop Ototo? Monk to stop Thunder Archers, maybe?

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I honestly feel like Guild is in pretty good shape to resist bans. Peacekeeper, Pale Rider, and Guild Steward are all versatile, which matches well for when you need a melee beater, ranged threat, or focus/condition removal. Hitting Guard stops executioners, but then you can simply bring Thralls, and vice versa. I guess hitting Guard also stops hiring in Guild Hounds, which can hurt our scheming.

Guard: Stops our Hounds and Executioners. Stops the Queeg trick of turning focuses into Fast, maybe useful in casual Family games.
Augmented: pretty insulated? Peacekeeper is Versatile and immune.
Marshal: Stops Exorcists and Jury as tech picks; stops Lone Marshal as a self-sufficient and mobile ranged threat. Stops Lady J as a 17-stone beater pick.
Witchling Hunter: Stops Thralls, I suppose? Stops Sonnia as second master
Journalist: pretty insulated? The best model to borrow here is the totem, and if you just want Arcane Reservoir, pick Lucius instead of Nellie+Printing Press. Nellie as a 16-point schemer is pretty costly.
Family: Stops Monster Hunter or Pistolero scheme runners; stops Perdita as a second master
Frontier: Stops Pathfinder or Austringer niche picks?
Elite: Stops Agent 46 tech picks or Alan Reid as a mid-cost disruptor henchman. Stops Lucius as an Arcane Reservoir and Obey-Minion platform ... maybe best with Guard and Executioners?

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I've only played 8 games with Sonnia. OOK I've used:

  • Pathfinder (Frontier) - Offers movement and ranged damage. Other options for these exist.
  • Watcher (Augmented) - Reasonably cheap. Good movement. Handy for some tables but I guess I can live with it banned.
  • Judge (Marshal) - Card draw. No proper substitutes that I'm aware of.

Marshal ban could definitely hurt. I like having a decent hand. Especially in Corrupted Idols. Jury and Papa Loco also seem good to have for some games. Jury doesn't really have alternatives I think, but regarding Papa Loco at least there's other Blow it to Hell and Shockwave models in the faction.

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3 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

 

I'm curious about the offensive potential of bans, too. Offhand, here are the bans I'd start from:

Arcanists: Performer (Coryphees, Cassandra) or possibly M&SU (the Captain) if I know I want to be shooting a lot (though Howard Langstrom or Diesel Engines are still a thing)
 

the Captain is versatile ;)

  • Thanks 1

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2 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

I've only played 8 games with Sonnia. OOK I've used:

  • Pathfinder (Frontier) - Offers movement and ranged damage. Other options for these exist.
  • Watcher (Augmented) - Reasonably cheap. Good movement. Handy for some tables but I guess I can live with it banned.
  • Judge (Marshal) - Card draw. No proper substitutes that I'm aware of.

Marshal ban could definitely hurt. I like having a decent hand. Especially in Corrupted Idols. Jury and Papa Loco also seem good to have for some games. Jury doesn't really have alternatives I think, but regarding Papa Loco at least there's other Blow it to Hell and Shockwave models in the faction.

Watchers are also a point more expensive than hounds, which are also super fast and stay within that 3-4 stone schemer range. Once you're up to 5 points for a watcher I think it's pretty board dependent to take that over a keyword model with some synergy (like, if you're playing Family, that's a stone away from a Monster Hunter).

Yeah, I think Marshal is actually our deepest toolbox. Exorcists deal with a LOT of defensive tech and have some potent spike surprises. Domadores are healers and suited obey'ers for anyone nearby. The Jury is a potent inexpensive henchlady with a suited obey, good attacks, and defensive "get what you dealt" tech. I hadn't ever thought about taking the  Judge ook for the card draw, but spending a 5 for up to three free cards at the risk of some recoverable damage really is pretty good -- though I'm not sure you buy her ook before the Pale Rider.

Honestly Death Marshals themselves are the perfect pawn at 5 stones, too, and bumping them to 6 probably fills in holes for a few of our other keywords.

In Elite, Investigators are pretty good models for certain schemes (Claim Jump), as are False Witnesses (Harness, Detonate Charges). And Agent 46's un-cheatable attack is powerful, especially if it gets a good gun to copy out of some other in-keyword model and can fire at range ... though the best gun is probably either Santiago's or the Lone Marshal's, which points back to Marshal again a bit.

The other GIGANTIC tech pick in Marshal is Lady Justice herself. The fact that she's worth considering as a 5-AP beatstick for 17-stones is fun on its own ... but the real potency is picking her against a poison or fire master and leaping in to use "Restore the Natural Order" at the end of round one to instantly remove the 35 poison they spent all their AP putting on their models.

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My Sonnia core has been Pale Rider, Guild Steward and an upgrade for Sonnia. Anything else comes after. Judge makes the cut if I need cards. Mainly for Corrupted Idols. Winning 4 or 5 initiatives and deciding where Idols drop really helps.

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