Hivemind help needed

[Regelridderen]

My PANDORA is getting ready to face off vs. Guild LUCIUS in :

PLANT EXPLOSIVES and CORNER DEPLOYMENT

SCHEMES :

TAKE PRISONER

DELIVER A MESSAGE

VENDETTA

POWER RITUAL

OUTFLANK

So how would you prepare for this?

[Ogid]

Uff Explosives Corner require a ton of mobility... not sure if Pandy is the right call there. But assuming you'll play her...

It's a dangerous game for Pandora, Corner will give more time to the enemy rider to mass fate tokens, and Guild Lucius may field nasty gunlines so approaching him isn't necessarily easy.

You have 2 ways to try to play this game imo, pick a fast comp able to get in his face in turn 2 and try to overpower him there (and you better bring something to control the pale rider or a double Devastation may end the game right there); in that case go for schemes like Deliver a Message and Vendetta. The second one is try to outmaneouver him and go for a comp able to do Explosives, Outflank and Power Ritual better than him; if he don't want to split his bubble he will deny the second point of outflank but you could still get full power ritual invading his DZ.

Rider will be a good pick here that's for sure.

Not sure how it'd work, but you could try Grootslang + Doppleganger; creating the 3 Lair markers in the 3 corners you may send the Doppleganger to a corner (copying Lair to Lair, moving into a Lair and using it) and the Grootslang to the other (and before he can also create an scheme marker in your DZ because he can start in a Lair or Ambush into it, not like the Doppleganger). Giving them a few bombs will let you score Outflank, Power Ritual and the first point of Explosives in turn 2 (so 3 points right off the bat); but that will also set up the second point of Power Ritual and you will have 2 models with bombs moving into the enemy part of the board; that should be enough to put Lucius in the defensive side. The rest of the models may try a banzai charge into Lucius (or anything more subtle) to buy time for those 2. Mind in turn 5 the grootslang may create a Lair and come back to one of those 2 corners to score outflank and he can back earlier if extra defense is needed there). The only bad thing about the Grootslang vs Lucius is how hard is to break LoS, that thing is massive but it's not that tanky.

Good luck!

[Nagi21]

How would I prepare for this?  I'd call my opponent and say gg, then ask he wants a rematch with a new strat and scheme pool...

If that's not an option?  I'd take my best nephilim list and adjust it to pay the tax for having Dora as a leader.

Let me explain the sheer lopsidedness of this matchup:

1) Two of your schemes are not going to happen right off the bat.  Corner Outflank Dora is impossible unless you basically bring a nephilim list with Dora leading.  It's just not going to happen.  Deliver is a bit more simple to explain.  You can't score it while there's a false witness around Lucius, and a good Lucius player will always take one for the utility.  Power ritual you could score one point on but putting down scheme markers and keeping them vs Lucius is this side of insanity, especially in a small area like one of the corners.  

This leaves Vendetta and Prisoner, neither of which is ideal for you.  Reason being, Lucy has obeys out the ass.  Elite (ironically) has low ss models as its core, which means you will need to use low ss minions to do the vendetta-ing.  As soon as you score one point, Agent 46 is going to find that model and murder it.  Period.  End of story.  Take prisoner has the same issue.  You score one point, now whenever you setup for prisoner he obeys out of it.  He'd have to make a massive mistake for you to score two points on any of these.  So right there, you're getting at most 2 points off of a very predictable scheme pool.

2) Plant explosives.  Remember that corner outflank issue?  Dora can't be in both sides at once, and Lucius has enough movement tricks to swing from one side to the other after you commit.  He has multiple ways to keep you from interacting, and multiple ways to be where you can't.  At best you could punch through and keep pace, but even that's unlikely due to his obeys and activations, and at that point you will leave easy scheme points on the board.

3) Corner deployment.  If you take a changling and a hooded rider and maybe a mature nephilim, you might be able to reach the centerline and whichever corner you want by turn 2.  By this point Lucy will have already crossed into your half of the board and know which direction you're going for to avoid a large fight.  This leaves turns 3/4/5 to let the big boys try and chase down the planters and schemers... which they may do but then that's over half your ss doing just that.  Lucy can bring a hammer and they are some big hammers.  You just can't be in enough places quickly enough to deny anything without leaving a massive hole in your defenses.

I'm not trying to be negative for the sake of being negative.  This is the situation and it's... bad.

If you can make a "Woe"-ish crew work with this, you're a better player than me, or your opponent is brand new to the game or Lucius.  The only legit chance I see is you bring basically a fast, nephilim-like crew (Hina, Matures, maybe Nekima) and throw out the idea of this being a "Pandora" crew.  Use Dora as a support piece, but you are not winning this playing "Pandora".  Lucius does everything she does here but better, and it's not even close.  If I had to guess what the outcome of this game would be, before even seeing the crews, I'd place a bet on... 7-3 Lucius.

[scratchnsniff]

Obviouse advice, but I'd use terrain to try and get stuck into the crew as painlessly as possible, remembering all the incorp you have with aversions, sorrows. Also, teddy/kade can slingshot each other around to make up ground surprisingly quickly. 

Against that crew I'd deffo consider the rider, or at least hinamatsu who is quick enough in her own right. I'd try and get Pandy into the guts of the opponents crew as quick as possible with aversions pushing her, and poltergeist to back up. Once she's there she can do what she does best, hopefully be a distraction for a while while teddy/kade or rider take one flank, hinimatsu another, and your other sorrows/candy create mischief.

Pandy

Geist

Candy

Aversion

Aversion

Rider

Hinimatsu

Sorrow

5 stones to keep Pandy ticking is what I'd suggest

 

[Ezuma]

Dreamer or Nekima would be my picks for that pool, but going with Pandy you will probably want to avoid making a standard Woe crew full of slow pieces in favor of things like Hinamatsu and Hooded Rider to try and get in their face. Lucius is far more interact efficient and will likely outnumber you, so if you have a chance I would think it will involve killing his pieces early. That said, watch out for Agent 46 and be wary of potential gun lines. Perhaps taking a blackblood shaman to hand out focus and then becoem a mature could be a good choice, both for getting through manipulative and possibly scoring vendetta. 

[Regelridderen]

Great suggestions on not using Pandora, all.

However, it is a fixed master league, and Pandora it is. Another wrench to throw in the wheel is that my neverborn collection is limited to Woes, Nightmares, Doppleganger, changelings, Hinamatsu and Hoody

[solkan]

Are you limiting yourself to released models, or can you use Aversions and Lyssae?

You’ve got a Teddy for Kade’s Teddy, right?

[Nabijis]

As a Pandora Player, I have some ideas:

- use Baby Kade's Lure for moving Pandora (e.g. first activate baby Kade, lure Pandora and Teddy with his bonus action where is teddy)

- use Pandoras Despairs Influence for moving herself in addition to a trigger, but better: move Candy with the mask trigger...

- expect a shooty crew, so be aware of LoS/shooting lines

- deployment is key - even corner deployment. Take care of enough space for moving Pandora as fast as possible.

- be aware of Lucius' bubbles, particularly Alan Reid (Diversion, Boring Conversation) and the false witness (chasing a story, exclusive interview, tell no lies)

-  Maybe take Iggy into account as he is very fast scheme runner and is able to tease your openent. Maybe use him as a trap

- You must take Serena Bowman. Don't ask... take her. She is in my opinion one of the best versatile models (and nightmare). She can heal, end conditions, e.g. slow

- And don't forget: Pandora has Opportunist - any condition, so including slow, fast, focus.

- I'd like to recommend to use Pandora and Candy side by side; however, Candy is able to work for her own  And with the mask trigger for "Glimpse of Insanity" she jumps into the enemys crew

 

For schemes: Vendetta and Take Prisoner (e.g. with Baby Cade's "Lure"). Don't take Deliver a message

Alternatively, instead of scheming: just focus on VPs for the strategy and use your forces to deny scheming for Lucius. For example: Lucius will take Outflank, so send Teddy and Carver to each flank  

 

Good luck!

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, if you're stuck with fixed master you're stuck with it! Still gotta play to win. You'll probably have to get a bit wacky.

Given your available models, you probably want Widow Weaver and Bandersnatch. They are great at corner plant. They also offer some good scheming potential.

Rider is automatic here IMO.

EDIT: I'm sceptical of Serena. She is super slow, and you already have a slow keyword. She is not great on corner deployment, especially with no schemes or strategy for her.

EDIT2: also, looks like our collections are nearly identical! I'm just missing Hinamatsu and Carver.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Iggy will be a bit funky for scheme marker removal as you may hit your own models, but possibly something like:

New Pandora Crew (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 7
Leader:
  Pandora
Totem(s):
  Poltergeist
Hires:
  Widow Weaver
  Hinamatsu
  Iggy
  Hooded Rider
  Bandersnatch
References:
  Stitched Together
  Wicked Doll
  See My Shadow Changing

With 7 stones for whatever you want.

Hinamatsu charges then lures Pandora. Rider moves forward and Rides with Me on her. Bandersnatch moves forward and gets a web down for widow Weaver, giving her a 12" boost. The next turn, widow weaver gives Bandy a 12" boost. Leapfrog.

After that initial burst, you should have everyone across the centreline, so everyone focuses on killing the enemy while Bandy, Widow and Iggy score points. Possibly split into two teams, going after each flank, or hit one flank super hard (power ritual is a good option if you want to deny outflank but not score it).

Edit: could swap Iggy and an Aversion, in which case you'd want to mix up your first turn movements to boost Hinamatsu, Pandora, and the Aversion.

Also note you can fake outflank on deployment by putting Bandersnatch and Widow Weaver on opposite sides, then using a movement trick to reposition one and have it run at a diagonal to place a web turn one. Has worked well for me before, but recommend it only for players comfortable with inefficient bluff strategies.

[Ogid]

Hinamatsu and WW/Bander pair are good picks in that pool in general, but I'm not sure about picking them versus Lucius in particular.

Agent 46 has Analyze Weakness stat 6 with "On your heels" trigger; that's a huge threat for Hinamatsu (specially taking in count there is no need to commit his activation, it can be used with an Obey); the turn Lucius want to kill Hinamatsu, she will only have SS to keep herself alive.

WW/Bander are great but without being able to unbury summons and terrorize models with their Wp duels it's a bit harder to keep them safe; Lucius can use obeys to position displaced models in position without wasting those model's AP, a gunline isn't the ideal scenario for them and again Agent 46 has Stealth and Ruthless which will make him extra safe and dangerous versus WW. To really take advantage of the mobility of both spiders both have to go for the same flank so Lucius will have an easier time stopping that. And then the pale rider; that one will probably show up and that's another model able to threat them and it's also unimpeded.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Fair points! I don't think Lucius' gun line is particularly potent, is it? His models are some of the weaker shooters in guild. Hinamatsu might be worth ditching because of Agent 46, although you could run her a bit behind the others to keep her safe, that negates the point a bit.

Perhaps swap Hinamatsu and Iggy for Candy and Aversion. Candy can Vendetta Agent 46, Alan Reid, or Doppleganger. This can force them to play a bit safer. Aversion is needed if you're taking Candy for extra crew mobility.

Here is what I'd envision with the above list as one possible strategy.

You could have the B team (Pandora, Rider, heavy hitters) go forward providing cover for the A team (Widow Weaver + Bandersnatch). The C team is just the Poltergeist or Iggy or Aversion dropping a power ritual marker (and could do this even if doing a different plan, as it is a useful bluff tactic and you may want to hold back Poltergeist initially).

WW + Bandy will die if you let things hit them, but the strength of those models is that they're very difficult to attack if they have some backup doing zone control. Don't let things get close enough to kill them until they've dropped their explosive tokens. Pandora excels at zone control, so it might work.

You could also go for simply surging forward and meeting the enemy, going after them and gumming them up. Then use Widow Weaver and Bandersnatch to lay down some bombs wherever you can punch a gap in their lines.

This means the list can potentially handle Vendetta (1-2 points), Take Prisoner (1 point), Power ritual (1 point), and go hard on the strategy (aiming for a 1-2 point advantage to cancel out the scheme disadvantage).

It's a bit rough, but it is not like there are heaps of options if locked into Pandora + nightmares.

[Regelridderen]

I was actually thinking about going decidedly non-elite. Taking something like this :

Pandora, Poltergeist, Candy, Iggy, Baby Kade, 3x Sorrow, 2x Aversion, 2 Stones.

Most of Lucius crew are fairly squishy and useless in a fight – Lawyers, Changelings, Witnesses, even the Agent has a mediocre Df5, while the main threats (46 and Pale) would ignore the woes main defences of Terrifying and Manipulative anyway,

Meanwhile having an ample supply of Glimpse of Insanity would assert some pressure on a trigger happy crew, while having plenty of activations would ensure, that I could profit from Manipulative as much possible.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

I was actually thinking about going completely opposite to this. Taking something like this :

Pandora, Poltergeist, Candy, Iggy, Baby Kade, 3x Sorrow, 2x Aversion, 2 Stones.

Most of Lucius crew are fairly squishy and useless in a fight – Lawyers, Changelings, Witnesses, even the Agent has a mediocre Df5, while the main threats (46 and Pale) would ignore the woes main defences of Terrifying and Manipulative anyway,

Meanwhile having an ample supply of Glimpse of Insanity would assert some pressure on a trigger happy crew, while having plenty of activations would ensure, that I could profit from Manipulative as much possible.

Give it a go! I've never played against Lucius, so my advice isn't rock solid necessarily.

However, one note of caution is to make sure you're able to travel the distance to plant your bombs. That list is going to be great at bogging the enemy down and working your way through killing his crew. Just make sure you're scoring points along the way (and to be fair, you probably can manage 3 scheme points with that list!)

Also don't forget Poltergeist negates ruthless. Super important aura! It'll likely save Kade or Candy's life, or even Pandora's.

EDIT: Of course, denying is a valid strategy too. If you kill all of his bomb carriers, that's as good as scoring points with your bombs.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fair points! I don't think Lucius' gun line is particularly potent, is it? His models are some of the weaker shooters in guild. Hinamatsu might be worth ditching because of Agent 46, although you could run her a bit behind the others to keep her safe, that negates the point a bit.

The problem isn't the keyword models, the problem is Lucius picking something like Rider, a pathfinder or a rifleman; copy that action with the Agent 46 and then put that in good use with an stat 6 ranged attack with Inhuman Physiology and Ruthless; so no Terrifying/manipulative or cheat the defense flip possible for Pandora and easy triggers (which may include things like Staggered+Injured, Execute or Slow) and getting enough difference to get cheatable damage flips for him (which isn't exactly Pandora's strong point).

That could be manageable if it's only the Agent, but Lucius can funnel a ton of actions through him; Lucius + 2 changelings could give him 5 extra Ap per turn (3 in Lucius activation, 2 more in each changeling activation) in addition to his 2 actions, more is possible including extra Changelins/Lawyers. That level of firepower is scary.

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Here is what I'd envision with the above list as one possible strategy.

Aside for that beautiful shot that should be taugh in any strategy study class ; I'm not sure about that battle plan versus him.

Lucius bubble is very strong at range; once Pandora get into close cuarters she has a chance, but at long range Lucius will destroy her; WW and Bander going so close to the main combat group will mean Lucius will have a very easy time facing them all and Pandora won't have enough models to break Lucius bubble with all the points dedicated to both Spiders scheming power. I'd send A to a flank and B+C to the other flank to make him break his bubble or let one team go unopossed.

I'd try to treat Lucius as a bubble crew, either go all in versus him, invade his side of the board to have an advantage with this explosives and pick schemes able to complete while clashing (or ones able to do with very cheap schemers) or try to evade him to force his bubble to break and pick schemes able to do without brawling too much.

But yeah, I agree it's not the best pick but with fixed master and without more options is hard to figure out something better.

2 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I was actually thinking about going decidedly non-elite. Taking something like this :

Pandora, Poltergeist, Candy, Iggy, Baby Kade, 3x Sorrow, 2x Aversion, 2 Stones.

Most of Lucius crew are fairly squishy and useless in a fight – Lawyers, Changelings, Witnesses, even the Agent has a mediocre Df5, while the main threats (46 and Pale) would ignore the woes main defences of Terrifying and Manipulative anyway,

I like the minion heavy idea, you'll need the extra APs and they have no tech versus Incorporeal. However 2 SS is an invitation for 46 to kill Candy, I'd drop something to increase the cache... and maybe a Lyssa could be worth a try in this one (bring it is also good to lure other models forward and the oportunistic staggered may be useful versus the pale rider to remove the condition in your models). Also a possible danger of fielding 10 models versus Lucius is that if he go Elite, you'll be giving him a ton of cards.

Careful with getting overconfident versus Lawyer and Changellings, those are very cost effective models and the heart of Lucius' obey engine. A Laywer will give Shielded+2 to 2 different models and will probably try to obey a beater; having also tools for the job (that when well used it will recover good cards back into the hand) and a mele attack that Slow to control enemy in close range in a pinch (which combined with a self-used shielded and slow make it hard to deal with for the slowed model). A changelling will also give extra APs to those Ludicrous beaters and if rushed and ignored has also a slowing ability. The shielded part isn't that bad playing Pandora, but other crews could end facing a Shielded+4 Agent 46 (with also Armor+1 in Guild) easily; but the extra AP for the beaters is more dangerous with the Agent ignoring all Woes defensive tech and having also stealth to be safe until Pandora is really close.

I was thinking in suggesting a Changeling to give suits to Woes (specially for slow to try to control a bit the other crew), but I just realized that Lucius' totem has Dispel Magic so that won't be that useful anyway (and the steward has also a high chance to show up versus Pandora)... A well played Lucius has to be nightmarish.

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

Aside for that beautiful shot that should be taugh in any strategy study class ; I'm not sure about that battle plan versus him.

Lucius bubble is very strong at range; once Pandora get into close cuarters she has a chance, but at long range Lucius will destroy her; WW and Bander going so close to the main combat group will mean Lucius will have a very easy time facing them all and Pandora won't have enough models to break Lucius bubble with all the points dedicated to both Spiders scheming power. I'd send A to a flank and B+C to the other flank to make him break his bubble or let one team go unopossed.

I'd try to treat Lucius as a bubble crew, either go all in versus him, invade his side of the board to have an advantage with this explosives and pick schemes able to complete while clashing (or ones able to do with very cheap schemers) or try to evade him to force his bubble to break and pick schemes able to do without brawling too much.

But yeah, I agree it's not the best pick but with fixed master and without more options is hard to figure out something better.

Haha, thanks. My artistic skills impressed even me.

I think I didn't communicate the point of the strategy very well, though. The WW and Bandy would err towards a flank, but can flexibly swap to 20+ inches away pretty easily if the situation calls for it.

Pandora and co. would sweep forward to make sure that anything that gets within 12"/shooting range of the spiders is killed so that it can't just gun the spiders down. If the entire Lucius crew decided to engage the Pandora crew, the spiders would be close enough to jump into the fight (and they're great at hitting things, just not at getting hit).

But I doubt the entire Lucius crew would engage Pandora, as they have to worry about being on corner deployment with plant explosives as well. It is one of the least scenarios out there, so I don't think Lucius will be in full kill mode.

Assuming the more likely scenario that Lucius decides to try for two flanks or to dodge Pandora's crew, she can then sweep in and start hitting him from the side (after clearing the way for the spiders). The spiders could either come support (if going for Take prisoner or Vendetta) or they could secure more points, or they could counter enemy bombs with their spiderweb field (don't think Lucius has much marker removal?)

It is mostly mute as it looks like OP will go a different direction, but wanted to clarify the strategy thoughts. If your spiders are getting hit when you don't want them to, you're probably not giving them enough zone control support. Nothing should be able to get within 12" of where they want to be if you're zone controlling hard enough (short of models like Archie or the Valedictorian who can easily bypass obstacles and still take 2-3 attacks).