Vale and the inappropriate touching

[Cpt. Over-Extend]

Does anyone else find that Valedictorian's ability to reach out and hit something twice at Stat 7 from 22" away to be a bit.... mean?  Assuming you're doing it right, that will result in a model flip as you're gonna summon something around the end of Turn 1 and even if it comes in damaged, you're getting something with 4/5 health and hard to wound (+1 Armor if you go with a punk).  A lot of the success I've had with the Transmortis crew stems from that Turn 1 summon, which can then quickly snowball into a second turn summon too.  All of this, is assuming you're unpacking well, keeping Vale in range of the Emissary and Shockwave Nuke Totem, giving her an upgrade from the boss dude and fast.

[Ogid]

I haven't faced him yet, but Transmortis seems scary; tanky even for Res standards, fast, killy and with a lot of annoying tricks. But the right answer for that is probably not in the game but when hiring. 

You'll want to pick hard to kill elite models, 9-10 SS or higher, enforcers must be VERY tanky (Rider or something similar), the rest should be SS users with a decent cache backing them up; plus a few very cheap schemers and supports (4SS or less). That's the only way to make it harder for Transmortis, they either chase your 4SS models that won't give them any summons or have to earn them killing a 10SS henchman with a good cache backing it up. Picking 7 or 8SS minions versus them is probably a mistake that is going to punish the player in turn 1 if the Transmortis player make a good opening like that one.

And probably creative ways to kill your own models when it's clear they are doomed will probably help (consume and the like)

[Maniacal_cackle]

It seems super mean.

But if you have a 10 stone model buffed by a master (fast), another 10 stone model (emmisary), and a totem... It should feel like it is doing something mean. Alpha strikes are a part of the game, and other crews can do it with their master to hit even harder.

Archie can do two attacks from ~19 inches away with no support. So I don't think it sounds overpowered necessarily (though her attack is better).

[Deathinabox]

A big thing will tossing Val in like that. I find that when I do I'm typically piece-trading her. She doesn't tend to last long after going in like that. As stated above, it's also quite a bit of set-up.

[Ogid]

14 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But if you have a 10 stone model buffed by a master (fast), another 10 stone model (emmisary), and a totem... It should feel like it is doing something mean. Alpha strikes are a part of the game, and other crews can do it with their master to hit even harder.

Putting it like that it seems like a complicated combo where a lot of models are expending AP on her. Valedictorian is 9SS, Schtook give her the upgrade and fast (bonus and 1 normal action), and then he will pulse Focused to his crew (this also gives an extra 2'' push); which is something he is going to do anyway in turn 1. Totem and Emissary only have to be there for their auras.

Vale defensive stats/abilities are very good and she is also a SS user, it's not that easy to kill after the rush if she times it well (last activation of first turn, first activation of the second to run away if she is in a hairy situation).

Not saying it's OP tho; but it's not hard to set up (it can be done with Vale and totem; the emissary is pushing the concept), nor that risky.

[Maniacal_cackle]

46 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Saying it like that it seems like a complicated combo where a lot of models are expending AP on her. Valedictorian is 9SS, Schtook give her the upgrade and fast (bonus and 1 normal action), and then he will pulse Focused to his crew; which is something he is going to do anyway in turn 1. Totem and Emissary only have to be there for their auras.

Well, the 'cost' of her pulling it off when activating last (and thus doing it safely) is:

• Hiring an emmisary
• Have the Emissary end its activation within 6" of the Valedictorian.
• Have the totem end its activation within 3"
• Position the master within 10 inches of her.
• Use a master bonus action (to put the upgrade) and an action (to give fast)
• Her full activation
• Discarding a card for flurry.

And for all this, you alpha strike her and get two attacks. Which is great, but then your 9 cost model is in the middle of the enemy crew, with no free disengage, no fast, and able to move a maximum of 10" on the next turn (so the running away option is not actually that possible). And on top of that, your master, totem, and emissary are 14-20" away back where she started.

The game isn't just about AP. Positioning matters, and positioning requirements are a cost that matters.

Incidentally, a Dead Rider with sloth can get two attacks at 19 inches, and potentially drag the other model back 6" towards the crew, then on its next turn drag the model another 8" towards its crew (more likely is 4" + 6"). And of course Archie can solo rush ~19" and attack twice, then leap away to disengage at the start of the next turn.

Ressers are a faction with fantastic 9-11 stone alpha striking options. It is one of the perks of the faction. But we of course lack the crew-wide alpha strike options available to say Neverborn or Ten Thunders, which is how you counter us. You punish the alpha strikers that are removed from the support of their crew.

[Ogid]

It's not that costy... the emissary isn't really necessary for that unless she really needs that extra 3'' and Schtook Focused pulse make the crew to want to bubble a bit in turn 1; so there is no trade off there. The rest of the crew and Schtook himself will go ahead in turn 1 so other models may be really close to Valedictorian in turn 2 (and if Vale rush was successful, there will be an extra model there that can also attack in turn 1 if there are other models nearby, and even with slow the students have mean bonus actions). It's also not necessary to go and kill a model right next to the other player's master, 21-24'' let her hit less supported targets. Plus if the target get too close of her, it may get 3 attacks instead of 2.

But again, that rush isn't anything out of the ordinary; it's extra mean for the kill+summon+unholy defensive stats of that crew, but that's something the other player has to consider when hiring knowing who he is facing. Hiring something like Wille for example is a gift for Transmortis; but that's not they being good, that's the other player doing questionable hiring choices.

My point is that's not a hard to do opening, nor require the crew to go out of its way to do it; the standard play of the crew will lead to that kind of turn 1 play. I don't want to enter in if that's too good or not because I don't know how good that crew really is.

 

[Kharnage]

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

Not saying it's OP tho; but it's not hard to set up (it can be done with Vale and totem; the emissary is pushing the concept), nor that risky.

Here's the thing; the Valedictorian rarely survives past turn 2. Of the 10 or so Von Schtook games I've had, she's survived past turn 2, on only the last game I saw her. It's not really "low risk", you're flinging a model, however reasonably tanky, into the middle of the crew, and waiting on the undergrads to say "STRIKE FROM THE SKY, BROTHERS" for backup. And undergrads are crazy annoying for cost, but they're no Valedictorian. And while Von Schtook technically heals, she's not gonna be healed out of "whole crew" or "whole crew minus model she managed to kill" scenarios. 

[Trample]

Using Valedictorian in this was is pretty powerful and, in my opinion, the best way us her in the game. She can be very effective with those two attacks, one of which should be focused, and her zero stunning attack. She should be able to take out a cheap activation and add one for you. I don't think she's overpowered though. She does have a stat 7, but only carries a 2/4/5 damage track. She's likely going to be doing 7 damage if you play your cards right in that first round. It's enough to do that job, but it's isn't exactly overwhelming. 

The more important element of this I would suggest, is that just like anything else once you've figured it out you can prepare for the stoke and absorb it. Clearly there are other alpha-esque attacks in the game (Shenlong, Lady J, etc) that can do even more damage and remove a model right away. There are also summoners (Dreamer, Asami) that can put summoned models in your face early. Valedictorian can (with the aforementioned help) do both. It's cool and powerful but I really don't think it even approaches an OP level. 

Next time you play against Von Schtook, plan for it and set out the bait you want her to take. Make her your vendetta target and make your opponent pay for his probing strike. 

[Cleezy]

I think it can often be a bit of a trap to launch Vale in this way, yes it looks like an appealing option but once she gets away from the models that can buff her she loses a little bit of momentum and can end up wasting precious AP getting back into the game.

In more recent games I have found that using turn 1 to get her set up can be situationally more beneficial, especially if you have the means to force initiative to you. Also at times a trading her isn't always the best option because a lot of what you can kill with the output won't be a model on her level (I tend to use her as a bully - chasing high cost minions/enforcers).

That said never discount using her in t1 if it won't mess up her positioning/create a threat you don't really want to her OR if her being there disrupts your opponents second turn then again it may be the favourable option.

I have two recent examples where I have used her in different situations to great effect:

1st holding Vale back a turn and having her made fast after activating, upgrade attached and two focus plus within the aura of both emissary and totem. This would allow her to comfortably reach my opponents Yasanori, stun him and be able to take 2 focused swings at him and a standard attack if necessary (the hand backed up a 2 swing kill) it would also allow me a charge onto kitty if I opted for the on your heels trigger from the bonus.

2nd Going straight in - I played a Titania opponent who had a section of cheaper models pushed to a flank, I could only just make the charge with fast Vale but allowed me two attacks to kill two models and BYS an undergraduate in. This took out my opponents three scheme runners in t1, left Vale and the undergrad in a safe position but also a position that forced my opponent to split their forces.

Vale isn't 'too strong' but can feel like that when she bullies weaker models and for me that is where she excels and IMO the best way to use her. As for t1 or t2 it is wholly situational and based on individual circumstance in my experience.

[Maniacal_cackle]

20 minutes ago, Cleezy said:

2d Going straight in - I played a Titania opponent who had a section of cheaper models pushed to a flank, I could only just make the charge with fast Vale but allowed me two attacks to kill two models and BYS an undergraduate in. This took out my opponents three scheme runners in t1, left Vale and the undergrad in a safe position but also a position that forced my opponent to split their forces.

This I think is one of the biggest reasons Archie and Valley get flak. A lot of people just run scheme runners without support and it works against some crews (it can be a real PITA against my Neverborn crews).

Against ressers (Archie, Valley, Seamus, etc), you can't do that. No matter where on the board you put a scheme runner, we can get to it and kill it with little cost. With Pandora and Dreamer, a savvy enemy can tie me up so I struggle to answer a lone schemer positioned well. Resser models cheat on movement and can prevent tie-up strategies.

You have to protect your runners against us.