Base size and standing

[Zebo]

I can't find if there's some specification of when a model can't keep standing in a piece of terrain without falling.

It has to have all the base inside the terrain, or otherwise it would fall? 

It has to have all the base out of the terrain to fall, or otherwise it would stand? 

It's based in the arbitrary rule of "if the model keeps balance over the terrain and the miniature doesn't fall, it can stand in the terrain? 

Can a model with 50mm base stand over a wall of 1/2" (Less than 15mm)? 

If a model climbs a fence over wich it cannot stand, it falls in the other side of it?

 

Direct example:

One model is in base contact with a wall 2" High and 1/2" Wide, how much movement would cost to that model to reach the other side of the wall? Would matter the size of the model's base? 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Then there's no official rule/answer for this. 

The rules say what they say.  Wyrd has during the previous edition published two FAQ/errata documents per year, although they have so far only stated 'No comment, but we are paying attention' when asked about M3E FAQ/errata plans.

But, to be frank, it's terrain.  That means that you have to stop and think about what rules are going to make sense with the terrain collection you have.  You're expected to make the appropriate choices so that the terrain you have available to you will not result in a miserable experience.  Those choices include the traits to assign to each terrain piece, and out of necessity what standard for 'support' to use.

Remember that this is a game with 30mm, 40mm, and 50mm bases.  If you have terrain built on multiples of centimeters, that's probably awesome.  But if all you have available are terrain built in multiples of inches, climbing on top of walls is going to be a miserable experience if you're not using 'majority of the base supported = supported by terrain' standard.

Some examples:

* You've got a catwalk structure that you built by taking two thin (2mm thick) rods and spacing them 15mm apart.  What size models do you expect that catwalk to support?  No one knows unless until you start discussing the terrain piece.

* You've got some small barrels and boxes that you want to use as terrain.  It's not a level surface so no base is going to have full contact with it, but at same time no model is going to fall off of it.

* You have a piece of terrain which is supposed to be a staircase, built with 1/4" steps.  What standard of 'fully supported' will allow you to use that terrain?

* You managed to find a set of TerraClips terrain and decided that you really like the ramps and multiple levels.  Then you try to put a 50mm base on one of the ramps and realize that between Wyrd's customary base overhang and other factors, you can't fit most 50mm models on the levels.

* You want to use the TerraClips tables and chairs in an area because it looks cool, but still want 40mm and 50mm models to be able to stand on the tables.

and so on.

Make the choices that make sense for the terrain you have.  

[solkan]

The statement in the rulebook concerning falling off a piece of terrain, either standing still or moving in general is:

Quote

If a model is ever without any of its base supported by terrain or the table, that model falls and suffers falling damage equal to half the distance it fell in inches (rounded down). It then continues any remaining portion of its movement as normal.

If the action is a Walk and Climbable terrain is involved, then the rules are slightly different:

Quote

If a model moves in this way, it does not fall during this movement so long as it remains in base contact with the terrain. If the model’s base is not supported by terrain or the table at the end of this movement, it falls as normal.

In other words, if you're performing a walk and you want to go up a climbable surface, such as "a fence that it cannot stand on", the model falls down.

--

History rant:  These rules got argued over a lot during the beta.  The interaction most likely to make people angry is a model moving and getting "free movement".

So if you climb up a fence, and then don't have enough movement to cross it and get to the other side, most people expect that you fall down on the side you started on.  Because otherwise you've gotten free movement.

Likewise, if you're standing on top of a wall and a move pushes you towards the edge, if you fall and you'd have to move the base forward to reach the ground that's going to feel like free movement.  The only time you're going to be allowed that forward movement "for free" is at the end of the movement.  If you look at page 14 of the rules PDF, where it has the example of Rasputina being forced to move off of a crate, the 2" move that causes Rasputina to fall off of the crate has no free movement, because the 2" is enough to move the base clear off of the crate and on to the ground.

Would less than 15mm of movement be expected to cause Rasputina to fall?  Probably not.  Would 1" of movement be enough to cause Rasputina to fall?  Probably.

--

If you have a blank "stunt base" of the specified diameter, that's another common criteria for "Is the base supported?"  Put the base where the model is supposed to be, and see whether it falls off.

 

[Zebo]

Then there's no official rule/answer for this. 

[Ludvig]

21 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Then there's no official rule/answer for this. 

What do you mean? If any part of your base is unsupported when you end a move action you instantly fall. The rules quoted are chrystal clear on this. 

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

32 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

What do you mean? If any part of your base is unsupported when you end a move action you instantly fall. The rules quoted are chrystal clear on this. 

Perhaps its a problem with clarification of what "unsupported" means.  In this case,  unsupported refers to when a model would physically topple and not rest on an area without assistance.  It does NOT refer to parts of a model or base that hang over the edge of an object with height, UNLESS as referenced earlier, that they cannot stand without assistance. 

 

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

What do you mean? If any part of your base is unsupported when you end a move action you instantly fall. The rules quoted are chrystal clear on this. 

Sorry, English is not my first language, and I don't understand if this any

 

10 hours ago, solkan said:

 

Quote

If a model is ever without any of its base supported by terrain or the table, that model falls and suffers falling damage equal to half the distance it fell in inches (rounded down). It then continues any remaining portion of its movement as normal. 

 

Quote

 

Means that the whole base must be supported to stand, or that the whole base must be unsuported to fall (that's why I made a lot of separate questions).

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

Perhaps its a problem with clarification of what "unsupported" means.  In this case,  unsupported refers to when a model would physically topple and not rest on an area without assistance.  It does NOT refer to parts of a model or base that hang over the edge of an object with height, UNLESS as referenced earlier, that they cannot stand without assistance. 

 

No, that's not what unsupported means in the rules. It means that if a model ever has all of it's base off of the table/terrain it will fall. A mechanical advantage isn't being given to people who want to heavily weigh down one portion of a model's base.

[Ludvig]

RaW you fall if even a millimeter of your base doesn't have individual support and you are not currently in the process of moving. The rules don't mention the base as a whole being supported. This way of playing makes a lot of terrain impractical and large bases with short movement will be gimped hard if they want to climb.

We usually disregard these rules and go by roughly 75% needs support. We also don't go by balancing, if you can stand it includes propping the model up with something. That last bit is because metal models and interesting poses are not something we want to punish. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

RaW you fall if even a millimeter of your base doesn't have individual support and you are not currently in the process of moving. This way of playing makes a lot of terrain impractical and large bases with short movement will be gimped hard if they want to climb.

We usually disregard these rules and go by roughly 75% needs support. We also don't go by balancing, if you can stand it includes propping the model up with something. That last bit is because metal models and interesting poses are not something we want to punish. 

No, RaW you fall if 100% of your base isn't supported.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

No, RaW you fall if 100% of your base isn't supported.

While moving yes. When you aren't taking a move action you fall if any part of your base doesn't have support. It doesn't mention the model as a whole being able to stand or having support so I would assume you check if any small portion isn't supported by something.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

While moving yes. When you aren't taking a move action you fall if any part of your base doesn't have support. It doesn't mention the model as a whole being able to stand or having support so I would assume you check if any small portion isn't supported by something.

It says "If it a model is ever without any of it's base supported by terrain or the table...". That means that if any of the models base is supported it, it won't fall. This is further confirmed by the diagram which states "As soon as Rasputina's base is no longer on terrain or the table..." It even removes any ambiguity by not saying supported, but just on. The situation you're saying a model would fall directly contradicts what the rules say.

Yes the wording is unnecessarily confusing and takes a lot of unpacking.

[Ludvig]

@Zebo

I take everything back. Wasn't so clear after all. 😆

[Maniacal_cackle]

This comes up a lot, and I think inevitably you have to conclude it is ambiguous.

"If a model is ever without any of its base supported by terrain or the table"

Without any of its base supported could mean any % unsupported or could mean 100% unsupported. People seem to always have opposite interpretations.

[Clement]

@Maniacal_cackle has the issue down.  Until we get an FAQ that pins down "can a model partially hang off an edge?" We're stuck with our own interpretations.

I would point out that the "any part of the base is supported stops you from falling" makes climbing and movement work just fine over standard terrain, while the "100% support or you fall back off the wall" means a 50mm wk 4 model has a lot of difficulty getting across even ht 1 walls/boxes unless it VERY carefully lines up it's approach.