Is there anything like a tier list?

[Meliondor]

I am new at Malifaux 3rd and will take time during the holidays to read the rules and relearn the models.

But I have a really hard time figuring out what our maters still can do and how it compares to other masters. So I am completly missing Sonyas Flame Wall for example or our crazy buffs (Loco or Fran for example). Or for  example Lady Js melee attack of 6 seems quite low to me for a melee master? The missing CA of 9 from Sonya is also going to hurt....

 

So is there anything like a Tier list? In Faction / cross faction?

[Yore Huckleberry]

2 hours ago, Meliondor said:

I am new at Malifaux 3rd and will take time during the holidays to read the rules and relearn the models.

But I have a really hard time figuring out what our maters still can do and how it compares to other masters. So I am completly missing Sonyas Flame Wall for example or our crazy buffs (Loco or Fran for example). Or for  example Lady Js melee attack of 6 seems quite low to me for a melee master? The missing CA of 9 from Sonya is also going to hurt....

 

So is there anything like a Tier list? In Faction / cross faction?

Lady J’s stat 6 attack is strong for two major reasons, and both interact with her leap:

 - plus flips to damage if she hasn’t charged (so, at stat six, she just has to beat a defense flip by one to get a cheatable  straight flip). The leap helps because she doesn’t need to charge, of course.

- high quantity of attacks: her attack action and her leap quick-action BOTH have a trigger to take an additional attack (Although the one on the sword requires a different target). With a 2” range, it is possible to set this up fairly well.

This means Lady J is essentially a 4 AP master on most turns, often a 5 AP master when you have the card to leap/attack (a 5+ of rams or masks), and she caps out at SEVEN greatsword swings in a single activation if she hits every trigger.

Bring some stones!

[Adran]

Numbers have generally gone down across all stat cards, damage, range and attack value, so you have to look past those obvious things to judge. ( it might not be obvious, but lady j typically does more damage per attack than a vik or nekima, despite not having as high a stat thanks to the positive to damage, and leap allowing her to not need to charge). 

Tier lists are always very personalized, so I don't hold much by them, and people are still discovering things.  You can find some threads on this forum about people's General tier lists, but I'd note that a lot of the things people worried about 6 months ago don't seem to have been the " power choices" of 3 months ago...

[Alerteddonkey42]

11 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Lady J’s stat 6 attack is strong for two major reasons, and both interact with her leap:

 - plus flips to damage if she hasn’t charged (so, at stat six, she just has to beat a defense flip by one to get a cheatable  straight flip). The leap helps because she doesn’t need to charge, of course.

- high quantity of attacks: her attack action and her leap quick-action BOTH have a trigger to take an additional attack (Although the one on the sword requires a different target). With a 2” range, it is possible to set this up fairly well.

This means Lady J is essentially a 4 AP master on most turns, often a 5 AP master when you have the card to leap/attack (a 5+ of rams or masks), and she caps out at SEVEN greatsword swings in a single activation if she hits every trigger.

Bring some stones!

This assumes you are hitting every attack. I understand the premise though. This forum is a bit weird to me though. Most people will tell you that Guild is behind other factions in power, but every time something like this gets brought up I see posts about how great the guild master is and how they need no changes at all. 

To the point of the post. Tier lists often change depending on meta. I do often see Guild ranked pretty pow though. 

Edit: I often see Guild ranked pretty low. Though, I would also rank them as "pow." Many of Guild's models do pack a punch. 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Alerteddonkey42
Corrected a sentence

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

This assumes you are hitting every attack. I understand the premise though. This forum is a bit weird to me though. Most people will tell you that Guild is behind other factions in power, but every time something like this gets brought up I see posts about how great the guild master is and how they need no changes at all. 

To the point of the post. Tier lists often change depending on meta. I do often see Guild ranked pretty pow though. 

Guild is regarded as bottom rung, and you won’t see them widely represented at tournaments, yet in my experience Guild provide a good challenge. Trouble is, they rely on killing before scheming, and when tournament games only reach turn 3-4, they haven’t got much time to do it all.

-

Back on topic. You won’t find a tier list, but you’ll see, that there‘s constantly cropping new flavours of the month up, Lynch, Dreamer, Zoraida, Molly, Shenlong and whoever will be next. People are whinging left and right and prefer looking for problems rather than solutions. 

M3E is different from the previous edition, more streamlined, so you can’t judge stats based on previous experience, instead get your models on the table, play some games and try it out. Some models have changed in their function, in the case of Papa Loco, rather than just being a stat buffer, he works by causing mayhem on the field, throwing dynamite and blowing stuff up, so his mechanics are now closer to the concept of the character.

It’s a better game...

[Alerteddonkey42]

3 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Back on topic. You won’t find a tier list, but you’ll see, that there‘s constantly cropping new flavours of the month up, Lynch, Dreamer, Zoraida, Molly, Shenlong and whoever will be next. People are whinging left and right and prefer looking for problems rather than solutions. 

While people do tend to complain a lot, I believe it is important to at least listen to complaints. Pretending that there is no imbalance in the game and chalking up complaints to players just being bad at the game or whining for no reason can be detrimental to the health of the game. While we may not like to admit it, there are faction tiers and keyword tiers present in M3e (even though it is relatively young). That's not to say it isn't a great game, I thoroughly enjoy it! We'll never achieve perfect balance, but I always like to strive for it. For example, the small tweaks to rules in GG0 to address Zoraida were great. Not too heavy-handed but enough to improve player experience. 

[Regelridderen]

7 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

While people do tend to complain a lot, I believe it is important to at least listen to complaints. Pretending that there is no imbalance in the game and chalking up complaints to players just being bad at the game or whining for no reason can be detrimental to the health of the game. While we may not like to admit it, there are faction tiers and keyword tiers present in M3e (even though it is relatively young). That's not to say it isn't a great game, I thoroughly enjoy it! We'll never achieve perfect balance, but I always like to strive for it. For example, the small tweaks to rules in GG0 to address Zoraida were great. Not too heavy-handed but enough to improve player experience. 

Absolutely, it’s important acknowledge the weaknesses in the game. Yet, people are most often focused on demanding the designers to do this and that to their models, rather than asking the questions, they really need the answer to i.e. How do I defeat Shenlong?

[4thstringer]

6 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Absolutely, it’s important acknowledge the weaknesses in the game. Yet, people are most often focused on demanding the designers to do this and that to their models, rather than asking the questions, they really need the answer to i.e. How do I defeat Shenlong?

The answer to how do I defeat Shen Long is basically wait until January and hope they apply the Nerf bat.  At that point we just accept our resser overlords because once Shen isn't keeping them in line they are going to run rampant.

[Mycellanious]

5 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

The answer to how do I defeat Shen Long is basically wait until January and hope they apply the Nerf bat.  At that point we just accept our resser overlords because once Shen isn't keeping them in line they are going to run rampant.

I once beat Shenlong. I took a list with 8 minions and used their bodies to physically block his path to my master and henchman and by the time he'd killed them all (turn 3) he'd burned through all his chi.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

9 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

The answer to how do I defeat Shen Long is basically wait until January and hope they apply the Nerf bat.  At that point we just accept our resser overlords because once Shen isn't keeping them in line they are going to run rampant.

[katadder]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I once beat Shenlong. I took a list with 8 minions and used their bodies to physically block his path to my master and henchman and by the time he'd killed them all (turn 3) he'd burned through all his chi.

Falling rave kick allows him to ignore models during that 6" move so that's no real defence.

I have beaten him with misaki with ease though. Just have to concentrate him down if you want him dead

[Regelridderen]

2 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

The answer to how do I defeat Shen Long is basically wait until January and hope they apply the Nerf bat.  At that point we just accept our resser overlords because once Shen isn't keeping them in line they are going to run rampant.

Exactly! 

Accepting, that you can’t change the rules yourself is the first step to happiness

[Mycellanious]

42 minutes ago, katadder said:

Falling rave kick allows him to ignore models during that 6" move so that's no real defence.

I have beaten him with misaki with ease though. Just have to concentrate him down if you want him dead

Yes, but what I mean is I physically encircled my models so that his base could not fit within an inch of them

[Nikodemus]

10 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Yes, but what I mean is I physically encircled my models so that his base could not fit within an inch of them

What was the pool?

That kind of positioning 'forced' upon you sounds like it'd make it very difficult for you to score anything. Starting to sound like a reallu funky game.

[Gnomezilla]

@Meliondor so far the Guildies who have placed well in tournaments have used Hoffman, Nellie, Lucius, Lady Justice, and very recently Sonnia, in roughly that order of frequency. (Basse and Hoffman have had more play in their other factions.)

Sonnia’s unique element this edition (she drops blasts but not quite so many so far) is the summon-upon-death. The few masters who do that disrupt the odds of their game very quickly with one strong summon. She also suppresses the ranges of ranged and bubble crews but I haven’t heard as much about that, or about counterplay in general (which is a shame as Guild, Lady J in particular, is built to counterplay).

[Gnomezilla]

If you’re a classic Guildie who wants to play the ‘master plus supporting cast’ game, Lady Justice is the only choice. Neither Sonnia nor Perdita work that way any more, and the others that remain to us never did. (If Nellie gets her RAW to match her play style as intended, she might become another. Basse has potential to solo things but very few support actions in-keyword other than plain heals.) You can play a mini-game like that by cherishing and buffing the pale rider instead.

[Yore Huckleberry]

2 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

@Meliondor so far the Guildies who have placed well in tournaments have used Hoffman, Nellie, Lucius, Lady Justice, and very recently Sonnia, in roughly that order of frequency. (Basse and Hoffman have had more play in their other factions.)

Sonnia’s unique element this edition (she drops blasts but not quite so many so far) is the summon-upon-death. The few masters who do that disrupt the odds of their game very quickly with one strong summon. She also suppresses the ranges of ranged and bubble crews but I haven’t heard as much about that, or about counterplay in general (which is a shame as Guild, Lady J in particular, is built to counterplay).

Yeah, I think Lady J does some great work if you stumble into a counter-match. She's strong against Tara (bring Jury and maybe a DMR) or Summoners, for example, as you can tech in Agent 46 and copy the Exorcist's summoned-headshot and then stone for the trigger.

Against Undead the Judge and Jury are still strong; the Judge suddenly has three meaningful attacks at range and a hell of a swing up close. So that's helpful against Ressers and a handful of other matchups (I had fun against Sloth in a Crossroads 7 game once, and Judge can put some real hurt into Izamu in a Yan-Lo crew if you give her the armor-ignoring upgrade and stone a bit).

We've got some interesting toolboxes for sure!

[Mycellanious]

39 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

What was the pool?

That kind of positioning 'forced' upon you sounds like it'd make it very difficult for you to score anything. Starting to sound like a reallu funky game.

Ok, so for specifics I was playing Foundry into Reckoning and had taken Harness the Leyline (scored 0 pts) and Claim Jump on Kang (scored 2 points). I also exaggerated the number of minions, it was only 6 sry about that I didnt expect so much scrutiny and had meant my comment mostly as a throwaway joke. Also sry I am not a guild player. 

On turn 1 I had Kang pulse out focus then walk twice to the center-right with his left side against a crate for cover (I thought I was out of Shen's range but forgot about sensi yu). I had Mei create a scrap marker next to Kang, then she took the left flank where my opponent had sent Yassunori (who I know from experience that Mei can easily deal with because of the Stunned condition). Then I had my Railworkers Railwalk to the scrap near Kang and concentrate (1 of them could not concentrate because he threw a Metal Gamin forward). I also walked the Arcane Effigy forward so his Negation Aura was covering Kang (but was unforunately out of range of the Railworkers because the ENEMY needs to be in the Aura). I had the Metal Gamin I threw walk twice towards the center.

Shenlong walk-walk-charge-onslaught-killed my front most Raikworker. 

Turn 2, my opponent won initiative decided to go first and kill the Arcane Effigy since he knew I would activate him first to put up Negation Aura. He could have likely just killed Kang, but was not confident that he could kill him and get out because I had stones to reduce damage and Shenlong cannot Onslaught and make his damage irreducible at the same time so even if he hit Kang for severe twice it would take a minimum of 2 actions to kill him and my opponent did not want to leave Shenlong in the Negation Aura surrounded by Focused Railworkers and next to a Scrap marker that Mei Feng could easily Railwalk to. He did not believe that trading Shenlong for Kang was a good trade. So instead he killed the Effigy and backed off to his side of the board in the direction of Neil Henry who I had sent down the right flank. He did not know I had Claim Jump on Kang, or that would probably have changed things. 

I then had the Metal Gamin I threw turn 1 walk twice into the center of the board, where my opponent's Emissary promptly murdered it. This created 3 scrap markers, of which Kang had his pick to Railwalk to, so I saved his activation until last to guarantee Claim Jump. 

Turn 3 I activated Kang early and Railwalked twice to get him as far away as possible, and he Railwalked back into the center on turn 5. 

The reasons I won were:

1. I was able to pull Shenlong far to the right with my inital placement of Kang and Neil, allowing me to score / threaten to score on the left so he spent a lot of Shen's AP walking

2. I was able to keep Yassunori on 1 hp to kill him at an opportune time thanks to the Railworker's ability to apply Stunned as a bonus action, while my opponent killed too many of my models in the first 2 Turns (Metal Gamin, Railworker, Effigy, and Neil)

3. Even after all this, I won by 1 pt because Shenlong flipped 6 weak cards in a row, failing to kill the Forgeling and denying him a Reckoning point as well as failing his defense against a Railworker with Focused 2 twice, scoring me my 3rd Reckoning.

My opponent scored 2 points for Deliver a Message and 1 Point for Claim Jump on the Emissary. He scored 1 for Reckoning, I scored 3. 

So yea sorry if this post doesnt belong here. I didnt intend to garner this much attention. 

[admiralvorkraft]

No need to apologize, that sounds like a really interesting game. Good counterplay on your part, it bites that you still had to get INCREDIBLY lucky at the end there.

[Ogid]

15 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Yes, but what I mean is I physically encircled my models so that his base could not fit within an inch of them

Lol, glad it worked, but you took a big risk there. The disregarded High River Style would had been your doom if he decided to go for the lowest defense non-H2W minion/enforcer (something unable to use SS to prevent the negative in the damage flip SS use) and start fishing for severe damage with Flaming Dragon Kick (extra danger if he got some Focused before from a Tanuki or something like that).

That's 5 damage for the target, 4 for the one catched in the blast AND Burning+2 for everyone.

[Mycellanious]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

Lol, glad it worked, but you took a big risk there. The disregarded High River Style would had been your doom if he decided to go for the lowest defense non-H2W minion/enforcer (something unable to use SS to prevent the negative in the damage flip SS use) and start fishing for severe damage with Flaming Dragon Kick (extra danger if he got some Focused before from a Tanuki or something like that).

That's 5 damage for the target, 4 for the one catched in the blast AND Burning+2 for everyone.

That wasnt a risk because he did the trick where he loaded up 4 distracted on Shen for Fermented River Style, so he was locked into that one 

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

That wasnt a risk because he did the trick where he loaded up 4 distracted on Shen for Fermented River Style, so he was locked into that one

Ok, it makes sense then. That's one of the reasons I don't like that opening unless going vs a ton of Manipulative/H2W; being predictable is exploitable; Distracted+3 is probably the magic number to keep it versatile tho, it let's you use drunken 11'' charge plus onslaught and then swap if needed.

[katadder]

Yeah shenlong players have to be careful with that. But bunching up you have to be careful of his ranged attack and thunder archers blasting onto you.

Although I am guessing alot of people are not taking them, or dont seem to be

[Morgan Vening]

On 12/23/2019 at 5:32 AM, Gnomezilla said:

@Meliondor so far the Guildies who have placed well in tournaments have used Hoffman, Nellie, Lucius, Lady Justice, and very recently Sonnia, in roughly that order of frequency. (Basse and Hoffman have had more play in their other factions.)

Wait, what?

I heard someone used an Explorer's Guild crew in a tournament, but this is just a strange statement to me. Playing a faction where you only get Keyword and two non-Keyword models (Second Master and Totem) and no Upgrades or Versatiles, as being more successful, is just hilarious.

[4thstringer]

5 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Wait, what?

I heard someone used an Explorer's Guild crew in a tournament, but this is just a strange statement to me. Playing a faction where you only get Keyword and two non-Keyword models (Second Master and Totem) and no Upgrades or Versatiles, as being more successful, is just hilarious.

I think it's more a comment that basse has been played more in explorer than in guild.  Dave brown alone has seen to that.