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3 buffs, 3 nerfs... a lot of theory


Nagi21

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1 hour ago, esqulax said:


Black Blood Shamans along with everything that does pulse focus. My number one biggest problem with M3 is that focus doesn't decay at the end of the turn. I really feel that this is a change that needs to be made, otherwise turtling and spamming focus can be extremely unfun to play
 

I don’t agree at all with that.  It would probably break several crews, Perdita and Nekima at the top of the list.  Focus spam is the only thing keeping those viable in most games.

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1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

I don’t agree at all with that.  It would probably break several crews, Perdita and Nekima at the top of the list.  Focus spam is the only thing keeping those viable in most games.

Then those crews need to be changed. Especially Nekima if you think she can't be viable without her entire crew having 2-3 focus on turn one. 

I could go into a long, long rant about why the change to focus has been a bad thing for Malifaux, but I will try to keep it short. Pulse focus is a broken mechanic because it is so action efficient, but the real problem comes from how the new focus rewards a camping play style. 

In a strategy like Reckoning where nothing forces you up the table, it is much better to simply have your models concentrate and wait for your opponent to come to you. 

Ofc when your opponent sees what you are doing he might start doing the same leading to a game that begins with both players taking turns walking a model and focusing. 

This will be a non issue in games where the strategy and schemes dictate that you must be very aggressive, but in games where they don't it can have a really negative influence on the game. 

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Sounds to me like an issue that can be fixed via gaining grounds. If too many games involve a pool that doesn't require you to proactively cross the board, something bigger has gone wrong.

I haven't found focus stacking to be overly useful in my ressers forgotten crew, but maybe it is an exception. It is quite common for models to die with 3+ focus if I stack it.

Not to mention you can use condition removal on it.

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3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sounds to me like an issue that can be fixed via gaining grounds. If too many games involve a pool that doesn't require you to proactively cross the board, something bigger has gone wrong.

I haven't found focus stacking to be overly useful in my ressers forgotten crew, but maybe it is an exception. It is quite common for models to die with 3+ focus if I stack it.

Not to mention you can use condition removal on it.

I also haven't found focus to be overpowered, compared to the nasty combos of 2e most of 3e seems very reasonable to me, allowing for far fewer negative experiences but still leaving some design space to exploit (after all any game is about learning to exploit the rules imo) 

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4 hours ago, esqulax said:

Then those crews need to be changed. Especially Nekima if you think she can't be viable without her entire crew having 2-3 focus on turn one. 

I could go into a long, long rant about why the change to focus has been a bad thing for Malifaux, but I will try to keep it short. Pulse focus is a broken mechanic because it is so action efficient, but the real problem comes from how the new focus rewards a camping play style. 

I definitely don't see the camping problem you're hinting at in any games across multiple factions... even those with stuff like Katanaka gunlines.

Focus may (extra emphasis) need to be tweaked a little... say only getting either + on attack or damage, not both.  I don't particularly care about that with Nekima since most of the time focus is used for keeping me entire defense 5 squishy crew alive.  

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28 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

 

Focus may (extra emphasis) need to be tweaked a little... say only getting either + on attack or damage, not both. 

IMO, it is a great part of Malifaux's design that generally attacking is more rewarding than trying to stop attacks. Taking away the attack bonus would make it even worse.

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9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sounds to me like an issue that can be fixed via gaining grounds. If too many games involve a pool that doesn't require you to proactively cross the board, something bigger has gone wrong.

I haven't found focus stacking to be overly useful in my ressers forgotten crew, but maybe it is an exception. It is quite common for models to die with 3+ focus if I stack it.

Not to mention you can use condition removal on it.

It can definitely be fixed via gaining grounds too, but I don't think there is a problem with having a possibility of scheme pools where you can play defensive. It just doesn't work with the way focus currently works. I would much rather see a change to focus than having all schemes and strats be aggressive. 

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

IMO, it is a great part of Malifaux's design that generally attacking is more rewarding than trying to stop attacks. Taking away the attack bonus would make it even worse.

I agree that is the way it should be, but as it currently is, it is often better to play defensive than aggressive which imo is a mistake. 

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@esqulax Interesting points. Some of these require changes to the entire game; not only in NVB: Stitched is good, but is far from the best summon (or summon/summoner pair) and BBS pulse is also good, but is also far from being the best Focused Pulsing ability. Both of those mechanics are very powerful but at the same time they have their niche; in a pool where clasing is favored, then the best damage combos are going to show up and that should be true for both players; but bringing a focused pulse crew into a schemy pool is going to backfire. Focused pulse is powerful but I'm not sure if it's out of control and same with summoning, very powerful mechanic but it doesn't seem to be dominating (imo).

Serena is very good, but the problem is probably more the lack of a cheaper healing and condition removal counterpart; in NVB we lack good cheap supports like steward or tanukis; with one of these in the faction Serena won't show up that much. It's kind of simmilar to Sun Quiang in TT, that model is bonkers but having Tanukis as pocket healers, players only go the extra mile and hire him when they really need it.

Zoraida mulligan has more counterplay that other drawing mechanic in the game that only affect one crew, versus her you know she is going to do that so you can frontload your damage a bit and leave her with the choice between refilling your hand and potentially give you good cards or not using it. Hoarding big cards for that last activation play is not going to work versus her.

Lelu/Lilitu. I do like Lelu, his sister is the weak link. Not sure if it's a oportunity cost problem tho. Lilitu with Inhuman Reflexes would be decent versus mele crew with range 1; but no one will put that upgrade on her having Matures, Hayreddin and Nekima in the same crew. So I agree here, she could get something else.

About Woes... they are a bit glassy but seems to be in a decent place; Candy is good but I don't think she need a nerf and the rest of the woes are legit without more buffs.

Tots, Bultungins, Bloodwretch and Maurice totally agree; those needs something else.

Waldgeist, Rattler and Hounds have their uses, but they could take an small buff without becoming top notch.

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Zoraida mulligan has more counterplay that other drawing mechanic in the game that only affect one crew, versus her you know she is going to do that so you can frontload your damage a bit and leave her with the choice between refilling your hand and potentially give you good cards or not using it. Hoarding big cards for that last activation play is not going to work versus her.

I've had an opponent try this against me. It did not end well.

Zoraida could activate at any time and wheel the hands. If you rely on her doing it and blow your good cards early, she won't do it. If you leave a gap, she can sneak it in at anytime.

There is an information advantage - she doesn't have to decide what to do until she knows exactly what the opponent has been up to.

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4 minutes ago, Ogid said:

@esqulax Interesting points. Some of these require changes to the entire game; not only in NVB: Stitched is good, but is far from the best summon (or summon/summoner pair) and BBS pulse is also good, but is also far from being the best Focused Pulsing ability. Both of those mechanics are very powerful but at the same time they have their niche; in a pool where clasing is favored, then the best damage combos are going to show up and that should be true for both players; but bringing a focused pulse crew into a schemy pool is going to backfire. Focused pulse is powerful but I'm not sure if it's out of control and same with summoning, very powerful mechanic but it doesn't seem to be dominating (imo).

Serena is very good, but the problem is probably more the lack of a cheaper healing and condition removal counterpart; in NVB we lack good cheap supports like steward or tanukis; with one of these in the faction Serena won't show up that much. It's kind of simmilar to Sun Quiang in TT, that model is bonkers but having Tanukis as pocket healers, players only go the extra mile and hire him when they really need it.

Zoraida mulligan has more counterplay that other drawing mechanic in the game that only affect one crew, versus her you know she is going to do that so you can frontload your damage a bit and leave her with the choice between refilling your hand and potentially give you good cards or not using it. Hoarding big cards for that last activation play is not going to work versus her.

Lelu/Lilitu. I do like Lelu, his sister is the weak link. Not sure if it's a oportunity cost problem tho. Lilitu with Inhuman Reflexes would be decent versus mele crew with range 1; but no one will put that upgrade on her having Matures, Hayreddin and Nekima in the same crew. So I agree here, she could get something else.

About Woes... they are a bit glassy but seems to be in a decent place; Candy is good but I don't think she need a nerf and the rest of the woes are legit without more buffs.

Tots, Bultungins, Bloodwretch and Maurice totally agree; those needs something else.

Waldgeist, Rattler and Hounds have their uses, but they could take an small buff without becoming top notch.

Yeah, not all of my points can be easily fixed and you are definitely right about Serena. I just still think it is a shame when a model is so strong and unique within the faction that it becomes a stable in every crew. 

Can you tell me what uses you have found for Waldgeists, Rattler and Hounds that isn't better filled by something else? Hounds main role seem to be as a 3ss scheme runner, which can definitely be good, but we already have Wicked Dolls for that and they have stealth and can give out adversary. (Not saying that you are wrong that they have their use, I am just curious what it would be) 


Also I think Dreamer/Stitched and BBS are up there in the top with summons and pulse focus spamming. Who do you think have them beat ? 

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On 1/8/2020 at 11:15 AM, esqulax said:

Can you tell me what uses you have found for Waldgeists, Rattler and Hounds that isn't better filled by something else? Hounds main role seem to be as a 3ss scheme runner, which can definitely be good, but we already have Wicked Dolls for that and they have stealth and can give out adversary. (Not saying that you are wrong that they have their use, I am just curious what it would be)

Waldgeists, in a Fae crew (not sure about its role in a Zoraida's crew) is the only non-master model that can double interact in one activation; that's good for schemes that need several markers nearby and having some conditional regeneration is useful (for idols or for being attacked by Aeslin to use "Drawn Out Secrets" for example). It's also nice when you need extra underbrushes as it can use ambush twice out one created underbrush and Walk+Underbrush+Ambush is 7'' while a knight will only advance 5'' (and that ambush is also nice to reposition if you need that scheme in that particular position and while you are on it you can also create an underbrush). They ignore all kind of severe terrain and will heal out of them, not only underbrushes, that's also to consider in some matchs and for including models like the Emissary or WW. That's the main thing it brings, but its triggers are also neat (very control focused and able to displace models not near of an underbrush) and are kind of tanky. For pure tarpits Knights are way better. For scheme dolls are cheaper and could also double scheme with an friendly model in the right position, but they have a harder time with underbrushes and doesn't synergize that well with the crew. They aren't amazing but with things like detonate charges or Harness can be worth a try (and funnily enought one of them may also complete Breakthrough by itself or fake it to make the other player send something to defend)

Rattler, with Marcus is a tankier runner/runner hunter than Sabers and with Armor mutation can be very hard to kill (specially when using all its out of activation mobility and activate early in the turn to keep shielded+2 up); it can also pick off models around its cost that have no actions to disengage quite well; having Wicked is also useful to threat with Adversary (serrated mutation) to models that want to disengage. A neat thing is they value mutations not that good for beaters like the cat, Rougarou or Cojo so they complement other offensive beast well. And an extra Poison source for the Scorpius. It's true it has a tough competition with all the amazing cost 8 beast of Marcus tho. Outside of a Marcus crew with the OOK tax and without mutations is harder to justify picking it... I'd probably take a Young Nephillim for OOK scheme duty if I needed an around 8SS model for that role... I still want to try them with Pandora (with Wicked it can trigger Misery pings also in the enemie's activation... but again I'm not sure about them for the OOK tax and lack of mutations in that crew, I'd probably try first the Grootslang for Slow + Wicked first)

Hounds, only in a Nephilim crew for having some cheap AP to interact near of the crew. They are Nephilims so it can get near of the crew, drop corpses that can be used to heal/promote other nephs (unlike dolls), trigger Nekima aura (so free Movement + Attack for her crew if they are killed near) and they are also disposable Pustule/Dropped from Above targets that can be killed on purpose to trigger said aura; and if attacked near of the crew will heal other models thanks to Hayreddin aura. With Focused+1 (from BBS) the moderate/severe damage is legit for a 3SS model and has some utility with Annoying and Hunting Partner. These are basicaly cheap APs and cannon fodder with high synergy with the crew that you'll want near of Nekima/Hayreddin to put the other player in a lose-lose situation, either leave them alone with how annoying and action efficient they are or kill them and heal other nearby Neph, generate a corpse that the crew will use to heal/pulse focused and trigger a Nekima/Hayreddin/Mature attack. Outside of Nephilims are not worth it and for a pure isolated scheme runner role there are better models (but they could be a good scheme partner for a Young Neph tho)

On 1/8/2020 at 11:15 AM, esqulax said:

Also I think Dreamer/Stitched and BBS are up there in the top with summons and pulse focus spamming. Who do you think have them beat ? 

For Combat summons summoned from a Master there are way better things: Jorogumos, Goryos, Golems, Executioners...

Summoned not from a Master they are one of the best combat summons imo (Rabble Rissers being the other contender); however only Zoraida (and Collodi counting DMH) can generate scrap for free; the rest of the crews need either killing dolls so it'd cost 3 SS for stitched plus the card and the summoner AP or getting kills with WW nearby which isn't reliable; other factions can get the corpses, scrap for free way easier than NVB. Also other summons brings different things than damage that are also very valuable. Minako with Katashiros are a terrific pair of threatening summoner and scheme runners that can also summon a Wanyudo is the other player missplays versus her. Toshiro + Ashigaru are a very good support/bodyguard pair that will make very hard to kill the enemy key models while also giving healing, focused and :+flip (plus a reliquary if Toshiro is killed), the forgotten marshal is a bit weaker but is also cheaper and has the flexibility to summon 3 different models without needing any resource more than cards (maybe healing) and including from a decent combat summon to scheme runners.

Compared with these summoners WW/Vasi + Stitcheds have their own strenghts but I won't say they are categorically better.

 

For Focused Spam browinsing the cards you got me a bit in this one; BBS is one of the best... but from the top of my head Mah Tucket's Creative Cursing is also quite good and in RES they have easier access to corpses and more flexibility in crew building being Blasphemous Ritual in an upgrade and in 2 models... I was thinking in different things when I wrote the above, like in cheap models able to boost other models without needing that much set up or clumping (that hurts in several pools), things like Tanukis, the mobile toolkit, Kunoichis or Bokors and in other Focused-like mechanics more efficient like Flicker or the Old Major aura.

However NVB is more glassy, mele focused and less interaction efficient than other factions (outside double faction masters that have things like Silurids, False Witness or Sabertooths), so having some good offensive tools avaliable is necessary to stay relevant.

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18 hours ago, Ogid said:

Zoraida mulligan has more counterplay that other drawing mechanic in the game that only affect one crew, versus her you know she is going to do that so you can frontload your damage a bit and leave her with the choice between refilling your hand and potentially give you good cards or not using it. Hoarding big cards for that last activation play is not going to work versus her.

Lelu/Lilitu. I do like Lelu, his sister is the weak link. Not sure if it's a oportunity cost problem tho. Lilitu with Inhuman Reflexes would be decent versus mele crew with range 1; but no one will put that upgrade on her having Matures, Hayreddin and Nekima in the same crew. So I agree here, she could get something else.

About Woes... they are a bit glassy but seems to be in a decent place; Candy is good but I don't think she need a nerf and the rest of the woes are legit without more buffs.

Tots, Bultungins, Bloodwretch and Maurice totally agree; those needs something else.

Waldgeist, Rattler and Hounds have their uses, but they could take an small buff without becoming top notch.

Zoraida's ability is one that is really overestimated when it comes to use of counterplay.  It rarely causes issue for the enemy due to the odds, and should just be used to replenish the Zoraida's players hand when/if needed.  

The twins are just not worth the squeeze, especially with the healing rules as written, and the unclear damage timings involving black blood and healing auras.  If wyrd would release a faq or errata (it's only been a year... *rolls eyes*), then maybe they'd get some use, but they just are useless ss right now.

Woes costing more than 6ss are in a good place; woes between cost 4 and 6 are waaaaay too squishy to be of any use.  Sure it (usually) takes two AP to kill something like a sorrow, but with the way auras work now, that's 2 ap for a chunk of pandora's bubble.  The lower cost woes need some survivability or something to make them useful except in edge cases (maybe a misery size buff to keep them farther back).  Kade, Candy, Carver, all good but woe crews seem to just be overall better with higher cost elite models.

Bultungins are... borderline.  They really just need one tiny thing either defensively, mobility, or offensively to be good at 5ss.  Maurice is kind of a weird one.  He looks bad on paper but that 3" cover aura is a real lifesaver in a few matchups (turns out df6 is pretty good vs shooty crews not named Ortega).  Other than that he's trash so really he just needs to be at 6ss to make him viable as a pocket pick, a bit more as a regular but that's half-bloods in general (Angel aside).  Tots... no idea why they were made 4ss and lost flay.  I'm pretty sure someone at Wyrd really just does not like nephilim specifically.

Waldgeist, Rattler, and Hounds are alright in their specific crews for very specific reasons.  Not every model needs to be useful in every crew.  Maybe a small buff to waldgeists but I'm not sure what... maybe armor 2 like they used to be?

One model I will say needs a buff in an indirect way: Mysterious Emissary.  It's useful with Titania... that's it.  Nobody else in the faction benefits from it at all.  He needs something to make him useful with other crews (he doesn't even make the markers he benefits from to start).

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I agree with your point but the woes minions; they aren't squishy for 4-6SS models, there are tankier things like Coryphees, test subjects or undead models but they aren't in the squishy side. In fact a sorrow is hard to swallow for models around its cost and a Lyssa near of an Ice Pilar is also hard to remove for a 4SS model (I want to try a Pandora crew with 2 Lyssas and a Cyclops to see how it works)

About the Emissary, It can also be useful with Pandora to add a tanky model that can give conditions and control well and to use Mysery to move models into the markers he creates, maybe with Savages having Lyssas with Oportunistic (Staggered), Bultungins and chip healing from Cyclops. Zoraida has underbrushes and Lairs that also go well with him. I want to try him with Dreamer's spiders dropping webs left and right and moving models into them having also incorporeal models that ignore the hazardous terrain he creates (and this could also be tried in a Marcus crew having also severe terrain creators, beasts with Pushes to use the hazardous and mobility to avoid the markers)...

The Emissary is tanky, has nice control and his aura is also quite good (but with the mele focus of the faction is harder to make good use of it tho). But I maybe miss a bit more of damage for a 10SS model and more reliability creating markers; nothing huge, just increasing the severe damage of both attacks by 1 and adding a blast to the weak damage of roots from below would do it. As it is is Ok tho.

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5 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

 

Waldgeist, Rattler, and Hounds are alright in their specific crews for very specific reasons.  Not every model needs to be useful in every crew.  Maybe a small buff to waldgeists but I'm not sure what... maybe armor 2 like they used to be?

I feel like Waldgeists having armor 2 would be a good fix. It would also give us a way of scoring hold up their forces without playing Dreamer. 

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2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I agree with your point but the woes minions; they aren't squishy for 4-6SS models, there are tankier things like Coryphees, test subjects or undead models but they aren't in the squishy side. In fact a sorrow is hard to swallow for models around its cost and a Lyssa near of an Ice Pilar is also hard to remove for a 4SS model (I want to try a Pandora crew with 2 Lyssas and a Cyclops to see how it works)

About the Emissary, It can also be useful with Pandora to add a tanky model that can give conditions and control well and to use Mysery to move models into the markers he creates, maybe with Savages having Lyssas with Oportunistic (Staggered), Bultungins and chip healing from Cyclops. Zoraida has underbrushes and Lairs that also go well with him. I want to try him with Dreamer's spiders dropping webs left and right and moving models into them having also incorporeal models that ignore the hazardous terrain he creates (and this could also be tried in a Marcus crew having also severe terrain creators, beasts with Pushes to use the hazardous and mobility to avoid the markers)...

The Emissary is tanky, has nice control and his aura is also quite good (but with the mele focus of the faction is harder to make good use of it tho). But I maybe miss a bit more of damage for a 10SS model and more reliability creating markers; nothing huge, just increasing the severe damage of both attacks by 1 and adding a blast to the weak damage of roots from below would do it. As it is is Ok tho.

The inherent problem with the low cost woe minions (Iggy aside), is that they're not going up against models around their cost.  Since the range on misery is only 6" they're more often than not forced to stay around Pandora and company to support the main point of the crew (the sadness bubble of death).  They're not particularly good on their own vs dedicated schemers of the same cost, and their kit does not suit soloing alone somewhere either.  This puts them in the death zone of higher cost models that can murder them in two hits easily.  I mean think of it like ironsides.  Is a gunsmith good on it's own?  Not really since it would lose its grit and unionized, and all the other benefits that come with protection vs a different 7 stone minion (Cyclops and Insidious are the first two that come to mind).

For the Emissary, with Dora she already has plenty of high cost tanky models that give out conditions or do just as well a job (Teddy's the first that comes to mind).  Only one trigger gives staggered for lyssa to use, plus savage doesn't need another tanky 50mm base.  Zoraida could be useful but he competes with a lot for her and I don't see the upside for him vs something like a Mature in her case (Same with nekima and co).  The issue is he's expensive and his hungry land markers affect you as much as your opponent as well.

Also his aura isn't very good either (almost certainly the worst of the emissaries).  It only works if you are the one losing said duel, and does nothing if your opponent just cheats up when he's losing before it's your turn to cheat.  Otherwise it becomes this weird bluffing game where suddenly you need to be a pro poker player to get consistent use from it. 

Like I said he's fine in Fae, but he needs something else to be even considered over the other options for other crews.

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7 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

The twins are just not worth the squeeze, especially with the healing rules as written, and the unclear damage timings involving black blood and healing auras.  If wyrd would release a faq or errata (it's only been a year... *rolls eyes*), then maybe they'd get some use, but they just are useless ss right now.

One model I will say needs a buff in an indirect way: Mysterious Emissary.  It's useful with Titania... that's it.  Nobody else in the faction benefits from it at all.  He needs something to make him useful with other crews (he doesn't even make the markers he benefits from to start).

The game has been released just over 6 months, not a year.

Part of the Emissarys power is based on the table having severe terrain. So if you are normally playing on a table with lots of severe then its going to seem better. If you play on a table with little to no severe terrain its going to seem lackluster (unless you play a crew that will provide severe terrain for it).

Would you pick it over Teddy for Pandora if you were playing on a table with lots of severe Forests already?

And the ability to drop hazardous markers underneath a model is one that is very strong in my mind. That's at least 1 extra damage that model is going to take if they just walk out of it. If they are in a fight already, then it can quickly add up.

(I also rate the cheating face down aura higher than you. Sure it only coms into play  in about 50% of the duels, but it complelty screws over the advantage the opponent was getting for winning the initial flip. Yes it is based on a bluff, but it makes every card you cheat from your hand a risk for your opponent and removes the certainty they used to have which can force them to waste resources. )

 

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1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

The inherent problem with the low cost woe minions (Iggy aside), is that they're not going up against models around their cost.  Since the range on misery is only 6" they're more often than not forced to stay around Pandora and company to support the main point of the crew (the sadness bubble of death).  They're not particularly good on their own vs dedicated schemers of the same cost, and their kit does not suit soloing alone somewhere either.  This puts them in the death zone of higher cost models that can murder them in two hits easily.  I mean think of it like ironsides.  Is a gunsmith good on it's own?  Not really since it would lose its grit and unionized, and all the other benefits that come with protection vs a different 7 stone minion (Cyclops and Insidious are the first two that come to mind).

For the Emissary, with Dora she already has plenty of high cost tanky models that give out conditions or do just as well a job (Teddy's the first that comes to mind).  Only one trigger gives staggered for lyssa to use, plus savage doesn't need another tanky 50mm base.  Zoraida could be useful but he competes with a lot for her and I don't see the upside for him vs something like a Mature in her case (Same with nekima and co).  The issue is he's expensive and his hungry land markers affect you as much as your opponent as well.

Also his aura isn't very good either (almost certainly the worst of the emissaries).  It only works if you are the one losing said duel, and does nothing if your opponent just cheats up when he's losing before it's your turn to cheat.  Otherwise it becomes this weird bluffing game where suddenly you need to be a pro poker player to get consistent use from it. 

Like I said he's fine in Fae, but he needs something else to be even considered over the other options for other crews.

You have a point in how tight is the competition for a 10SS model in a crew, there are very good options around that cost and all the Emissary tankiness and control may lose versus what other models have to offer, he isn't a bad model per se but I can see why he mostly shows up with Titania. The Emissary aura is fun for mindgames tho, you may cheat a weak card to try to trick the other player into wasting a good card in a defense or can try to sneak a really nasty suit with a not so high card for a trigger without giving the other player the ability to use that big card to stop it. There are more powerful auras for sure, but I do like this one.

With Savages, I was also thinking in Cyclops, they may give staggered to models around Pilars with no TN and the Emissary attacks vs Mv and can also heal models around pilars and that's great for a H2K model.

The Woes minion... most 4-6SS models will die versus dedicated beaters but if that beater dived Pandy's bubble to kill a Lyssa or a Sorrow... that will leave him vulnerable to all the Woes ping damage and conditions and that's a big win for Pandora. Some cheap APs and extra Misery auras are good to have around imo, but nothing stop a player for going all stars when making a woe crew.

  • Lyssas are nice for 4SS models, Df5 and Wp5 is good for a model of that cost, bring it is stat 5 and can be used to both reposition allies (specially Pandy and Candy that can't hit it after) or try to bring enemies into the bubble. And they even have 2 bonus actions, bad stat in startle but useful if something get near of the Poltergeist (and also can be used to remove stunned or staggered from your own models); with an Ice pilar they get also Shielded+1 and some chip healing!.
  • Sorrows are useful both near of the crew but also away from it. They can trigger their own Mysery with Glimpse of Insanity and a model around its cost with the tipical 2/3/4 damage track won't do well versus incorporeal plus Life leech, specially if the Sorrow has the jump on it and manage to give it stunned first to shut down nasty triggers, and if the stunned connect its own damage track is also decent for a 5SS model (2/3/5); plus stunned can really ruin those 5-6 SS schemers relying in leap or simmilar to stay efficient and Mysery loves Company is great to give them a head start, chase or being able to return quickly to the main bubble. Also being able to trigger Misery can be used to disengage. For me this is another decent model.
  • Aversion: Not sure yet, I need to test this one before.
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4 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

  • Aversion: Not sure yet, I need to test this one before.

I don't think aversions need any help, so far I've found them a very effective bodyguard for Pandy/Poltergeist, as well as a reliable way of denying Claim Jump or other positioning schemes. Based on his performance I would say the aversion seems like a key piece of the Woe keyword

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15 hours ago, Adran said:

Would you pick it over Teddy for Pandora if you were playing on a table with lots of severe Forests already?

No because A) Teddy synergizes with Pandora more (fairer to say Emissary synergizes less) and 2) nobody I play competitively would have a massive blob of severe terrain because everyone's familiar with Titania and Aeslin shenanigans with those.

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31 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

No because A) Teddy synergizes with Pandora more (fairer to say Emissary synergizes less) and 2) nobody I play competitively would have a massive blob of severe terrain because everyone's familiar with Titania and Aeslin shenanigans with those.

Something like 32% or more of the table should be covered in terrain that affects movement, from memory.

So do you just do lots of impassable terrain?

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23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Something like 32% or more of the table should be covered in terrain that affects movement, from memory.

So do you just do lots of impassable terrain?

More or less.  Larger terrain is broken into sections because again, everyone knows how badly I can abuse that with Titania

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3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

No because A) Teddy synergizes with Pandora more (fairer to say Emissary synergizes less) and 2) nobody I play competitively would have a massive blob of severe terrain because everyone's familiar with Titania and Aeslin shenanigans with those.

If I was making a forest board for M3 rules I would use multiple sections of forest as individual clumps. Nothing would be more than 4" square or so (to avoid the worse of the abuses), but I would not object to making a board that was covered in lots of Severe patches for an event. I do like the boards to have a range of different challenges at the events I play to try and encourage people to build the list to deal with those challenges .  (That said, the argument of No, I wouldn't play Pandora on that board, I'd play Titania because she'd do much better is a fair counter.  It does lead to the slightly circular argument that you pick the emissary in games that suit it, but the games that suit it are also the games that suit Titania. ).

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Funnily enough, most of Titania's crew ignores just Underbrushes, not concealment and severe terrain in general (It seems those Fae are only used to their own Wildlands!). So a "neutral" forest (asuming is Concealing Severe or Concealing Dense Severe) will also hinder her crew. She may navigate that map easily thanks to Flight, but the only other keyword model that will perform well there are Waldgeists thanks to Planted Roots; the rest of the models will be stuck in forests as hard as the other crew (Aeslin for example can't flight and her spell doesn't ignore concealment like Titania's).

She could do well there with a core of 1 or 2 Waldegeist, Rider and Emissary tho but other crews like Nephs (lots of flying models), the Dreamer (going incorporeal heavy and with the spiders), Marcus (unimpeded, wings mutation and leap) or Zoraida (Flight, unimpeded, planted roots, leaps...) could do also quite well in that map, and the emissary could be a good pick in any of these if the map has so much concealing severe terrain.

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48 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 (Aeslin for example can't flight and her spell doesn't ignore concealment like Titania's).

  Aeslin ignores LOS from any severe terrain she's touching so technically she is also somewhat immune to concealment to a more limited degree, same with the waldgeists, except their in a... weak spot right now.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

  (That said, the argument of No, I wouldn't play Pandora on that board, I'd play Titania because she'd do much better is a fair counter.  It does lead to the slightly circular argument that you pick the emissary in games that suit it, but the games that suit it are also the games that suit Titania. ).

This is probably the biggest reason honestly.

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