3 buffs, 3 nerfs... a lot of theory

[Nagi21]

Earlier tonight I had a thought that for all the talk about nerfs and buffs and OP and trash models, it's very rare that two people see the same thing the same.  One might say TT are too strong, one might say NVB are too strong, and really if everyone had their way, nothing or everything would change.  Anyway, I was curious as to the community's opinion on the NVB faction, so I came up with a little thought exercise.  What 3 things would you buff and how, and what 3 things would you nerf and how?  I'm just curious to see if there's any consensus on the strong and weak points of the faction.

Two things: 

1) Please try to be civil...

2) Please don't let this turn into a massive discussion about stitched.  We know.  There's a thread on that.  Go there.  List it if you want. 

[FrostHunter]

Buffs:

- Waldgeists - is some kind of scheme runner (for Fae, Zoraida has Silurids for this) thanks to its ability to drop two scheme markers in one activation mixed with some kind of tankiness, but still, i just overlap them for autumn knights (for 1ss almost all stats +1 and they have much more funny things - love mockery), maybe some kind of trigger to germinate like once per activation - place waldgeist b2b with/into created marker (buffing his scheme runner aspect, but it would place Bultungin in weird place) or once per activation - make free attack action if created marker is b2b with enemy model would help them and make them more fun/interesting? OR i couldn't resist - give them totally OP action/ability that allows them to convert underbrush markers into hazardous.

Or

- Bultungin - without pack mentality they die to easy, maybe something like - after friendly model with the same name ends its activation in 10" from this model you can discard a card to activate this model immediately? It could give them a few funny options to run close together and benefit from pack mentality.

 

- Half-Bloods - i don't know when and why i should hire them instead of other models from keyword or Serena, but i don't have slightest idea how to buff them.

 

Nerfs:

- there is thread on that unlucky model.

- Vasilisa and (in some degree Widow Weaver if nerfing Careful Assembly) - connected with nerf above and the first one have a little too much synergy with puppets for my personal taste, maybe remade Careful Assembly to attach summon upgrade rather than giving slow (plentiful 2 Summoned models gains some minor weaknes/not leaving scrap after dying)?

Or

-Voodoo Doll - doesn't leave scrap marker after dying from Served its Purpose? (My free Gator Snack!)

 

PS. if there would be some kind of embarassing mistakes in my grammar/vocabulary please point them to me, my motherlanguage's logic interfere too much with english in my mind.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, FrostHunter said:

Buffs

- Half-Bloods - i don't know when and why i should hire them instead of other models from keyword or Serena, but i don't have slightest idea how to buff them.

FWIW, a Freikorps player said in the other forum that Half-Blood are the best (Neverborn) keyword against his crew. And given that they are versatile for all Neverborn, they at least have SOME uses.

[Ezuma]

I have some blind spots admittedly, although I own most but not all of the Neverborn, I have never used angel eyes or the starter set half-bloods 

I don't think we need to tweak that many models, mostly the game seems very balanced to me. But for the sake of discussion:

 To nerf, I would say that

 1. Stitched could be 1ss more or unable to cheat the damage on 'gamble'.

 2-3. Zoraida and Vasilisa could maybe be toned down too but no idea how or what needs to change.  

To Buff:

1. Bultungins. They have some cool tricks but 5ss feels like a lot for something so fragile. A point lower however would likely be a bit too cheap, so I think giving them another defensive ability (hard to wound say, keeping in theme) and keeping them at 5ss might be enough.

2. Terror tots seem rubbish to me, I struggle to justify them when you consider a corrupted hound does the same job for 3ss, and a changeling does so much more for the same cost. 

3. Waldgeists are much worse than in 2e, so I may be bitter, but they seem lacking at 6. They are much less tanky than before, I'm not sure they even qualify as tough now. They do have some handy abilities but I think another wound on them would make them a better pick without really pushing their power level all that much. 

Also considered the Mysterious Emissary as under-powered, but he has enough tricky triggers on him and abilities that I could see getting some work out of him in a Titania crew perhaps, although that puts a lot of pressure on cards. If her were a henchman it would be a whole other story, but as is he looks either below average, to perhaps average in the right crew. 

[Kharnage]

Buffs
1. Maurice. Give him an ability as a versatile model that everyone would want, like, a bonus action "Blood Oath: Friendly model only. Target model suffers 1 damage, and gains the Ruthless ability until the end phase." Lowkey synergizes with Nephilim cuz we like our plink damage, but also it covers the gaping hole of having only 2 ruthless models in faction. 
2. Blood Wretch. Just, give 'em Disguised. Straight up. 
3. Razorspine Rattler. Give 'em versatile, and Adaptive Evolution. That way we have our versatile scheme runner, and also they don't feel bad in Marcus crews for permanently claiming upgrades.
Nerfs:
1. Mmmhmm. You know what it is.
2. Mysterious Emissary's Hungry Land markers should go away at the end of turn.
3. Insidious Madness. Make their "remove your focus and give you distracted" move have a resist, like seduction. 

[FrostHunter]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

FWIW, a Freikorps player said in the other forum that Half-Blood are the best (Neverborn) keyword against his crew. And given that they are versatile for all Neverborn, they at least have SOME uses.

Never thought of that, from few years of experience i've never played againt Hulh Hogan and Outcasts are not very popularin my region, thanks for pointing this out.

[Nagi21]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

FWIW, a Freikorps player said in the other forum that Half-Blood are the best (Neverborn) keyword against his crew. And given that they are versatile for all Neverborn, they at least have SOME uses.

Why's that?  A lot of stuff evasion ignores?

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Why's that?  A lot of stuff evasion ignores?

Exactly! Can be tricky to play around if you have a crew based around it and someone declares Neverborn. Any crew could bring them in.

[Zebo]

7 hours ago, FrostHunter said:

Never thought of that, from few years of experience i've never played againt Hulh Hogan and Outcasts are not very popularin my region, thanks for pointing this out.

I wouldn't be too serious about that. The player said that Half-Blood was good because of all the area damage from Freikorps, but I would disagree that is their stronger feat, and I don't think Half Blood is the worst Neverborn's keyword versus them only for their Evasive. 

[Ogid]

Nerfs:

Waldweist, Rattler, Lilitu and Bultungin: Some of these are decent but people think they aren’t good, others are plain bad but some people still use them. Bad models should be bad so they meet the expectation of the players and we have legit pick when we want to be sure there is no way we can win a game. These should be nerfed until compared with them Blootwretchs look totally legit models; and then they should get nerfed a bit more (some players really play anything, we must be sure they are trully unplayable junk).

Angel Eyes (also maybe Tuco): Angel is performing way above the curve (in his keyword). Also is rumored that a new and totally overpowered Half-Blood keyword will be given to the Explorators society with broken synergies that will make even Blootwretchs looks fine. This meta warping event will make that any playable Half-Blood could single-handely dominate the game when played in that crew! A nerf today could save Malifaux tomorrow.

Hayreddin and Savages: These dudes deal unavoidable damage in area with Tactical actions! That’s a totally broken and NPE mechanic! Who do they think they are? Stitcheds? Nerf bat these guys until they wish they never left RES/their mountains.

Buffs:

Zoraida and Stitcheds: These 2 are disappointing players left and right. They read about them in the forums and then go to a game versus them expecting being stomped. When they win that game, those players don’t understand anything. Meeting expectations is important so these 2 models should be buffed until playing versus them is a miserable experience; every bit of possible counterplay should be removed and their SS cost reduced so there is no reason for not including them in every NVB crew. Also Stitched deals unavoidable damage with a Tactical action! That’s an awesome mechanic!

Hooded Rider and Fae Keyword: These 2 were late to their respective “let’s get free buffs for being riders/undead” parties: Hooded rider 5 suits should deal irreducible damage, deal slow, poison and also all allies in the area should get shielded+2, among other buffs; all Fae undead should get +1 or +2 Wds for no real reason.

Educate Nephilims: They could dominate the entire world with using some tools like Armor, Weapons, Necromancy and with tactics more complex than running towards an enemy and bleed all over them. Make them kidnap the “Vons” (Von Schill and Von Schootk) and turn them into Half-Blood so they can teach Nephs how to modern warfare and necro like true pros (and then Nerf these 2 into oblivion for being Half-Bloods of course). Go to that prision and use all the rhetoric learned from Schtook to talk Lilith into reason, add her to the ranks again with the promise that she will rule earth when they conquer it.

[Gnomezilla]

3 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Nerfs:

Waldweist, Rattler, Lilitu and Bultungin: Some of these are decent but people think they aren’t good, others are plain bad but some people still use them. Bad models should be bad so they meet the expectation of the players and we have legit pick when we want to be sure there is no way we can win a game. These should be nerfed until compared with them Blootwretchs look totally legit models; and then they should get nerfed a bit more (some players really play anything, we must be sure they are trully unplayable junk).

Angel Eyes (also maybe Tuco): Angel is performing way above the curve (in his keyword). Also is rumored that a new and totally overpowered Half-Blood keyword will be given to the Explorators society with broken synergies that will make even Blootwretchs looks fine. This meta warping event will make that any playable Half-Blood could single-handely dominate the game when played in that crew! A nerf today could save Malifaux tomorrow.

Hayreddin and Savages: These dudes deal unavoidable damage in area with Tactical actions! That’s a totally broken and NPE mechanic! Who do they think they are? Stitcheds? Nerf bat these guys until they wish they never left RES/their mountains.

Buffs:

Zoraida and Stitcheds: These 2 are disappointing players left and right. They read about them in the forums and then go to a game versus them expecting being stomped. When they win that game, those players don’t understand anything. Meeting expectations is important so these 2 models should be buffed until playing versus them is a miserable experience; every bit of possible counterplay should be removed and their SS cost reduced so there is no reason for not including them in every NVB crew. Also Stitched deals unavoidable damage with a Tactical action! That’s an awesome mechanic!

Hooded Rider and Fae Keyword: These 2 were late to their respective “let’s get free buffs for being riders/undead” parties: Hooded rider 5 suits should deal irreducible damage, deal slow, poison and also all allies in the area should get shielded+2, among other buffs; all Fae undead should get +1 or +2 Wds for no real reason.

Educate Nephilims: They could dominate the entire world with using some tools like Armor, Weapons, Necromancy and with tactics more complex than running towards an enemy and bleed all over them. Make them kidnap the “Vons” (Von Schill and Von Schootk) and turn them into Half-Blood so they can teach Nephs how to modern warfare and necro like true pros (and then Nerf these 2 into oblivion for being Half-Bloods of course). Go to that prision and use all the rhetoric learned from Schtook to talk Lilith into reason, add her to the ranks again with the promise that she will rule earth when they conquer it.

Io Saturnalia! 🤣

[solkan]

I say let the Stitched keep the ability to cheat that variable flip, but make it more interesting for everyone involved.

Reorder the events in Gamble Your Life to

Quote

Enemy only.  X is 3/4/5 (determined now).  This model and the target both flip over the top card of their Fate Deck, which cannot be Cheated.  The model with the lowest value flipped card (or the target, in the case of a tie), suffers X damage.

That would be a gamble.  Optionally, if that's not a big enough gamble, add another trigger with "When resolving, this action ignores armor."

It's a buff and a nerf.   

[Kharnage]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Nerfs:

Hayreddin and Savages:

Buffs:

Zoraida and Stitcheds:

Educate Nephilims:

*Incomprehensible snarling*  I'll feed you to the tots, I will! 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Nerfs:

1. Stitched as in the other thread.
2. Zoraida's discard hand/draw six should be start of activation and leader only.
3. Not sure a third one is needed.

If we have to buff something... 

1. Buff alps (partially to compensate for nerfing stitched). Maybe things like increase damage to 2/3/4, or give them triggers on biting insult (on your heels would be perfect).
2. Pandora isn't exactly weak, but buffing sorrows could be good. Increasing range on Misery loves company to 'within two inches of the target' would be pretty sweet, and make them have a role more like crooligans (but less powerful).
3. There seems to be a consensus that Lilitu might need a buff? It'd be great if instead of 'relish in blood', lilitus and lelus could summon their twins. Removing two corpses to summon a missing twin could be pretty awesome.

[Ogid]

A less tongue in cheek answer now

I wouldn’t nerf anything from NVB right now, the faction is not doing that well and there is no “must pick” models popping in every list; even the rider is a powerful model but not over the top. Zoraida already got a pretty big hit in the GG0 with the strategy/obey changes and it’s not doing that well in competitive (even in single master metas where she should be better as main master), I’d wait to see how she is doing now before nerfing her again. And stitched is a rara avis outside crews where it has synergy (even being summonable by a versatile) and at least in Dreamer playing 3 is not that common. I don’t want to rehash the stitched thread, if someone is curious in that thread there are opinions of both sides at least the first 4 pages (after that it derails a bit), it’s worth a look.

Changes/things to focus I would like to see:

Non leader masters is something that could get a good review (not only here, game-wide) to see if it’s ok or if it’s as busted as some say. This is important because the game cannot be perfectly balanced for all game modes, but it should be for the “standard” one and it is impossible to get good data if double master is not seen and played as just another tech choice. If there are master that overperforms as non-leaders, these can get their SS cost adjusted or some of their abilities/triggers/actions locked behind “leader only”.

What I would love to see is buffs to underwhelming models (already listed here and in the other errata proposal threads) and changes/new models that promote list diversity, not powerplay; especially at henchman level. Some examples from the top of my head:

• Thoon: Getting some way to reliably create Ice Pilars by himself at at least 6’’ away from him (my call would be reworking “Artic Pull” into an ability that creates a Pilar and then may pull it to deal the damage or leave it where it’s created). This will help him and will give some variability to Henchman Hardcore lists that right now must include a Cyclops.
• A NVB Henchman with double keyword Chimera/Woe with Oportunistic (Poison) and an ability like this one: Poison Master: If the leader of this crew shares at least 1 keyword with this model, when hiring, Crews containing this model treat models in the declared faction with the Venomous Strike and/or Spit Venom attack as tough they were versatile.
  • This will give NVB a Chimera henchman, when that henchman is selected as a leader it will get access to some of the beasts Marcus has access and it’s also a buff to poison models so it’s no all about Sabers/Rougarous, plus WW to support the Bandersnatch in that crew; on the other hand Pandora get a Poison theme that can go really well with Misery and all the poison based models in NVB and reinforce synergy with Dreamer (both spiders have venomous attacks). ARC gets also some possible cool additions to that side of the crew like Posion Gamins and Kudra.

Also in this same line, new “Leader only” abilities or unique perks for some Henchmans that work only when they are the leader. The most interesting henchmans to play are those offering something different from masters, like Hinamatsu/WW to play puppets/Qi and Gong; Carver to pick from 2 keywords or Wrath to create a CR7 crew. More leader only perks would give a reason to play some Henchman leaded crews (either printed in the card or getting it thanks to a free upgrade for being choosed as leaders), those crews would lose masters/double masters and should be 1 little step bellow masters leaded crews, but it'd be a way to expand the playstiles without needing extra models or masters (again favouring list diversity over new and "moar powerful" options). In this case it’d be a good idea disable all leaders only perks during HH games to avoid unbalancing that tho.

Some examples (again just random ideas from the top of my head, not saying these are the best options):

• Hayreddin: Gets the Necromantic Font ability. 
  • This gives NVB a henchman leaded zombie crew; which would also give access to nephillims to extra corpses for a more powerful grow strategy at the cost of giving up Nekima and possible double masters. This also would let him come back to RES (also in henchman leaded crews) and it’s fitting with the Lore. (note: I’m assuming DHM is out; as said above, standard rules)
• Angel Eyes: The least among equals (leader only): Ability that let her hire Nephilims minions as if they were versatile. “Command Half-Blood” as leader only bonus action.
  • A way to expand her limited keyword.
• Thoon: Bloodthirsty (leader only) = During the start phase, Thoon and 1 other friendly model within 6’’ gain fast. Fast Savages may activate Frozen Vigor even not being near of an Ice Pilar. Fast savages don’t lose fast at the end of the activation when near of an Ice pilar. (Note: remember max 3APs even with Fast; Thoon doesn’t get 4 APs).
  • More aggression and less Ice Pilar focus.
• Aeslin: Nature’s wrath (leader only) = If the effigy of fate upgrade is included, it may be replaced from turn 1, it heals 4 (instead of 2). Mysterious emissary gains attuned. All Fae models are immune to Hungry Land Markers.
  • Crew around Ping damage and Emissary.
• Candy: Hatred unleashed (leader only) = All Misery auras lose “Once per activation” and She gains Oportunistic (All).
  • Enables a crew needing less aura overlaps (which would probably works well with the above poison woe)
• Bad Juju: Swamp’s curse (Leader only): All friendly Swampfiend Minions gains Demise (Eternal). “I am the swamp” (leader only): During the start phase, this model may discard a card and gain slow. If he does it, place it within 2’’ of a friendly non-minion that shares a keyword with it.
  • Crew around Bad Juju’s curse.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Love the idea of leader-only abilities for Henchmen to make them viable leaders! But worry it would ruin Henchmen Hardcore.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Love the idea of leader-only abilities for Henchmen to make them viable leaders! But worry it would ruin Henchmen Hardcore.

Henchman Hardcore already cheats on model abilities.

So it wouldn't be too far to add the words 'Ignore any abilities which are triggered by a model being the crew's leader', just like summoning effects and the 'Ignore Helping Hand' clause.

 

 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Love the idea of leader-only abilities for Henchmen to make them viable leaders! But worry it would ruin Henchmen Hardcore.

Agree, those would probably be too powerful in HH; as sokan said the best option is disable them in that mode. It was also suggested it above:

3 hours ago, Ogid said:

In this case it’d be a good idea disable all leaders only perks during HH games to avoid unbalancing that tho

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, solkan said:

Henchman Hardcore already cheats on model abilities.

So it wouldn't be too far to add the words 'Ignore any abilities which are triggered by a model being the crew's leader', just like summoning effects and the 'Ignore Helping Hand' clause.

 

 

That'd eliminate Lord Chompy Bits and the Hungering Darkness, but agreed, they could just work around that (for instance, "other than these two).

[Ogid]

14 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That'd eliminate Lord Chompy Bits and the Hungering Darkness, but agreed, they could just work around that (for instance, "other than these two).

mmm... good point. That rule would have to exclude abilities that let the player ignore the Totem (x) characteristic.

[Nagi21]

On 12/22/2019 at 4:16 AM, Ogid said:

• Candy: Hatred unleashed (leader only) = All Misery auras lose “Once per activation” and She gains Oportunistic (All).
  • Enables a crew needing less aura overlaps (which would probably works well with the above poison woe)

Too strong for Candy, even as a Pandora player.  Misery/aura restrictions are the only thing keeping Pandora from being as good as she was in 2E (which she really needs but that's neither here nor there).  If Candy could ignore half of those restrictions, she's a better leader than Dora at that point.

[Ogid]

23 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Too strong for Candy, even as a Pandora player.  Misery/aura restrictions are the only thing keeping Pandora from being as good as she was in 2E (which she really needs but that's neither here nor there).  If Candy could ignore half of those restrictions, she's a better leader than Dora at that point.

It could be... these aren't tested. But mind the only thing removed is the ability to trigger one particular aura more than once per turn, the restriction that prevent the auras from stacking is still there (so still 1 damage per condition). It'd work well with Temper Tantrum or Agressive Stance if several enemies in range fail the TN... maybe with Breath of Fire if they hug each other and get blasted in range of Misery; but there aren't that many ways to put conditons in a lot of models at the same time.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Quote

Bad Juju: Swamp’s curse (Leader only): All friendly Swampfiend Minions gains Demise (Eternal). “I am the swamp” (leader only): During the start phase, this model may discard a card and gain slow. If he does it, place it within 2’’ of a friendly non-minion that shares a keyword with it.

This one breaks the game even more horribly.

The ideas would clearly need tons of work, but the base idea of having Henchmen have leader only abilities would have been neat if it was still in design stage. Would be great to see it next edition/partway through this edition.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This one breaks the game even more horribly.

The ideas would clearly need tons of work, but the base idea of having Henchmen have leader only abilities would have been neat if it was still in design stage. Would be great to see it next edition/partway through this edition.

Haha, that's why I said "from the top of my head", not "perfectly balanced and tested with my buddies during a month" . Plus not every henchman needs to be leader material nor this change would need to be done at once; it could be tested with 1 or 2 henchmans per faction over 1 or 2 erratas to see how it goes, and keep on it if people like the idea.

Candy one would be probably fine. It'd make Iggy more dangerous, but that one is also paper made so he won't last long if he go around trying to punch things. Kade could get 3 Misery pings if he manage to Lure 3 enemy models (without breaking LoS with the rest somehow) AND get the delay trigger (which is chritmasland scenario), the Vasilisa/Lyssa combo would work, but again I doubt that could get that out of hand... a rattler in range of Candy could get 2 pings (now in range of Pandora it gets 1 ping)... maybe a doppleganger copying a Wisp attack in range of Candy could get 1 or 2 extra pings; but again it require 3 models in range of that particular aura... It doesn't seem that broken. Mind the non-stacking auras general rules apply.

I also have my doubts about Bad Juju one. But still, mind the most dangerous swampfiend minions are a Gator or a Waldgeist; those are annoying but can still be deat with, plus things like anti-demise or anti healing will still work (or just going straight for bad juju and kill it, which would disable that ability). Silurids with Eternal have to be extremelly annoying tho. The most dangerous thing in that crew are the enforcers/henchmans or the versatiles hired that doesn't get the demise. Bad Juju teleport works only in swampfiend non-minions (so again the player have to choose which advantage wants), it's at the start of the turn (so it lets the other player react) and also cost 1 action of the leader (slow) and a card. And Demise also cost cards (plus Gator's Flurry also cost cards...). Bokors can give some draw, but the crew don't have mama Z refilling the hand (or its doll attacking the Bokors to give free suits and fast; so setting up card draw would cost hiring also a Gupps or a low mobility Henchman to summon them which go against having non-minions giving Bad Juju extra mobility). The crew also loses Obeys giving a ton of extra AP to ludicrous beaters like Hoody/Hinamatsu or moving enemy models into akward positions. It needs testing of course, but it's probably not as busted as it looks as I tried to include some resource straining and anti-synergies in that one.

[esqulax]

I started making lists and then I realized there were a lot more models I wanted to mention, so I just listed everything that I feel could use some balance adjustments. 


Nerfs:
Stiched are too good as summons. 
Some restriction or counterplay to Zoraidas discard
Hooded Rider along with all riders. Their "ultimate" is too powerful for being available already in turn 3 and then again turn 4. Especially Pale Rider which is obscene. 
Serena Bowman. She just does so much it is hard to justify not bringing her in every crew. Feels much like the m2 Doppelganger in that regard. 
Candy. Against certain crews she can be extremely oppressive 
Black Blood Shamans along with everything that does pulse focus. My number one biggest problem with M3 is that focus doesn't decay at the end of the turn. I really feel that this is a change that needs to be made, otherwise turtling and spamming focus can be extremely unfun to play against. 

Buffs: 
Lelu/Lilitu. As squishy as other Nephilim, yet lacks their mobility. 
All Woes that aren't Pandora or Candy
Waldgeists. I struggle to see their role
A lot of our small scheme runner models could use a buff of some kind (Tots, Bultungin, Hounds). There are scheme pools where I feel gimped if I don't pick Zoraida just so I have access to Silurids.  
Razorspine Rattler. Like Waldgeists I don't see a situation where I would ever want it. 
Bloodwretch and Maurice.