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Maniacal_cackle

So are Arcanists, Outcasts, and Ten Thunders the dominant factions?

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4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT: Also worth noting some crews are just hard to 'get.' Reva was widely mocked in resser spaces for being terribad, but recent tournament placements have changed that a fair bit. Hearing explanations of how the crew works has really opened up my eyes as to why 'the most underpowered resser crew' is actually awesome.

Could you elaborate on "recent tournament placements"? I am really curious, as the only one I heard of was LVO, where Reva was played in one round. I know it sounds like I am sceptic about your hype for Reva, but that's not the case - I am always excited to hear that someone made underperforming crew work!

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On 2/14/2020 at 7:31 AM, Nagi21 said:

Her AP for AP power is basically that of a Mature, as while it's stat 7 vs stat 6 and 3/5/6 vs 3/4/6, the combat finesse of the mature allows it to survive in places Nekima shouldn't, and by the same manner, get to targets she can't, and at that point the offensive power is not enough to make up the difference.  Part of the issue is there are so many ways to keep hardened targets alive in this game between things like armor, incorp, etc. and the ability to put your opponents on negative flips with soulstones, that it makes being a full glass cannon very difficult.  Coupled with the fact that she has no defenses to speak of, and she's just in so many ways worse than a 12 ss minion.  Her defensive trigger only allows you to draw a card if your opponent cheats... which means you've probably used a card at some point, and that's only good if you get a high card and your opponent doesn't have a high card, since stat 6 or higher will hit her on 12 or 13 every time.  Regeneration is nice, but it's only 2 damage which is minimum damage for most models, i.e. you heal one hit the next turn at best, assuming you survive.

My issue isn't that if she gets stuck in, she shouldn't survive, it's that it's so easy to get stuck in in this edition, that it makes a model with no defenses extremely problematic to use.  What do I think is lacking/how to fix? Well... for one thing, why is a generic greatsword better than a named giant blade of doom (yes i consider 6 w/ + damage) better than 7? I mean if she's going to be a squishy glass cannon she really needs to be a cannon.  Otherwise she needs something that really makes her a better investment than a 12 ss minion.  I mean let's be honest: If Nekima was still a henchmen, how many people would be taking her vs a mature nephilim with IR and 5 stones (vs Nekima with IR).  Or better yet, why isn't she seeing much playtime as a second master for 17 stones?  The only reason she sees any table time vs alternatives is because she's the damn master.

It's only 3 charges if you don't get engaged, she doesn't have access to the charge out of melee range ability of IR.  Anything with 2" range will pin her down, which is most dedicated beaters.  My issue isn't that she's a glass cannon, it's that she's too much glass for how much cannon you get with her.

Almost all of your comparisons between Nekima and the Mature can be applied to them in 2e, only the Mature actually stacked up more favorably in 2e thanks to flurry and charge through.  And yet Nekima still made it into a lot of lists whereas the mature rarely made it. 

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4 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Could you elaborate on "recent tournament placements"? I am really curious, as the only one I heard of was LVO, where Reva was played in one round. I know it sounds like I am sceptic about your hype for Reva, but that's not the case - I am always excited to hear that someone made underperforming crew work!

There was a medium sized tournament where a solo Reva player got 4th. That was probably a turning point on the Resser forums with less dismissing of Reva.

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15 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Is giving Daschel a target for summoning a big deal?  He's still worse at summoning than Sandeep even with a target.  This isn't Parker Barrows, he removes one scheme marker a round.  Nor is his crew particularly survivable for doing that without getting punished.  Outside of Daschel, only Queeg and the Sargent even interact with enemy scheme markers, making it very different from Parker Barrows (where it feels like putting down markers is basically handing Parker's crew free Fast). 

Then there's this odd thing where every model in his crew seems to be missing stuff.  For instance, Queeg is an 8 wound Df 5 model with... that's it.  For 8 stones.  It feels a bit below the curve.  He doesn't even get an enforcer.    The guard patrol for some reason have a 1/2/4 damage gun.  Wardens aren't great in Hoffman, but they're obviously better there.  Queeg and Daschel together lets you discard a card and take 2 damage to gain Fast as a bonus action, I guess.  Does not seem as good Reckless.   

For that matter Daschel himself seems made out of cardboard.  He's 10 wounds, armor 1, which is extremely not impressive if you're going to extend to target the enemy's scheme markers.  

Then there's the bizarre Loot their Corpse.  It lets you turn corpses into soulstones, which lets you channel their killing power into more stones for more killing power.  Only they don't have much killing power, and their only henchman is Queeg, who has mediocre attacks and is seriously made out of cardboard.  They can't even spend soulstones for anything special.  It's just the weirdest little ability.  I guess you're supposed to toss soulstones with Queeg and Daschel to make them not die?  It feels like they'd be better off with real defensive mechanics.

I don't think your opponent has to respect one thing about a Daschal crew.  I'd love to play someone who showed me differently, but right now I can't see how his models are good or how he's good.  

As said before, no idea of the real power of the crew; on paper seems at least decent; but it's true sometimes things that seems good on paper aren't that good on the table.

However I think the above is a bit negative...

The target in Dashel summoning ability is a big deal; he will be denying at the same time he summon things (for example, Arson, a 10'' range ability that remove scheme markers is considered top notch for denial, dashel is only 2'' short of that but he also generate models that may further mess with enemies or their scheme markers); the counterpart is if the other player doesn't place schemes, then he has to go the extra mile to summon with the same efficiency than other masters. Plus having a few models able to mess with enemy scheme markers can make hard for the other player to complete some schemes.

You seem to value very high how tanky/killy models are but Dashel seems to play a different game; there is definitely damage in his keyword, but I don't think that is what he excel at. For example, the guard patrol, a 4SS model with creep along and take the hit, that let him/her defend more valuable models and even double scheme, plus his mele attack versus activated model isn't bad for a 4SS minion and he could inflict adversary with the gun, the fact his gun's damage sucks in most scenarios doesn't make the rest of the model useless.

Queeg is a henchman support, he won't tank or smash his way to victory but has a lot of tricks; free pushes, heals, fast, coordinated attacks, range 2 mele... It's true he is a bit glassy but he is in a keyword with minions with take the hit and where SS may be generated. Dashel may have 10 wounds (instead of 12 as most masters), but his defensive stats are above average and he is in a faction where he can have Armor+2 if needed; he can go to the frontline without problems, plus his bonus action and triggers are very good; but as happens with Queeg he is a suportish master.

I think loot their corpse in this crew has a double intention, looting the corpses of the foes is one; but having models like Hounds, Guild Guards (Take the hit) and Mounted Guard (Dead  Horse) may let the keyword generate a fair ammount of bodies, bodies that may then be recicled into SS (this the Guild version of Big Hat, the "our guys are weaker but there are a lot of them and we don't mind them being butchered" style). Those SS may be used to keep alive the important models for this engine, draw cards at the start of the turn or to fuel OOK/Versatile models.

IDK, hope it helps!

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4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

There was a medium sized tournament where a solo Reva player got 4th. That was probably a turning point on the Resser forums with less dismissing of Reva.

She still doesn't do enough to consider taking her over any of the other masters in the faction. 

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I think there are basic things that crews have to do in Malifaux.  They have to be able to be able to do one of these things:

  1. Survive damage
  2. Do enough damage to kill things, fast enough that you can "race" the enemy on damage
  3. Dump enough conditions, positioning tricks, and card manipulation that you're never in a position to be attacked for serious damage

This flows from the basic principle that it's hard to score points when your crew is all dead.

For instance Colette does 3 - her mess of burying things, distracting things, and jumping around like a rabbit on crack can really screw up an enemy crew.  Jack Daw does 1 and 3 - his crew is almost hilariously hard to kill, and can lock down an enemy crew (and he can output decent damage on top of that).  Dreamer does a nasty mix of all three - his stuff is hard to kill and comes back, he can output surprising damage, and is no slouch when it comes to positioning manipulation and conditions.  Parker is mostly going for 2 - his crew isn't that survivable, and he doesn't dump out that many conditions, but the wall of gunfire you can walk into against Parker can rip your crew apart faster than you're ripping his crew apart.  

 

Yes, scheming is great.  Scheming is fantastic.  But if your opponent can table you, scheming doesn't win you the game anymore.  There's only 4 scheme points, not 6.  Arson is top-notch scheme denial, but is coming from Sandeep, Hoffman, Colette, etc. who have demonstrated the ability to survive, score, and deny the opponent points. 

Now look, I'd actually honestly love to be wrong.  I would love it if someone came along and showed me a Daschel crew that could regularly win matches, and if someone wants to try I'm more than down to learn this Vassal thing and give it a go.   But what I see is a crew that is lacking in the fundamentals of what makes a crew good.  And more than "fixing his summoning" what he really needs is better core mechanics - better conditions to put on the enemy, more models that can trade blows, more things that scare the enemy so they can't just throw Archie into the middle of the crew and watch him cause chaos.  I don't know if he's legitimately the worst crew in M3E - We have contenders like Hamlin down there.  But I'd be hard-pressed to name a crew that brings less to the table than Daschel.  And I don't think a few buffs on him, or Guild as a whole, would be bad for the game

(Again, I'm an outcast player, if anything it just makes my matches tougher if you buff guild)

 

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6 hours ago, farmoar said:

She still doesn't do enough to consider taking her over any of the other masters in the faction. 

I don't know, the players that play her have certainly persuaded me she has some pretty unique strengths that make her worth taking at times. Shieldbearers in particular were something I underestimated until they were explained to me. There's some good material on the ressers forums scattered about.

@RisingPhoenix, I think that is an oversimplification, but yeah, fair enough! Definitely could see Dashel being on the weaker end of the power spectrum.

 

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@Maniacal_cackle I'd be open to correction and modification, but with the 1 point/round 2-5 structure, 2 scheme points at the end of the game, and general strategies and schemes, I don't think we have the luxury of M2E "we all kill ourselves" crews.  If you can't reliably bring some number of models to the end of the game, you're not going to score enough to win very often in M3E.  The ways to do that I see are "just shrug off damage and tarpit them", "kill them first", and "fuck up their positioning and crew so badly they can't kill you."  Maybe there's some sort of speedster crew that just runs the enemy around the board and dodges them that way, but I dunno.  It's not a huge board.  Anyway, Daschel doesn't do any of it very well from what I see. 

 

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5 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Maybe there's some sort of speedster crew that just runs the enemy around the board and dodges them that way, but I dunno.  It's not a huge board.

Zipp & Viks both can do this, and I have done this for amazing and frustrating results.

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11 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I think there are basic things that crews have to do in Malifaux.  They have to be able to be able to do one of these things:

  1. Survive damage
  2. Do enough damage to kill things, fast enough that you can "race" the enemy on damage
  3. Dump enough conditions, positioning tricks, and card manipulation that you're never in a position to be attacked for serious damage

I've not played enough M3 to be completely comfortable with its extremes yet, but I generally follow the two rules for my crew

1 It needs to score points.

2 It needs to deny the enemy points.

 

Its much harder to score points now if you don't have a crew left, so part of the first rule probably needs you to survive to some degree. (Its theoretically possible for you to die in turn 4 and still score max points but its not that likely.)

Following on from the same point, killing enemy models is one of the easiest ways to achieve point 2 (Likewise if I have denied them any scheme or strategy points uptil the end of turn 4, thy can't score more than 3 points in turn 5 no matter how much they have left and how little I have left) but its not the only way.

I think Dashel has a moderate game on all 3 of your things though. Summoning back your loses is a reasonable way to survive damage. There is also some healing in the crew (largely Dashels bonus action).   The damage tracks aren't amazing, but they are decent, and they are decent in both :ranged and:melee. So they should try to pick the engagement that isn;'t good for the enemy. There are a reasonable number of ppositionign tricks and so forth out there that the crew can quickly adapt to deny scheme runners (A mounted guard can get an attack on a model 24" from where it started the activation. Give it fast and run and gun (one is very easy within keyword and the other is an upgrade it can easily take) and that turns into a 45" threat if it starts near queeg and a sergent.

The biggest problem I see in a Dashel crew is working out how you should play it each time. You need to decide if you're being the long or short range crew and  you could happily discard your hand twice over each turn just giving reckless to everything. You also need to decide what is the right summon each turn and because you are probably alos doing focused damage shots its not always just the best thing you can summon with your hand. Because of this I think he has a very high learning curve, which is not the same as not being good, but he needs someone to really learn his crew to get it to the same level as other crew get to with less learning.  And guild previously was the faction with the lowest learning curve for its masters (they were quite forgiving of mistakes)

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On 2/19/2020 at 8:06 AM, santaclaws01 said:

Almost all of your comparisons between Nekima and the Mature can be applied to them in 2e, only the Mature actually stacked up more favorably in 2e thanks to flurry and charge through.  And yet Nekima still made it into a lot of lists whereas the mature rarely made it. 

That's because for cost, Teddy was the go to over the Mature, since the latter had 0 defenses and Teddy was very survivable with flurry.  Nekima was better over them, but she was also 3 stones more which is a LOT.

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4 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Zipp & Viks both can do this, and I have done this for amazing and frustrating results.

That makes a lot of sense (although I still long for the days of M2E Viks blender-ing through everyone). I think you can slot the majority of Nephelim crews as well. Flight/Incorporeal are top tier in this edition. Particularly with the suggested amount of terrain.

I think Hamelin still suffers from needing to make it to the end of turn 4 before the attrition game kicks in and he starts scoring points. Right now he seems weaker, but I believe that it is mostly because people are still learning the game, and not making it the full 5 rounds.

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@RisingPhoenix, You made me check Guard a bit more and I still don't dislike what I see, however as Adran said above, it doesn't seem an straightforward and easy crew. These are my impresions of the crew after checking it a bit more:

The good:

  • Mobility: It's a crew that may have 3 models with Ride with me (counting rider), plus a lot of other pushes, fast and little tricks.
  • Scheming power: Between the mobility, Ride with me, creep along, fast, non-insignificant 3SS models, models that become others... that's a lot of AP to work with.
  • Versatile: Decent close and long range punch, good mobility and good scheme marker denial in the keyword.
  • Damage: His models don't have impressive damage tracks, but there are several ways to trigger extra attacks (or some ping damage) in the crew, a fair ammount of critical strikes, Pursue to make them dangerous versus activated models. Also the keyword has access to Focused. But there can be also big hits, Dashel can set up a 7 damage hit by himself and Executioners can take on enemy riders for example (and the crew have the tricks to put them near of a rider and with fast). I don't think they lack damage.
  • Execute: 2 models have it, but being minions is not very reliable. However, add Agent 46, give fast to those models and some way to make the other player discard cards and he may start to think twice about his own hand management.
  • Control: The crew has access to slow, distracted, annoying, Injured and Hunting Partners.
  • Being able to generate SS is always good.
  • Taskmaster works in any model, not only in guard.

Bad things:

  • Card staved: There are a lot of abilities that require discarding cards and the crew have very little card draw; this require leverage well Focused and Adversary in the ofensive and probably including at least 1 OOK models to have card draw (Lawyer, Alan, Investigator...) or being very selective with them.
  • First turn summoning harder than other masters (need to set up an enemy scheme marker), also harder to summon if there is an scheme pool that require few scheme markers.
  • Complex playstile: Guard models need to work with each other more than other keywords; this isn't easy to play.
  • Squishy models: There isn't that many defensive tech outside a few models; Guard Patrols take the hit plus Loot their corpse is the real defensive tech of this keyword (in fact the summon upgrade lure Guard Patrols so they may take the hit XD); again something that require set up, so harder to play than other crews.
  • Need to cover weaknesses with OOK/Versatile models; not 100% sure about it but I'd say Guard benefice a lot from OOK/Versatiles to cover its weak spots and make some of their mechanics really shine; some card draw can make a world of difference.
  • Hounds with Mindless doesn't seem good summons.

Some extra synergies:

  • With the amount of discard card this crew has, combining Dashel shouting orders with Queeg taskmaster for Fast may be expensive. However there are models like Dashel himself, Santiago or the steward who may use their supporting abilities to give Focused to other model and transform that Focused into fast without discarding cards. Ideally, shielded may be used to prevent the point of damage (from Dashel, Lawyers, LLC or Allison for example).
  • Executioners may be set up to strike very hard in one activation with fast and setting up an enemy scheme marker (or just attacking someone near of one), that has the potential of being 4 min3 stat 7 attacks in a crew with models with Ride with me that may position the Executioner, if that model activated and is affected by Adversary, it's probably a dead model.
  • Asuming a model will be near to pick the pieces, Guard Patrols/Dogs "real cost" would be 3/2 SS models. This may be also used to summon several small models as cannon fodder to make the other player waste AP dealing with them and get SS in return.
  • Guard Patrols may let some minions use upgrades like No prisioners without being so killable. Run and gun in a warden, rifleman or Sargent could be decent.

Some good synergies within the faction (not counting masters):

  • Card draw:
    • Lawyer: Tools for the job seems quite good to get those suits, both Queeg and Dashel may make him draw a card if Coordinated attack is used on him (but he isn't the best target for this tho), he may get tomes as the suit instead of masks to draw 1 card with the bonus action. He add some control with his mele attack.
    • Alan: 1 free card, staggered (also go well with Rider), good coordinated attack target (and Dashel may make him draw a card), may stone executes, surge, and coordinated attack; give slow and with coordinated attack.
    • Allison Dade: Blackmail to refill your hand or deplete theirs; plus surge trigger.
    • Investigator: Riskier Alan, this one has the potential to draw more cards but it's also harder to keep alive and require more set up in an already set up intensive crew; I'd say Alan is better.
    • The Judge: Good beater, staggered, SS generation, nice coordinated attack target and some card draw.
  • Execute:
    • Agent 46: Include him, give him fast, use ride with me to put him in position, copy the rifleman clockwork rifle and enjoy. The Executioner mele attack is another choice, with Guard Patrols taking the hit it's a bit safer to go engage with him. Extra advantages are coordinated attacks with Dashel in mele to draw a card (or extra shoots thanks to hounds) and Analyze weaknesses to make armored targets feel all those small attacks.
    • Grimwell: The keyword benefice from including some models that play with Staggered (Alan, Rider...); Grimwell may both make models discard cards to set up executes or deal a LOT of damage and he is also quite tanky.
    • Hounds: If he discard cards to disengage, he'll weaken his hand and will be more vulnerable to Executes.
    • Greed: Deplete SS.
    • Allison Dade and Alan.
  • They just don't die!
    • Death Marshal Recruiter: Mounted Guard -> Guard Patrol -> Death Marshal (lol) or Guard Patrol use Take the hit -> Death Marshal; this seems very annoying, but it also require discarding cards tho.
  • Pathfinders: Traps go well to tie enemies and have extra targets for Coordinated attacks. Frontiersman rifle damage track benefice from Focused and they have another small push. Traps infilict staggered, so it goes well with Grimwell/Alan, force discard to disengage (Execute theme). Killed traps give scrap to fuel Wardens.

 

It seems a very interesting and complex keyword, but not easy to play by any means. They need to manage well the hand with all their discard card abilities, being mindful of the position of the models in the table so they may support each other as needed (it's always easier to play strong independent models able to get the job done by themselves), sacrifice Guard Patrols to keep other models alive, set up abilities taking in count friendly and enemy scheme markers and synergies between models, use well their conditions, leverage Pursue, manage SS between defense and stonning coordinated attack triggers for damage spikes... I like them, however withoutplaying them/versus them I don't know exactly how good they really are.

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3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

That's because for cost, Teddy was the go to over the Mature, since the latter had 0 defenses and Teddy was very survivable with flurry.  Nekima was better over them, but she was also 3 stones more which is a LOT.

You missed by point. The gap between 3e Nekima and Mature is bigger than the gap between 2e Nekima and Mature, and yet if anyone wanted a generalist beater their first reach was towards Nekima(until Hooded got the cost reduction).

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19 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

You missed by point. The gap between 3e Nekima and Mature is bigger than the gap between 2e Nekima and Mature, and yet if anyone wanted a generalist beater their first reach was towards Nekima(until Hooded got the cost reduction).

I disagree with this immensely.  The gap between a 3e Nekima and Mature boils down to combat finesse vs 3 AP, which is up for some debate as to which is worth more.  In 2e if anyone wanted a generalist beater in 2e, the first go to was Teddy.  In 3e, the first go to is the Mature.  Nekima has never been the generalist beater due to her price.  She was for a very specific set of circumstances when you needed a hypermobile cruise missile to take out one specific thing and then never return.

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1 minute ago, Nagi21 said:

In 2e if anyone wanted a generalist beater in 2e, the first go to was Teddy

... for who? He was pretty rarely hired even with Dreamer. He had paper defenses and wasn't super mobile. All he had going for him was stat 7, min 3, flurry, and a 0 action no one ever expected to work unless jokers were flipped. So basically he had nothing going for him over the million other beaters that neverborn had.

 

7 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

  In 3e, the first go to is the Mature. 

Interesting way to spell Hinamatsu or Hooded Rider.

8 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Nekima has never been the generalist beater due to her price.  She was for a very specific set of circumstances when you needed a hypermobile cruise missile to take out one specific thing and then never return.

Is that why the neverborn all-stars list existed to just slot in whatever master that wasn't Dreamer or Lucius?

 

Either way, this is talk for the neverborn forum.

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3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

... for who? He was pretty rarely hired even with Dreamer. He had paper defenses and wasn't super mobile. All he had going for him was stat 7, min 3, flurry, and a 0 action no one ever expected to work unless jokers were flipped. So basically he had nothing going for him over the million other beaters that neverborn had.

 

Interesting way to spell Hinamatsu or Hooded Rider.

Is that why the neverborn all-stars list existed to just slot in whatever master that wasn't Dreamer or Lucius?

 

Either way, this is talk for the neverborn forum.

Are you sure you've played Neverborn before?  Because Teddy was always on the table, because Teddy was cheap, hit hard, and could fly.  And the current state does not have Hoody on the same tier as Hina or the Mature.  Not sure what your meta is where the rider is more popular...

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Just now, Nagi21 said:

Are you sure you've played Neverborn before?  Because Teddy was always on the table, because Teddy was cheap, hit hard, and could fly.  And the current state does not have Hoody on the same tier as Hina or the Mature.  Not sure what your meta is where the rider is more popular...

We had a prize for anyone who kept teddy on the table till turn 2. I would say that it was rare to see teddy on the table during M2 in the games I played/saw. Obviously different meta had different ideas

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35 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Are you sure you've played Neverborn before?  Because Teddy was always on the table, because Teddy was cheap, hit hard, and could fly.  

I've been playing this game for 6 years and very actively following tournament results for the last 5.5. I can count on a single hand the number of times I saw a person getting podium or close while playing neverborn mention bringing teddy, and I can't count any times anyone ever spent 2 more stones just to give Teddy On Dreaming Wings rather than going for any other the other available upgrades(usually Ret's Eye or the obvious 1k Faces after wave 5). You also mentioned Nekima being too expensive to be a generalist beater, but Teddy with On Dreaming Wings is the exact same price? Something definitely isn't adding up here.

Again I find it odd that you assert that any beater was more popular than Nekima given the ubiquity of the all-stars list that was popularized very early on in 2e.

42 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

And the current state does not have Hoody on the same tier as Hina or the Mature.  

Again, what? 

43 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Not sure what your meta is where the rider is more popular...

"My meta" is playing on vassal semiregularly and watching what people talk about bringing on AWP, on 3-4 different discord servers, here, and the neverborn messenger chat, and my local meta where I'm the main neverborn player. If anybodies meta is the weird one here, it's yours.

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