So are Arcanists, Outcasts, and Ten Thunders the dominant factions?

[Ogid]

19 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A summoning crew generally can't pull off those shenanigans. They accomplish less per action and make up for it by having more actions. Not to mention they are spending cards on summoning while I am spending cards killing key enemy pieces.

It depends on the summoner tho. Dreamer's or Kirai's summons aren't specially efficient at scoring, but others like Asami or Sandeep may summon models like Wind Gamins or Katashiros that are top notch schemers. But I get you, in general summoners are handicapped in one way or another to make up for the advantage of having extra models.

Also extra models may also be a disadvantage in some scenarios. In idols are great to have spare Wds but they make easier for the other player to control the idols placement, summons are also usually easier to kill than a Henchman or a high cost Enforcer so in Turf Wars/Reckoning may be used against the summoner; and that severe card (plus stone a lot of the time) the summoner has to commit each turn make easier for the other player to be able to cheat that crucial flip that turn.

Summoners are powerful and should be watched closely, but they aren't the answer to everything.

[Maniacal_cackle]

25 minutes ago, Ogid said:

It depends on the summoner tho. Dreamer's or Kirai's summons aren't specially efficient at scoring, but others like Asami or Sandeep may summon models like Wind Gamins or Katashiros that are top notch schemers. But I get you, in general summoners are handicapped in one way or another to make up for the advantage of having extra models.

Also extra models may also be a disadvantage in some scenarios. In idols are great to have spare Wds but they make easier for the other player to control the idols placement, summons are also usually easier to kill than a Henchman or a high cost Enforcer so in Turf Wars/Reckoning may be used against the summoner; and that severe card (plus stone a lot of the time) the summoner has to commit each turn make easier for the other player to be able to cheat that crucial flip that turn.

Summoners are powerful and should be watched closely, but they aren't the answer to everything.

Good points, but it isn't like anyone hires wind gamin (I think?). The crew needs to summon those to reach parity (although access to soulstones miners means that this argument breaks down when including versatile hires).

Minako rei... Non-master summoning did not receive the Beta upgrade rebalancing, so these tend to be broken I agree.

Corrupted idols - I find that as my games get more cutthroat, idols is more about board coverage than dominating initiative. Ten thunders emissary for example just means nothing in ressers can keep up on initiative. So summoners seem much stronger on idols (though I used to think Molly dominated it due to initiative and Archie, she isn't top tier for it I realised).

[Nagi21]

12 hours ago, farmoar said:

Strong word choice. Care to elaborate?

I've been playing Nekima since the start of 3e and while I have had found success with the Nephilim crew, the weakspot in my experience seems to be Nekima and her kit.  I won't go into details but bascially she doesn't hit as hard for how squishy she is (though she does hit hard), and her full kit seems to want to do two completely different things.  Looking objectively at cost, she's worth about the same as a Mature with IR at 12 stones as far as a beatstick goes, maybe 13 since she has 3 ap, but the rest of her kit and abilities are so counter-intuitve to that and don't sync well with her role as a highly-mobile killer.  Her defensive trigger is not particularly good either, as she's outstated on Df vs pretty much everything aside from cheap minions.

Unfortunately, LVO was one by a highly elite 6 model Nekima list, which means that everyone who disagrees with my opinion above is going to point to that as reason enough she's just fine.

Note: My issue is solely with Nekima as a model and master, not the keyword, which is very good this edition.

[Nagi21]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Good points, but it isn't like anyone hires wind gamin (I think?). The crew needs to summon those to reach parity (although access to soulstones miners means that this argument breaks down when including versatile hires).

Uhh... most of the Sandeep players in my meta hire a wind gamin early to get board control.

[CD1248]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

Uhh... most of the Sandeep players in my meta hire a wind gamin early to get board control.

Yup. Wind Gamin gives you a ton of free movement when combined with Banasuva's Mantra. I'll typically hire one then summon another turn 1, force one or both to Concentrate with Sandeep, then do it again for one of them with Banasuva, then they do it again on their activations. 4-5 extra 4" place moves for your beaters, and a pair of windy boys all loaded up with focus to go beat up opposing schemers with.

Doubt I'd ever hire one OOK though.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Unfortunately, LVO was one by a highly elite 6 model Nekima list, which means that everyone who disagrees with my opinion above is going to point to that as reason enough she's just fine.

Note: My issue is solely with Nekima as a model and master, not the keyword, which is very good this edition.

I know - its tough to say a model is weak and underpowered when there is a very public success with them.

For what its worth I think you will find plenty of posts from the player of that list that agree with your point, and I think the whole purpose of the list created was to try and bypass the vulnerability of Nekima. But it does mean that if you wanted to make changes to Nekima, you would need to make some things worse as well as some things better. (They might not have to be directly on Nekimas card, but you would probably want to make sure that the changes as a whole don't make this list stronger).

And if there is only 1 way to play Nekima successfully, then that is certainly a reason to look to change her, but it puts her down the list behind the models that every way to play them is a success, and the models that no way to play them is a success.

[Ogid]

Wind Gamins are a common hire for Sandeep; not that common as OOK because ARC has things like Swarms or Miners in the versatile pool, but that model in a less schemy faction would be a legit OOK pick.

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I've been playing Nekima since the start of 3e and while I have had found success with the Nephilim crew, the weakspot in my experience seems to be Nekima and her kit.  I won't go into details but bascially she doesn't hit as hard for how squishy she is (though she does hit hard), and her full kit seems to want to do two completely different things.  Looking objectively at cost, she's worth about the same as a Mature with IR at 12 stones as far as a beatstick goes, maybe 13 since she has 3 ap, but the rest of her kit and abilities are so counter-intuitve to that and don't sync well with her role as a highly-mobile killer.  Her defensive trigger is not particularly good either, as she's outstated on Df vs pretty much everything aside from cheap minions.

Unfortunately, LVO was one by a highly elite 6 model Nekima list, which means that everyone who disagrees with my opinion above is going to point to that as reason enough she's just fine.

Note: My issue is solely with Nekima as a model and master, not the keyword, which is very good this edition.

Balancing is hard, but I don't think 1 good player dominating 1 tournament is enough data to say if something is ok or not. If more Nekima player start to one trick events that's another story. For what he and other of his meta said Kharnage is one of the best players of his meta and most players from his meta got the top positions; that points he was one of the best players there and that's the reason he took the tournament, not just the keyword (and even the players of his meta said his success with the list is the player, that other playing the same aren't getting the same results). In a game as complex as this one it's hard to see the difference between something too powerful and something fine in the hands of a good player. Also I think I poin this before, but Kharnage's list is designed to make Nekima shine (high cache + high initiative + lower model count)

But I don't think Nekima has that many problems. She is "squishy" (she has good health recovery and range 2 + IR is a pain tho), but she is also very fast and the most dangerous beater in the faction by far; she cannot facetank the enemy team, but it's not easy to play against something that may cross half of the table, fly over things and threaten important models. Also having 3 APs, stat7, severe damage 5 and Frenzied Charge (with IR in the faction) she is way more dangerous than a Mature (Mature's Combat Finesse is great tho). I'm curious, what do you think she is lacking/how do you change her?

[SerZaka]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

"squishy" (she has good health recovery and range 2 + IR is a pain tho), but she is also very fast and the most dangerous beater in the faction by far; she cannot facetank the enemy team, but it's not easy to play against something that may cross half of the table, fly over things and threaten important models. Also having 3 APs, stat7, severe damage 5 and Frenzied Charge (with IR in the faction) she is way more dangerous than a Mature (Mature's Combat Finesse is great tho). I'm curious, what do you think she is lacking/how do you change her?

I agree. 3 charges right through your crew sucks xD probably "weak 3" is more impressive of "severe 5" 

I think that the main problem is the model xD You see this 50mm base huge demon and you think she can take the weight of the world on her shoulders . She is a Glass Cannon and she should be treated like that . Her actual gameplay remembers in some ways M2E Misaki .

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

she's worth about the same as a Mature with IR at 12 stones as far as a beatstick goes, maybe 13 since she has 3 ap,

there are many things to disagree with, but what I find the least persuasive in your argument is the pricing of master's third AP.

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

But I don't think Nekima has that many problems. She is "squishy" (she has good health recovery and range 2 + IR is a pain tho), but she is also very fast and the most dangerous beater in the faction by far; she cannot facetank the enemy team, but it's not easy to play against something that may cross half of the table, fly over things and threaten important models. Also having 3 APs, stat7, severe damage 5 and Frenzied Charge (with IR in the faction) she is way more dangerous than a Mature (Mature's Combat Finesse is great tho). I'm curious, what do you think she is lacking/how do you change her?

Her AP for AP power is basically that of a Mature, as while it's stat 7 vs stat 6 and 3/5/6 vs 3/4/6, the combat finesse of the mature allows it to survive in places Nekima shouldn't, and by the same manner, get to targets she can't, and at that point the offensive power is not enough to make up the difference.  Part of the issue is there are so many ways to keep hardened targets alive in this game between things like armor, incorp, etc. and the ability to put your opponents on negative flips with soulstones, that it makes being a full glass cannon very difficult.  Coupled with the fact that she has no defenses to speak of, and she's just in so many ways worse than a 12 ss minion.  Her defensive trigger only allows you to draw a card if your opponent cheats... which means you've probably used a card at some point, and that's only good if you get a high card and your opponent doesn't have a high card, since stat 6 or higher will hit her on 12 or 13 every time.  Regeneration is nice, but it's only 2 damage which is minimum damage for most models, i.e. you heal one hit the next turn at best, assuming you survive.

My issue isn't that if she gets stuck in, she shouldn't survive, it's that it's so easy to get stuck in in this edition, that it makes a model with no defenses extremely problematic to use.  What do I think is lacking/how to fix? Well... for one thing, why is a generic greatsword better than a named giant blade of doom (yes i consider 6 w/ + damage) better than 7? I mean if she's going to be a squishy glass cannon she really needs to be a cannon.  Otherwise she needs something that really makes her a better investment than a 12 ss minion.  I mean let's be honest: If Nekima was still a henchmen, how many people would be taking her vs a mature nephilim with IR and 5 stones (vs Nekima with IR).  Or better yet, why isn't she seeing much playtime as a second master for 17 stones?  The only reason she sees any table time vs alternatives is because she's the damn master.

50 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I agree. 3 charges right through your crew sucks xD probably "weak 3" is more impressive of "severe 5" 

I think that the main problem is the model xD You see this 50mm base huge demon and you think she can take the weight of the world on her shoulders . She is a Glass Cannon and she should be treated like that . Her actual gameplay remembers in some ways M2E Misaki .

It's only 3 charges if you don't get engaged, she doesn't have access to the charge out of melee range ability of IR.  Anything with 2" range will pin her down, which is most dedicated beaters.  My issue isn't that she's a glass cannon, it's that she's too much glass for how much cannon you get with her.

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

why is a generic greatsword better than a named giant blade of doom

A 3/4/5 weapon is better than a 3/5/6? 

Even with a to damage, the best it can do is your moderate, and the is only if you have not charged this turn, not very in line with Nekima. 

[Adran]

52 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Her AP for AP power is basically that of a Mature, as while it's stat 7 vs stat 6 and 3/5/6 vs 3/4/6, the combat finesse of the mature allows it to survive in places Nekima shouldn't, and by the same manner, get to targets she can't, and at that point the offensive power is not enough to make up the difference.  Part of the issue is there are so many ways to keep hardened targets alive in this game between things like armor, incorp, etc. and the ability to put your opponents on negative flips with soulstones, that it makes being a full glass cannon very difficult.  Coupled with the fact that she has no defenses to speak of, and she's just in so many ways worse than a 12 ss minion.  Her defensive trigger only allows you to draw a card if your opponent cheats... which means you've probably used a card at some point, and that's only good if you get a high card and your opponent doesn't have a high card, since stat 6 or higher will hit her on 12 or 13 every time.  Regeneration is nice, but it's only 2 damage which is minimum damage for most models, i.e. you heal one hit the next turn at best, assuming you survive.

My issue isn't that if she gets stuck in, she shouldn't survive, it's that it's so easy to get stuck in in this edition, that it makes a model with no defenses extremely problematic to use.  What do I think is lacking/how to fix? Well... for one thing, why is a generic greatsword better than a named giant blade of doom (yes i consider 6 w/ + damage) better than 7? I mean if she's going to be a squishy glass cannon she really needs to be a cannon. 

It's only 3 charges if you don't get engaged, she doesn't have access to the charge out of melee range ability of IR.  Anything with 2" range will pin her down, which is most dedicated beaters.  My issue isn't that she's a glass cannon, it's that she's too much glass for how much cannon you get with her.

I accept she has similar power per AP, but she has 150% the AP of a mature. So if she activates on turn 4 she has applied more power as the Mature could possible apply in the whole game. (You could argue that ride with me gives the mature an extra AP, but a similar argument could be made on Shove aside trigger being that much easier to reach with use soulstones)

I disagree with your view on spite, but partially because you are seeming to argue two different things. Combat finesse is a better ability, but it only applies at times when spite would also be in effect. Sure, the "certainty" that they can't cheat is better, and it means you know what you have to spend to stay safe, there will also be times that spite will perform and draw you cards. It turns it into a resource game, with her able to replenish those resources whilst her opponent probably can't. (Spite also works against ranged attacks, and whilst it can be stopped with stunned, I'd still say it is applied more than combat finesse). You also list things that make her being a cannon less effective, but they include things that she can do as a master that the Mature can not do as a minion (largely the use soulstone for negatives, or prevention). Sure, that's additional costs to keep her alive.

I agree with you that the great sword is often a better weapon than her blade, but Nekima wouldn't do as well with a great sword because she often wants to charge and so wouldn't get the damage bonus.

Its probably 2+ charges if you want it to be. Nekima is excellent at being in a place to pick her fights, she is a bully and wants to pick on the weaker models rather than the stronger one. Even if she has been put in engagement with a 2" engagement model, she can hit them, and push them away with her Shove aside trigger to get out of engagement,

[Nagi21]

5 minutes ago, Zebo said:

A 3/4/5 weapon is better than a 3/5/6? 

Even with a to damage, the best it can do is your moderate, and the is only if you have not charged this turn, not very in line with Nekima. 

Yes but it does 4/5 more consistently than without it since it's easy to put your opponent on negatives in the early turns when there are plenty of soulstones to be had.  I'd be curious to see the average damage between the two considering for modifiers and soulstones.

  It also makes the turn 2 getting out easier if/when you win intiative.

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

I accept she has similar power per AP, but she has 150% the AP of a mature. So if she activates on turn 4 she has applied more power as the Mature could possible apply in the whole game. (You could argue that ride with me gives the mature an extra AP, but a similar argument could be made on Shove aside trigger being that much easier to reach with use soulstones)

Its probably 2+ charges if you want it to be. Nekima is excellent at being in a place to pick her fights, she is a bully and wants to pick on the weaker models rather than the stronger one. Even if she has been put in engagement with a 2" engagement model, she can hit them, and push them away with her Shove aside trigger to get out of engagement,

I would argue that ride with me gives the mature the extra AP, and soulstones for shove aside are often needed to keep Nekima alive so that's a massive ss drain.  Also getting to turn 4 as a glass cannon (as everyone agrees she is) is a difficult thing vs a lot of crews, assuming she's doing what she was built to do and not out being a giant death schemer.
 

I agree she wants to pick on the weaker models as opposed to the stronger one, but a position as a 6-7ss model sweeper is really not worth how squishy she is for the tradeoff.

 

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Yes but it does 4/5 more consistently than without it since it's easy to put your opponent on negatives in the early turns when there are plenty of soulstones to be had.  I'd be curious to see the average damage between the two considering for modifiers and soulstones.

Someone (Rufus I think) did a simulation to test them, comparing a stat6 to damage 3/4/5 vs stat7  3/5/6, (Also the Viks) considering the chance to hit and the ability to cheat the damage. It was using a 2 card hand on both sides to allow cheating. I think the actual numbers are lost into the beta forums.

The Justice profile did more damage against df5 and lower. Nekima did more damage against Df 6 and higher. It opened my eyes to just how much more power the can be, even when it doesn't appear it.

 

10 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

I would argue that ride with me gives the mature the extra AP, and soulstones for shove aside are often needed to keep Nekima alive so that's a massive ss drain.  Also getting to turn 4 as a glass cannon (as everyone agrees she is) is a difficult thing vs a lot of crews, assuming she's doing what she was built to do and not out being a giant death schemer

I'm just not sure she is that much more of a glass cannon than the Mature, and that she is dying that much faster than the mature considering the amount of effort put into the process. (I think the matures survivability is being artificially improved due to a perception that its not worth attacking because you can't cheat the attack flip. but I may be wrong). Whilst fly with me will enable the Mature to reach combat with fewer actions, it doesn't up its damage once there. I'd say it probably only adds 1 or 2 extra AP to the mature at best, (and also to other models).

I've no problem with my master dying, as long as they do what I need them to do, so I have no problem with flying her into the middle of a force and keeping them occupied till she dies. Saying she doesn't do what she was built to do implies you know what she was built to do. I don't know what she was built to do, I just use her to do what she can do.

[farmoar]

7 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Unfortunately, LVO was one by a highly elite 6 model Nekima list, which means that everyone who disagrees with my opinion above is going to point to that as reason enough she's just fine.

Note: My issue is solely with Nekima as a model and master, not the keyword, which is very good this edition.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is a list that Kharnage plays into everything. They aren't a Neverborn player who picks and chooses where to play Nekima; they are a Nekima player who plays her into every scheme and strategy pool. They would have more experience into bad matchups, and how to keep Nekima alive when needed.

I agree with you that she seems weaker when comparing her to a Mature, but with practice, she can lead an all-comer list. The important point there is practice, unlike some other masters (Shenlong, Von Schtook, Leveticus, Dreamer, etc) who can solo tournaments.

[Nagi21]

10 minutes ago, farmoar said:

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is a list that Kharnage plays into everything. They aren't a Neverborn player who picks and chooses where to play Nekima; they are a Nekima player who plays her into every scheme and strategy pool. They would have more experience into bad matchups, and how to keep Nekima alive when needed.

I agree with you that she seems weaker when comparing her to a Mature, but with practice, she can lead an all-comer list. The important point there is practice, unlike some other masters (Shenlong, Von Schtook, Leveticus, Dreamer, etc) who can solo tournaments.

Kharnage also admits he has a meta which doesn't include Arcanists and Outcasts, two things I've argued would shut his list down against competent play.

[SerZaka]

A meta without Arcanists? Is that even possible?  😂

[Gnomezilla]

7 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

A meta without Arcanists? Is that even possible?  😂

He’s the tournament organizer. Unfortunately for Arcanists, and fortunately for everyone who’s still sick of Sandeep M2e.

[Trample]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

Kharnage also admits he has a meta which doesn't include Arcanists and Outcasts, two things I've argued would shut his list down against competent play.

How would you approach it in each of those factions?

[Ogid]

mmm... Most of your answers @Nagi21 make me think your oponents should be quite good, they are doing all the right things versus her (pick countertech and focus her down fast when she get close).

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I would argue that ride with me gives the mature the extra AP, and soulstones for shove aside are often needed to keep Nekima alive so that's a massive ss drain.  Also getting to turn 4 as a glass cannon (as everyone agrees she is) is a difficult thing vs a lot of crews, assuming she's doing what she was built to do and not out being a giant death schemer.

You've got a point with the Mature "extra AP", for having a fat schemer both are kind of equivalent; but that extra "true" AP is so good in her when the carnage time come... that 3rd AP let her charge, that's more useful when she start the turn in charge range of enemy models; there is where the diference is noticeable. Also the reliability to being able to stone shove aside when she needs it make her even a more reliable fighter.

She is an expensive model to keep alive, that's true; but with how dangerous she is, that's a fair trade. And she has some built in healing, Regen+2, plus 1 per kill (if she is fighting, she should kill at least 1 model and 2 is doable), that should be 3 (or even 4) per turn. And there are a few extra shenanigans she could do with her fast food trigger and Hayreddin aura to get 1 or 2 extra healing.

4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

My issue isn't that if she gets stuck in, she shouldn't survive, it's that it's so easy to get stuck in in this edition, that it makes a model with no defenses extremely problematic to use.  What do I think is lacking/how to fix? Well... for one thing, why is a generic greatsword better than a named giant blade of doom (yes i consider 6 w/ + damage) better than 7? I mean if she's going to be a squishy glass cannon she really needs to be a cannon.  Otherwise she needs something that really makes her a better investment than a 12 ss minion.  I mean let's be honest: If Nekima was still a henchmen, how many people would be taking her vs a mature nephilim with IR and 5 stones (vs Nekima with IR).  Or better yet, why isn't she seeing much playtime as a second master for 17 stones?  The only reason she sees any table time vs alternatives is because she's the damn master.

But being killable is a "good" thing imo. She got the mobility and damage; she shouldn't be able to facetank a crew on top of that. Also her crew is there to enable her. Throwing Nekima alone versus a bunch of beaters is a dead Nekima, but if she is the last model in getting in when problematic models for her are engaged with Matures/Youngs. That will help her to stay alive and deal a lot of damage. Also being able to stonne Shove Aside and Butterfly Jump are 2 big get out of jail cards.

A Greatsword is a great weapon (pun intended), but that only would be better in her versus counters (lot of range 2 mele or anti charge tech). If she may charge with IR and leverage the upgrade, her damage track is equivalent to 4/6/7, which is way better than 3/4/5 with a  to damage; specially in a crew that can feed her Focused (they may stonne to the damage flip, but then at least 3+1 damage is going in and she still has stat 7)

And it's not only the ability to storm in, it's also the threat. A crew playing versus her can't split and go to scheme as easily as versus other crews because Nekima/Matures will murder anything not supported by his crew; that's hard to measure in stats, but it affects what the other crew can do.

I have a soft spot for glass cannons, so I'd probably play her if she were a Henchman; but others may disagree tho.

2 hours ago, farmoar said:

I agree with you that she seems weaker when comparing her to a Mature, but with practice, she can lead an all-comer list. The important point there is practice, unlike some other masters (Shenlong, Von Schtook, Leveticus, Dreamer, etc) who can solo tournaments.

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Kharnage also admits he has a meta which doesn't include Arcanists and Outcasts, two things I've argued would shut his list down against competent play.

Sorry guys but I don't agree there... Some keywords may perform better in more scenarios and others are more niche; and some players prefer to one trick lists while others rather keep their lists flexible. Everything has advantages and disadvantages but winning a tournament with any master takes skill and practice (even if that master were a bit above of the curve). And I disagree only those 2 factions may beat his list consistently.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've only played against her twice, but you have to take into account that Nephilim change how your opponent plays.

Nephilim force the enemy to bubble. If anything leaves its crew, it instantly dies.

Everyone is talking about Nephilim as glass cannon, but I believe Kharnage has said in other threads that he plays them quite scheme-y.

The mere existence of Nekima + mature nephs means your opponent is playing it a bit safe and clumping. This makes it easier to keep Nekima alive, and then scheme like mad with a crew that will kill anything that comes near.

So looking only at her killing/tanky power is not getting the full picture. The crew can be anywhere and everywhere at once. That is super good for schemes while having killing power on call everywhere on the board.

I'd be curious for stats on how often Kharnage's Nekima uses the interact action. As I'd bet it is a surprisingly high number.

[zavros]

On 2/12/2020 at 7:09 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I have no doubt that you have a wider/more diverse range of experience than I do (and more competitive), but this part misses my main point.

Summoning crews on average are action inefficient in that they take more actions to complete the same task.

As an example, I was Molly vs Kirai in my last tournament. Turn one I smashed out 2-3 bombs. From turn two onwards, I was pressuring his bomb drops by threatening to pick them up/engage his carriers. Meanwhile my team swapped to attacking Kirai (with assassinate scheme in the pool).

I also smashed one of his key pieces on end of turn 1/start of turn 2 (Molly has an activation control advantage in this matchup), severely crippling him and ruining his early bomb plan.

He was having to expend lots of resources just to tread water/not lose Kirai and his bombs. I was pressuring him across every angle - having to deal with my bombs, getting his bombs down, protecting Kirai, etc. In the end I didn't even have assassinate, but I made him burn resources thinking I did.

If the game went 10 turns, he would have won for sure. But there was no chance for him in the five turn game with how the first two turns went.

A summoning crew generally can't pull off those shenanigans. They accomplish less per action and make up for it by having more actions. Not to mention they are spending cards on summoning while I am spending cards killing key enemy pieces.

Note this breaks down a bit with OOK or versatile shenanigans (Asami can get crazy efficient with versatile models from what I saw in my one game). So I wouldn't be surprised if some from you list do need a rework.

I agree that non-summoners have high impact actions that have the opportunity to make up the difference in power level; Such as Levi and Shenlong, molly in your case.

I don't agree that summoners don't also have high impact actions that are equal if not better than what other crews are doing. 

Just look at tara's crew, they can easily out activate you with the pass tokens they make which makes it easy for them to score/deny points. The master and crew have  good abilites, and on top of that she is throwing summons at you to slow you down or threaten glimpse the void to bury and teleport your models across the board. They can pressure you just as much as molly does, but they also get to attrition you out of the game for free.

I would say you were a much better player than your kirai opponent.

If this was 2E malifaux, I would agree that non summoners are doing things that are just as good as summoners, like Lady J could easily do 15+ damage a turn in 2E. With the edition change, everything but summoning was powered down, I don't think a lot of master actions in 3E are equivalent to getting a 9SS model, and that 9SS model can easily have a higher impact than hitting someone with an attack. 

 

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Re: wind gamin, my mistake!

Re @zavros, it is not just a master to master comparison. Most summoning keywords tend to have weaker action efficiency (for instance, in Nightmare, nothing in the crew feels overly efficient except spider movement and dealing damage). Molly's crew on the other hand efficiently gets hand control, focus (can easily stack 4+ focus on three models on turn one), scheming, deadly pursuit, activation control, etc. You have to compare keyword to keyword.

That said... Not all summoners rely on going all in on their keyword. For instance I played against an Asami with emissary and fuhatsu. Oni felt fine to play against, but Oni + versatiles felt disgustingly efficient at everything.

So I don't know if the fault lies with summoners or their ability to cover their weaknesses with the rest of the faction.

[eddy]

Look at Dashel XD

Hardest summoning to pull

Brings nothing extraordinary to table

[Adran]

13 hours ago, eddy said:

Look at Dashel XD

Hardest summoning to pull

Brings nothing extraordinary to table

I'm not convinced that's actually true. I would say Sonnia, Lynch, Mcmorning and Leviticus are harder summons to pull off, just looking at masters, (And I could see a case for Ramos and Nicodem as well), and Tara is an easier summon, but then takes more work to put it on the table, so overall is about the same level of difficulty to get a summon on the table.

(That's not saying anything about the overall power of Dashel. His summoning power is weaker than Dreamer, Asami, Sandeep, Kirai, Somer, but that puts him roughly middle of the pack in summoning masters not at the bottom.)