Suggestion: Tot -> Lelu/Lilitu grow path.

[Ogid]

I’ve got this idea at the back of my mind for a while for the Neph crew, but the last few threads about it kind of confirm what I supposed about the good crew builds and models…

Meta Nephilim crews are the Mature/Young/BBS heavy, while Lelu and Lilitu are situationally used and not well valued. Tots seem to be also in a weird spot, for a 4SS model they aren’t impressive and are outclassed by dogs for most tasks (and neither are they the MVPs of the keyword). Their only advantage is the ability to grow into something useful; but the crew has barely enough resources to grow 2 models in turn 1 and in that case the BBS into mature give both a 4SS increase and some Focused pulses. Tots cannot compete there with a 2 or 3SS increase and no further benefice for the crew than self-healing.

So the idea would be increasing the cost of Lelu and Lilitu to 8SS (buffing both profiles to fit the new cost, keeping them with the same low mobility high splash damage theme but worth hiring for 8SS), and giving a second ability that remove corpses to the Tot that also give some benefice to other models or the crew. Frantic Search (50% getting 1 SS) could work or maybe a new one that gives Focused or Fast to 1 friendly model (not a pulse) for example.

The benefices of the above would be creating an alternative “grow path” different from BBS -> Mature worth using and also giving tots and Lelu/Lilitu pair a bit of extra value because for only 2 corpses a tot can give some benefice to the crew, increase the net SS value in 4 and replace one of the killed twins (so they can keep their synergy going); and twins being 8SS models would be harder to kill.

Thematically, Lelu and  Lilitu are also described as alternative mature forms of Nephs so having them as a bit more expensive minions than Youngs is also kind of fitting with the Lore (in the sense that they really aren't Mature forms, but are also unlikely to evolve into Matures because Young/BBS give more benefices... and the few humans that discovered this were eaten XD)

So what do you think? Would it be good for the crew? Would it make it too good? Would you rather models as they are now?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think changes like that would have been great in the beta, but it is too late to redesign crews without major reason.

[Ogid]

It's not really a redesign, these 3 models have the same role and the crew functionality is the same, but with a more viable (imo) Lelu/Lilitu strategy and a reason to use tots; also this doesn't change anything for a player that wants to play the most common list with Matures/Young/BBS and some versatiles. It's in reality a buff suggestion for 3 models, but taking in count the crew theme and playstile.

Nailing a game with so many model and interactions it's impossible; and players neglecting half of a keyword is a good reason to suggest a change like this one imo.

[Sharp_GT]

I'd be happy if we get a female mature neph alt sculpt for lilitu to grow into

[farmoar]

36 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

I'd be happy if we get a female mature neph alt sculpt for lilitu to grow into

I would be happy with a second Mature sculpt in general, lol

[Nagi21]

13 hours ago, farmoar said:

I would be happy with a second Mature sculpt in general, lol

I mean we already have 2 sculpts... technically... I think...

As far as the tots into Lelu/Lilitu path, I don't much agree with two things here.  First off, you should never be buying tots, and with all the other 3 stone scheme runners, unless there's some massive change to them, all I see them as is Hayreddin summons, which really is where they're good.  Figure to summon one you have to kill something with blood.  Now that something (usually) drops a corpse marker for the tot to eat, then they just have to either kill something or eat something else and now you have younglings.  They really come into their own vs crews with a lot of cheap summons (not you Asami, sit down). 

Secondly, the reason nobody wants to evolve tots into them is that you need both of them to get max value, and while Lelu is a good 7 stone model (decent damage, conditions, easy access to black blood damage, card cycling), Lilitu is just... bad.  Models can get away with WP 4... they can't really get away with DF 4 at 7 wds, especially since the "twinned healing" mechanic only works if both are injured.  Her melee attack does 2/2/3 which is abysmal for a 7 stone model (even if she does have a crit strike).  A stat 7 lure is nice but it's short range that puts her in danger, and she has no defenses at all, so even if you kept her, Lelu, and Hayreddin in a bubble... it's so fragile and so expensive and SO slow.  Add the fact that you need TWO grows to make the duo worth it at all, and you see why a Youngling is a better investment, a better murder machine, and remember in the end, the idea is to throw a mature into the fray, trade it, then grow another one. 

Even if you gave slight buffs, the schtick with the twins is they make each other better, and growing two tots is a pretty rare thing.  It'd be like giving Viktoria a buff, but still only getting one.  It's not gonna be as good as the set unless you completely break the model.

[Ogid]

I agree with your points @Nagi21, and that's exactly why I proposed the above; the idea isn't creating a new meta for Nephilims but give a purpose to the underdogs and a niche alternative playstile without shooting yourself in the foot for fielding 2 pair of twins.

The tot as you said cannot compete with the 3SS models, and the protected (Neph) is a terrible trade for the Neph player (in fact, they'd be much more useful with take the hit to be used as meat shields!). And they cannot compete also with the BBS (4SS increase plus a ton of APs worth of focus vs 3SS and wasted APs).

Lelu and Lilitu don't need to be picked together, in fact a solo Lelu is a legit pick and a solo Lilitu would be if her profile were decent; picking both you are giving up some mobility for a more powerful synergy... but right now that's a questionable choice. As you said the weak link is the Lilitu, with Df4 and needing to be hurt to trigger the heal, plus being slow, plus playing a different game than the rest of the crew (slow, distracted...); that model needs a buff badly. The idea of increasing the cost to 8 is both to reinforce the Tot->Twins path and to make their synergy a bit better, a 8SS model shouldn't be as easy to kill (if both profiles are well updated of course). But keeping the cost at 7 and buffing Lilitu, it could be enough.

The idea is giving some room to adapt to the crew, right now if you want to play Nephs competitively is all about Matures/Young/BBS; adding maybe 1 Lelu if you really need the ping damage or a 1 or 2 dogs as fillers.