Hamelin and the hype?

[Undercostedhenchman]

I have seen a lot of posts about Hamelin here and he seems to get a lot of attention but I don’t see what he does better than anyone else in outcasts. Can anyone explain why they like him so much or if there’s a hole he’s filling that I’m not seeing? 

[Ming]

Plague can be very good at some schemes and strategies. It can lure models and drop markers next to them. It can infect and explode enemies, which can be good at killing-oriented scheme pool. Nihilism isn't what it used to be, but still can be useful. But it takes a lot of time to setup.

[Fingalen]

I haven't played Hamelin much in m3e so I might be totally mistaken, but I guess all these tactical discussions just try to defend him as a viable master and to prove he can still be usable in some matchups. He had been the strongest outcast master in the 2e and one of the strongest in the game and he just moved to the opposite end of the ranking. A lot of people still like his theme and mechanics and try to find a way to use him effectively despite all this. Is he still playable? I guess he is. I can think of really great setups where he would shine. But even in these, I have no problem to find another outcast master to handle those setups better. One of the reasons is also the lenght of his games. Plenty of models, random summons and re-/activations take a lot of time and since all the important actions take place in the last 2-3 turns, he is often not able to make it in time. 

But it is totally possible, that I am missing something important and still need to find out his tricks.

[Zeus]

At the moment Hamelin is just too easy to tech against to be competitive compared with other outcasts.

Someone has mentioned giving rats evasive in the errata topic this thematically would make sense and would be similar to steam arachnids which have this ability. It could significantly help with the crews major weakness but it maybe step to far? Another option could be to give them  blast proof +1 or +2 so multiply rats don’t die to every blast shockwave pulse attack in the game. 

[steamboyd]

I would argue that if an opponent is even devoting a couple of ap per turn to killing rats, or by 'teching against them' they draw out a suboptimal choice in crew selection or tactics, then the rats are doing their job. 

Also, even with aoe, pulses, blasts, pyre markers etc you still summon a load of rats incidentally, without devoting too much ap to it. Aoe damage is more of a problem in the way it bypasses your stealth, serene countenance and manipulative. 

Turn length is a problem however. 

[LexLock]

21 minutes ago, steamboyd said:

I would argue that if an opponent is even devoting a couple of ap per turn to killing rats, or by 'teching against them' they draw out a suboptimal choice in crew selection or tactics, then the rats are doing their job. 

Also, even with aoe, pulses, blasts, pyre markers etc you still summon a load of rats incidentally, without devoting too much ap to it. Aoe damage is more of a problem in the way it bypasses your stealth, serene countenance and manipulative. 

Turn length is a problem however. 

I think that this approach is ridiculous. You choose Hamelin as a master for two reasons, blight and rats, if you let your opponent kill off your rats instead of using them for Pustulent Tumors or forming a Rat King you've come a little closer to losing the game, just like if they kill any of your other models.

Rats aren't so easy to summon that they are worthless and that's not even mentioning the plethora of ways your opponent can gain a benefit from an on kill effect.

Hamelin's crew is a Rube Goldberg Machine of death that will chunk anything that gets caught in it, but it is extremely fragile and any amount of blasts or especially shockwaves will ruin your day.

[steamboyd]

1 hour ago, LexLock said:

I think that this approach is ridiculous. You choose Hamelin as a master for two reasons, blight and rats, if you let your opponent kill off your rats instead of using them for Pustulent Tumors or forming a Rat King you've come a little closer to losing the game, just like if they kill any of your other models.

Rats aren't so easy to summon that they are worthless and that's not even mentioning the plethora of ways your opponent can gain a benefit from an on kill effect.

Hamelin's crew is a Rube Goldberg Machine of death that will chunk anything that gets caught in it, but it is extremely fragile and any amount of blasts or especially shockwaves will ruin your day.

Hi lexlock, 

Hyperbole aside, I don't disagree with what you've said, except that saying there are only two reasons to play hamelin is a neat oversimplification. 

Rats are important to the crew, but id rather my opponent was killing rats than my other stuff. 

Blasts and other aoe do hose hamelin somewhat but all the more reason to limit how much ap you spend on summoning them I guess? 

That being said, I'm a fairly new hamelin player (only three games in) so I'm happy to be corrected by more experienced players. 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

2 hours ago, LexLock said:

I think that this approach is ridiculous. You choose Hamelin as a master for two reasons, blight and rats, if you let your opponent kill off your rats instead of using them for Pustulent Tumors or forming a Rat King you've come a little closer to losing the game, just like if they kill any of your other models.

This. People tend to oversimplify the role of rats and persuade me that I should be happy that they trade their AP into my cards. But that's not the whole picture - rats are a fuel of Plague mechanics, and if they can take them down effectively - by means of blasts, pulses, shockwaves or trampling over them (McCabe) - they are by no means helping me as a Plague player. Card draw is a consolation, not the goal of summoning rats.

[steamboyd]

52 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

This. People tend to oversimplify the role of rats and persuade me that I should be happy that they trade their AP into my cards. But that's not the whole picture - rats are a fuel of Plague mechanics, and if they can take them down effectively - by means of blasts, pulses, shockwaves or trampling over them (McCabe) - they are by no means helping me as a Plague player. Card draw is a consolation, not the goal of summoning rats.

So what is the answer to getting around these aoe mechanics for a hamelin player? 100% genuinely interested in your thoughts. 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

56 minutes ago, steamboyd said:

So what is the answer to getting around these aoe mechanics for a hamelin player? 100% genuinely interested in your thoughts. 

I don't think there is an answer other than making rats Evasive. By the way, I agree with you that if an opponent hires suboptimal model(s) only to counter rats, that's a good deal for you. The thing is that many Keywords have access to blasts and schockwaves without going suboptimal.

[SoulGambit]

Hamelin gets a lot of discussoon because he is difficult to master but interesting, so people are reaching out to work him over. He doesn't have a lot of play data, so he is still worth theoryfauxing.

Contrast Parker. Parker takes some turning over in your head, but at the end of the day he is a solved puzzle. People know what Parker does well so discussion is kind of "uh huh, I agree with everything that was said."

Hamelin  we are still waiting for the lightbulb to go off on someone and them to make like, the post that helps the average player go from meh Hamelin to good Hamelin; and good Hamelin to great Hamelin.

[Maniacal_cackle]

As an outsider, it seems like the main plan is to get 3+ blight tokens on the enemy crew, then start spamming 3+ damage attacks? Once an enemy model has three blight tokens, you're looking at hitting for at least 3 damage with:

• Stolen (kinda)
• Hamelin
• Nix
• Obedient wretch (and the opponent can't cheat!)

That's a ton of 'min 3' beaters to be fitting into a single crew. And many of them can do it from 10" away! That seems crazy for a crew also full of scheme marker and interact shenanigans. Nix seems neat on heaps of strategies, since he can shut down interacts so easily.

[SoulGambit]

So, picking your master is based on approximately six factors: Your goals/familiarity, what you know about your opponent as a player, the strategy, the deployment, the scheme pool, and the enemy faction. Worse, your decision is based on an intersection of these factors that often reverse or significantly change the outcome! Lets take a moment to look at Reckoning (a Strategy Hamelin is traditionally bad at) against Ressurectionists (which is a faction Hamelin has significant problems against) and see how when you are facing Ressurectionists in Reckoning Hamelin is at minimum a top two pick, if not the best pick. This is because Hamelin has a hidden ability on his card that isn't printed: Hamelin dictates what your opponent's crew must be in order to win.

Ressurectionists are difficult because anyone who is across the table can and probably should reach for Datsue Ba and Manos. Lantern of Souls is going to shut off the card draw from Malifaux rats plus a few other things, and Datsue Ba means that Malifaux Rats are just Onryo that don't know it yet. However, both of those models have a significant disadvantage in Reckoning in that they are Henchmen, meaning that is a lot of Reckoning Points. Worse, one of the things Hamelin brings to the table in Reckoning is the fact that he can just eat Masters and Henchmen, meaning that they are not safe, and Manos definitely can not operate as freely as he may want to.

A Ressurectionist (or any faction, really) playing into Reckoning is either going to go for a small elite crew who can kill a lot, or include more "combat schemers" who can function independently and complete schemes normally, or go with pure scheme runners around a combat-centric core. A Ressurectionist is likely going to favor Seamus, Yan Lo, McMourning, or Jack Daw. You are more likely to see Seamus or McMourning into scheming pools that require a lot of mobility. Jack Daw is almost always going to play that small elite block that prefers schemes they can complete while killing you. I'm not familiar enough with Yan Lo to really comment. Outside of Datsue Ba and Manos, your big worries are Drowned, Jaakuna Ubume, Goryo, Dead Rider and Kentauroi. Of those, Dead Rider and Goryo are the most accessible out of keyword.

Lets say they are Jack Daw. 20ss is a long way out of the way for Datsue Ba and Manos, for the privileged of feeding you Reckoning Points, so you probably won't see those. You'll see Jaakuna, Drowned, two Hanged, maybe a Crooked Man, and maybe a Goryo with GST if they want to be cheeky. Whisperer on Jack Daw, Jaakuna, Drowned, Hanged x2, and Goryo with GST is about what Jack could afford. A Hanged would probably be dropped for something that gives more scheming potential in this case. Except... you a) know your opponent is going to field that and b) know that if they don't field basically that or something like it, then Hamelin can overwhelm them. Against Jack Daw you really need aoe, Focus, and anti Terrifying. You can also be reasonably confident they don't have anti demise. So something like Hamelin, two Rat Kings, Obedient Wretch, Hans, Hodgepodge Emissary as well as Ashes and Dust can work. Purchasing Malifaux rats in place of a Rat King is also a solid play that lets you have vermin early, but runs the risk of the Goryo. This is a small elite crew, but both A&D and Rat Kings can switch hit to being scheme runners when you need it. Most of your models are capable of two-shotting most of Jack Daw's Crew, or one shotting after some Pustulent Tumors.

If they pick Seamus, Whisperer and Carrion Emissary will quickly follow. He desperately wants Focus +2 from his Crew, especially in Reckoning, so lets say two Nurses follow that. Dead Rider and Goryo + GST are the biggest anti Hamelin models that don't run into the henchmen issue and... we are at 48 Stones. Practically speaking, that probably means down GST on the Goryo and/or a Nurse. The other issue is, even two anti Hamelin models doesn't really feel like enough, and you still don't get anti demise without feeding Hamelin points. So as Hamelin, what do you do? First, you are going to have to bite the bullet and hire Henchmen--specifically, you really want Nix and you want Pride. That is going to introduce some serious unreliability into Seamus' peekabo tactics thanks to lowering the maximum damage to 6 instead of 8, and forcing Seamus to cheat last is going put some serious pressure on his hand. Expect Seamus to want to go first and immediately delete Pride before Pride can go, so Pride is going to need Soldier for Hire. Emissary is excellent in this matchup because he requires at least 3 AP to kill, even in ideal circumstance, and he supplies a significant amount of healing. Obedient Wretch, who is going to survive through sheer force of Stealth, will bring us down to 18 Stones. We need a huge cache because of our Henchmen, so we are looking at Hans with Soldier for Hire, Rat King (*maybe* two), Ashes and Dust, or Malifaux Rats.

Lets say they pick McMourning--now you are in trouble. Dead Rider, two Kentauroi, and two Nurses is a fairly standard McMourning core that leaves McMourning with 11 Stones and is going to put a pretty solid krimp in your style. I would probably equip then Kentauroi with the Whisperer to capitalize on the card draw and give them a defense against Bleeding Disease. I'd also swap a Nurse to Rafkin, putting us at Rafkin, Dead Rider, Kenrauroi + Whisperer x2, Nurse, and 5ss. This list is very fast, heals a lot, and can swap between focusing down one target with poison and pumping out the AoEs to keep the rat population down. Hamelin immediately takes Obedient Wretch, Hans, Hodgepodge Emissary, and Johan Creedy. From there I'd either say two Rat Kings and 6ss or one Rat King, Nix, and 6ss. Henchmen are always a risk, but you desperately need aoe Blight and McMourning isn't so great at putting someone like Nix down. Hans tries to Stun + Distracted the Kentauroi with their Df 4 to keep them pinned down (seriously, Stunned *really* ruins their day). Johan is on emergency poison removal duty. Hamelin tries to isolate models that have already gone using lure before letting his crew have their way with them.

In all of these matchups, except possibly McMourning, Hamelin has the advantage. The Ressurectionists can't bring their strongest anti-hamelin tech to bare without putting themselves at a serious disadvantage. Rat King are simultaneously anti schemers, schemers, and beaters. You draw a lot of out of keyword and versatile models, but Outcast has a lot of strong models in the elite beater category to draw from. You could argue Leveticus is better in all of these cases, and that might be true. However, its close enough that familiarity and scheme pool are going to tilt things in one direction or the other.

 

In contrast, if you try to play Hamelin into Ressurectionists on Cursed Idols you... ...

...

Good luck.