What Would You Errata? (in Guild)

[4thstringer]

40 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Something I just thought of is that Power Converter have the option of the discarding of a card instead of a scrap marker to gain a power token. 

It would allow the crew to be a bit more autonomous. 

It would mean that the constructs had more play in Lucius, but I'm not sure they can afford to make augmented more powerful, (given the power of the arc version)

[Da Git]

My take on Witch Hunters. 

Sonnia desperately needs wk 5 to help her get out of combat. I'd also like df5 and stat 6 runic blade. 

Queller - give them another bonus that's not niche. Maybe make Flaming Brand to be a bonus action? Also either give them gun fighter or a melee attack. I loved the previous ideas of a gravity well marker and soul lantern rather than Barrier. 

Witchling Stalkers - Loved the Light the way idea for Stalkers (gain Tomes against non-burning targets). These guys are kind of terrible right now. 

Handlers - Goad Witchling is not Minion-specific. 

Idea for Upgrade, any upgrade. Give it On the move. So many Guild models would love a 3" push at the start of their activation. Probably swap On the Prowl for this on Take No Prisoners

[theamazingmrg]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

Handlers - Goad Witchling is not Minion-specific. 

The only non-Minion Witchling is the Totem and that doesn't really need the extra 2" movement.  It can still move 15" a turn and set things on fire.  For a 2SS (technically) model that's not bad at all.

[Morgan Vening]

48 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

The only non-Minion Witchling is the Totem and that doesn't really need the extra 2" movement.  It can still move 15" a turn and set things on fire.  For a 2SS (technically) model that's not bad at all.

Couple it with not being Insignificant, and it's IMO one of the best Totems in the game, independent of the Master.

ie, if it didn't have Totem and I could buy it into any crew, it'd be in EVERY crew.

[Sebargue]

44 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Couple it with not being Insignificant, and it's IMO one of the best Totems in the game, independent of the Master.

ie, if it didn't have Totem and I could buy it into any crew, it'd be in EVERY crew.

I can't agree with you more. It's one of the best totems in the game (as I know so far). I really love the witch hunter keyword. Sonnia was my second crew and I really loved playing her. Now I find it simple to use (easy sinergy with the burning mechanics) and an ideal crew to learn how to play (summon, attack, conditions,...). I don't find special lack of anything in her crew, it's basically the same it was on M2E.

The problem I see is that now Sonnia doesn't hit as hard as she used to. But now you can deal extreme damage and summon a witchling. It would be great if there were any models that could cause injured so WP would go down and it would be easier to transform. Something like, the target gains-1wp for every 3 burning beyond the first one (like the damage of burning at the end of the turn) when trying to use Scorch the Soul, buy you had a relatively high TN (so you have to spend a medium-high card anyway but the target was easier to transform when being burning).

Just a little idea...

[Mikes]

11 hours ago, Da Git said:

My take on Witch Hunters. 

Sonnia desperately needs wk 5 to help her get out of combat. I'd also like df5 and stat 6 runic blade. 

Queller - give them another bonus that's not niche. Maybe make Flaming Brand to be a bonus action? Also either give them gun fighter or a melee attack. I loved the previous ideas of a gravity well marker and soul lantern rather than Barrier. 

Witchling Stalkers - Loved the Light the way idea for Stalkers (gain Tomes against non-burning targets). These guys are kind of terrible right now. 

Handlers - Goad Witchling is not Minion-specific. 

Idea for Upgrade, any upgrade. Give it On the move. So many Guild models would love a 3" push at the start of their activation. Probably swap On the Prowl for this on Take No Prisoners

I like these ideas mostly. I'd like to see the Handler do something a bit more to force amplify the witchlings. And agreed that right now the Stalker is basically useless. It used to be useless *but* a reliable source of burning, now it's not even that unless it dies near something.

[admiralvorkraft]

Their condition removal is quite good. Right now they're balanced around your ability to summon them. You probably wouldn't hire more than one. 

[theamazingmrg]

15 hours ago, Mikes said:

I like these ideas mostly. I'd like to see the Handler do something a bit more to force amplify the witchlings. And agreed that right now the Stalker is basically useless. It used to be useless *but* a reliable source of burning, now it's not even that unless it dies near something.

Something that allows Witchlings in range to drop a Scheme Marker somehow (probably as a bonus action) would work wonders I think. 

5 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Their condition removal is quite good. Right now they're balanced around your ability to summon them. You probably wouldn't hire more than one. 

If they could actually act as Scheme runners to go with the delightful 14" Mv they get from the Handler it would be a different story.

[admiralvorkraft]

Why? Quellers can drop markers at range (or tech in False Witness) and Sanctioned Spellcasters are your default scheme runner. 

Stalkers are condition removal and chump blockers. Considering you're mostly getting them as passive summons I don't know why they need to be anything more. 

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Why? Quellers can drop markers at range (or tech in False Witness) and Sanctioned Spellcasters are your default scheme runner. 

Stalkers are condition removal and chump blockers. Considering you're mostly getting them as passive summons I don't know why they need to be anything more. 

Should a model be relegated to summon only?  Especially when there are so many anti-synergies in the crew that pull off burning so that you wouldn't be able to summon them in the first place (I don't use those anti-synergistic models).    Making them mostly summon only really limits the usefulness of the Handler too.

 

[Gnomezilla]

4 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Should a model be relegated to summon only?...

Broadly, I say yes that’s fine to have summon fodder, if not too much of it—but rarely are they as costly as 5ss, which might be the sticking point. Witch hunters/witchlings have one of the few valuable 4ss hires though, so it’s not as much of a loss as it might otherwise be. Go ask Ressers about their experiences with summon fodder, I suppose.

[4thstringer]

I guess the thing to me is if summoned models are supposed to be less good, is that going to be true of Dreamer's summons too?  How about Kirais?  Or is this another thing that guild has assumed in their balancing that doesn't actually apply to the other factions?

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I guess the thing to me is if summoned models are supposed to be less good, is that going to be true of Dreamer's summons too?  How about Kirais?  Or is this another thing that guild has assumed in their balancing that doesn't actually apply to the other factions?

Its something that has often been the case. For all of M2 Hanged were a rubbish hire, but an amazing summon (for all the models that could summon them). I'm not comfortable enough about M3 to fully consign anything to that Summon only section, but I don't have a huge problem that such a section might exist. The model is still one that will see table time.  I'm fairly sure that if the Stitched together weren't summonable, then you wouldn't see anywhere near the same complaints about them.

[Da Git]

7 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Their condition removal is quite good. Right now they're balanced around your ability to summon them. You probably wouldn't hire more than one. 

I wouldn't hire 1 to be honest. I also probably wouldn't summon one if there was an alternative. Adding Tomes to their attacks if the opponent doesn't have burning probably wouldn't be much of a boon when summoned as by then a lot of enemies will have burning anyway. It would give them more of a reason to hire them.

This would probably be too much but how about giving them Reckless or Risky Manouevers as a bonus action and giving them Slow when summoned?

At the moment I'd always hire a Sanctioned Spellcaster or Thellarian Queller over a Stalker (& I'm very unconvinced about the Quellers)

[admiralvorkraft]

Building in the Tomes would probably be fine, it's not like it's hard to apply burning as-is. 

Like I said, I think they're mostly valuable as chump blockers. Like Malifaux Rats or some of the other summon-only models.

[theamazingmrg]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:41 PM, admiralvorkraft said:

Why? Quellers can drop markers at range (or tech in False Witness) and Sanctioned Spellcasters are your default scheme runner. 

Stalkers are condition removal and chump blockers. Considering you're mostly getting them as passive summons I don't know why they need to be anything more. 

Quellers are mostly pretty awful though, and can only drop Scheme Markers at range by removing the Burning that the rest of the crew really likes (and Sonnia needs to summon the Witchlings).  Spellcasters are affected by Severe Terrain (Stalkers are not, so another Scheme running option would be welcome.  Especially whe Stalkers are more expensive than the Spellcasters.  The Stalkers could really do with a bonus action.  It doesn't have to be Scheme-related, but I do think that would help.

[SerZaka]

6 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Quellers are mostly pretty awful though, and can only drop Schem Markers at range by removing the Burning that the rest of the crew really likes

I don't think you are making a good point here. A lot of crews sacrifice something they like to gain some bonuses. Foundry loves Scrap and yet almost all models can destroy them (and their mobility) to get temporary bonuses .

 

And Adversary is an extremely good Condition to put on someone. I don't know if you ever faced a Kirai but if she put that on someone she wants dead he is dead 

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, SerZaka said:

I don't think you are making a good point here. A lot of crews sacrifice something they like to gain some bonuses. Foundry loves Scrap and yet almost all models can destroy them (and their mobility) to get temporary bonuses .

 

And Adversary is an extremely good Condition to put on someone. I don't know if you ever faced a Kirai but if she put that on someone she wants dead he is dead 

Foundry drops scrap for free at the end of each activation.  Put that on all the witchling and witch Hunter models and we have a whole different theme going.

[belorey]

On 2/5/2020 at 12:53 PM, Da Git said:

Something I just thought of is that Power Converter have the option of the discarding of a card instead of a scrap marker to gain a power token. 

It would allow the crew to be a bit more autonomous. 

I think the henchman of augmented or maybe an enforcer/minion should have acces to a special augmented upgrade with the Power Nexus rule included.

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, belorey said:

I think the henchman of augmented or maybe an enforcer/minion should have acces to a special augmented upgrade with the Power Nexus rule included.

Nooooo.

At least not the way Power Nexus is written. Because you're less allowing them to be autonomous, and more just doubling the number of Power Tokens the crew gets. And the number of Power Tokens the crew gets can already be obnoxious.

Because even though Power Nexus is an Aura, the way it applies means it stacks (At the start of this model's Activation...).

[Da Git]

16 hours ago, SerZaka said:

I don't think you are making a good point here. A lot of crews sacrifice something they like to gain some bonuses. Foundry loves Scrap and yet almost all models can destroy them (and their mobility) to get temporary bonuses .

 

And Adversary is an extremely good Condition to put on someone. I don't know if you ever faced a Kirai but if she put that on someone she wants dead he is dead 

Those are two very different crews and function very differently that comparing them with Thalarian Quellers is not helpful (IMO).

Scrap are permanent until used (except by a few models that counter/can use them). Every model can remove Burning with an Assist action, let alone Nihilim/condition removal/models that use Burning for their own benefit (about the same amount as those that use Scrap). Foundry (at least I've found) can end up with a surplus of scrap in certain areas of the board.

I didn't start the fire would be decent if the Queller themselves could provide the Burning, but the Blaze trigger is not built in for them, so need a stone/high suited card/another model to set it up. Then you need an enemy in the right place at the right time.

Urami throw Adversary out like candy between Goryo, Onryo + Kirai's and Datsue-ba's triggers. That completely different from Quellers' Flaming Brand. Brand has the edge in that it goes off automatically, but needing Burning 3 is hard without the model being already or near dead unless they're armour 2 or something. The best way would be to have a Witchling (preferably a Thrall) engaging the target (but unactivated), give it Burning 3 with a Handler, then Flaming Brand it, then the Witchling activates and goes to town... See how convoluted that is? It'd be awesome if the target just needed Burning 1 (max 2), then it'd be worth taking!

I hope this is starting to give an idea of why Quellers are just way too situational to be useful.

My fixes would be something like:

• Gain Gunfighter
• Exchange Barrier to the Other World for Lantern of Souls - gives the Guild some Anti Demise, instead of anti summon which there's loads of (in Marshals)
• Exchange Startle for Gravity Well - it's a little more tech-y, but really cool when it works and gives the Guild some interesting toys.
• Make Flaming Brand a bonus action and only requires Burning +1 (1 use only, but easier to get off)
• Up them to 7ss with 7wounds

With these changes, I definitely think you'd see these guys actually hit the table. They provide some interesting tech that may see them hired OOK, they still have their blasty stick, but aren't completely shut down if engaged, and Flaming Brand is much easier to use in Keyword.

[belorey]

19 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Nooooo.

At least not the way Power Nexus is written. Because you're less allowing them to be autonomous, and more just doubling the number of Power Tokens the crew gets. And the number of Power Tokens the crew gets can already be obnoxious.

Because even though Power Nexus is an Aura, the way it applies means it stacks (At the start of this model's Activation...).

I'm thinking in a augmented crew with a henchman leader, if you play wirh Melisa or Joss as leader you have non sinergies between models.

Maybe a re-writte for Power Nexus upgrade or a new rule, but the augmented with their low DF/WP really need the Power Tokens.

[Zebo]

9 hours ago, belorey said:

the augmented with their low DF/WP really need the Power Tokens.

It doesn't matter how many times do you repeat this. 

5 of 15 Augmented Models are def 4, included the totem and the healing bot (the other 3 are Hoffman himself, Howard Langston and the Peacekeeper) 

5 of 15 (ok, 5 of 14 because Ryle is dead) is NOT a crew with low Def, specially since none of those models are minions susceptible of being hired multiple times, and two are cheap (or free) second line support models, and the other three have extra defense tech (like protected, concealment, terrifying or HtW). 

I agree with Augmented being weak at WP, since almost all the minions have WP 4, and this seems like a deliberate weakness for them. 

[theamazingmrg]

On 2/8/2020 at 10:05 PM, 4thstringer said:

Foundry drops scrap for free at the end of each activation.  Put that on all the witchling and witch Hunter models and we have a whole different theme going.

Plus Foundry use the Scrap to get the models where they need to be and then can use that Scrap for greater effect.  In that way the Scrap removal is actually very synergistic for them.  The opposite of the Burning removal on the Queller.

[Mycellanious]

7 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Plus Foundry use the Scrap to get the models where they need to be and then can use that Scrap for greater effect.  In that way the Scrap removal is actually very synergistic for them.  The opposite of the Burning removal on the Queller.

But Wyrd intentionally makes some aspects of a Keyword anti-synergistic in order to create interesting decisions. In this case, you need to choose whether leaving the Burning on a model to kill it later is more important than Dropping a Scheme Marker to score VP now, or whether its more important to keep burning on that model than to use it to heal your Thrall and keep it alive. 

In Chimera, only the Beasts are affected by the Adversary they give out. Marcus, Myranda, Paul , and Vogel do not benefit from it. Same thing with Myranda's heal, she CANNOT heal Vogel, Paul, or Marcus, the master. It would be very easy to include "Beasts OR CHIMERA" but Wyrd deliberately chose not to. Same thing with Chimera's Adaptive Evolution, not everyone has it so if you want to use your cool upgrade mechanic on the Rattler, that upgrade is not coming off. 

Maniqins and the Coryphee Duet cannot heal themselves or each other, as another example. Doc Mitchell can't use his Gun if Parker can see him or he dies is another.