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What Would You Errata? (in Guild)


Dark Reaper

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The only thing I would change to LJ is giving her a suit, in the Leap (maybe too OP) or in the Defense trigger.

My reasoning is that she's already very "stone-hungry": to hit triggers, to leap, to stay alive... So if at least the mask is printed in the Df, she will still be "killable" in a good activation from a beater, but will make interesting to cheat high cards to win the duel if at least she can put some damage back.

She's very "complete" all around to increase her Stat with the Greatsword to 7 without loosing something in return.

Some stuff that people usually miss from her is the trigger with Restore the Natural Order, that can deliver Injured +2 to a couple of models (just bring a couple of False Accusation and 1 Domador). Sometimes I even use Decay before leaping if I can target a 4-5Df model and put the blast on my real target to get the Injured going.

For the Marshall keyword in general, I feel like the DMR needs an adjustment and the Final Repose have to be: "When this models kills another model, it can chose to prevent the enemy model to drop any markers". Because there keyword has interactions with corpses for example, but there aren't as many corpses as in 2nd edition (many, many models that directly drop scrap or don't drop anything), corpses are less needed for other crews and Final Repose just makes other abilities like "One Foot Toward the Grave" and "Final Rest" useless.

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

DMR needs an adjustment and the Final Repose have to be: "When this models kills another model, it can chose to prevent the enemy model to drop any markers"

This seems perfectly reasonable.

Also, it drives me up the damn wall when models have such clearly anti-synergistic abilites like that.

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4 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

This seems perfectly reasonable.

Also, it drives me up the damn wall when models have such clearly anti-synergistic abilites like that.

With that fix (very much needed!) and increasing the range of "One Foot Towards the Grave"  to 5" and the DMR comes from unplayable in Marshall to an "ok" pick to fix the lack of mobility in the crew. They're still going to be slow at the beginning due to the lack of corpses, but at least it gives some extra mobility in turns 3 and onward.

Having all the similar auras at the same range within the keyword helps to speed up games and keep it simple:

  • Exorcist
    • Barrier to the other world: 5"
    • Final rest: 4". Pump it to 5", they already have to make a choice between this and False Accusation
  • DM
    • Hate the Dead: 6". I'll be happy to make it 5" if all the other auras/pulses get the small buff, for the sake of simplicity. Specially if the "At the start of activation" timing rules get clarified in favor of "chained effects", that would allow a DM to trigger first "One Foot Toward the Grave" and then benefit from "Hate the Dead".
  • Domadores de Cadáveres
    • The Art of Undead: 5"
  • DMR
    • Grim Recruitment: 5"
    • One Foot Toward the Grave: 3". It's clearly not enough.
  • The Jury
    • Guild Authority: 5"
    • By The Book: 6"
  • Lady Justice
    • Restore the Natural Order: 4". Could be bumped to 5" and it won't be such a huge buff
    • Inspiring Swordplay: 6"
  • Scales of Justice
    • Weight of Guilt: 4". Come on, he's going to die anyway to a breeze, 1" more wouldn't make much of a difference
    • Negation Aura: 3". Make it 5" and I'll consider using it instead of drawing a card. With both buffs, the cost could be increased to 3-4ss for future revisions.

For some of them I see why getting up to 6" (a more "standarized" value across keywords and factions) could be too much, so I'll be happy if all go to 5" to make it simpler for the Marshall player and also for his opponent.

 

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9 hours ago, korgal said:

Justice needs its attack at 7 !  When I see the tournaments, the guild is no longer played ....

It is not something that you're going to fix with Stat 7 in LJ, so your point is invalid.

If you read the reports, listen to any podcast or talk to the participants, usually is the lack of movement tricks and scheming/anti-scheming what makes harder for Guild to stay in the top positions. 

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I also don’t see why she doesn’t have the mask on leap. I would suspect it’s because of one or two reasons. They might have determined that a suited leap was just too much:

With a sword whose damage spread matches hers.

or

a swift reflexes trigger on her sword and a sudden strike trigger on leap was just too many attacks to give her free mobility as well.

One way to mitigate that could be to just remove the sudden strike trigger and give her the mask.

or give her an ability called:

Momentum: If this model declared a walk action during its activation it may add a mask to their tactical actions until the end of their activation.

That would help mitigate the amount of attacks she could make since 1 of her actions would have to be a walk for the mask. 
 

It might give her more options in how she works. But yes I’d personally like to see her get the mask on her leap, and give whatever small tweaks have to be done if needed so she could have it.

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16 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I also don’t see why she doesn’t have the mask on leap.

The only saving grace is that none of the models that have Leap and the Sudden Strike Trigger (LJ, The First Mate, and Manos) have a suit built-in so they all require the right card and a Soulstone to hit the Trigger.  the mask tends to be included on the more expensive models that can't use Soulstones (and the Sabertooth Cerberus has it because it also has a different Trigger)

 

It'll be to stop SS users bouncing around and hitting people willy-nilly.

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On 1/21/2020 at 10:46 AM, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I agree that her totem needs work. She is the only master where I have seen an extremely compelling argument to not take their totem. It's silly that not taking a free model made to synergize with the crew may actually be the correct choice. However, I do think Perdita has some play and isn't in nearly as dire a state as I initially thought. I need to get her on the table a bit more. 

I don't see a reason to not take her totem. In fact I think her totem is perfectly fine. It isn't uncommon to hire a model to push your master up the field in round 1 and the EN does exactly that. It also isn't uncommon to hire a model just to give focus to a model and, hey, the totem does that too on a trigger.. He's a great first activation and you're perfectly happy when your opponent kills him since you get a card. He's insignificant so there is no downside. What is the compelling argument not to take this model?

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21 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

The only saving grace is that none of the models that have Leap and the Sudden Strike Trigger (LJ, The First Mate, and Manos) have a suit built-in so they all require the right card and a Soulstone to hit the Trigger.  the mask tends to be included on the more expensive models that can't use Soulstones (and the Sabertooth Cerberus has it because it also has a different Trigger)

 

It'll be to stop SS users bouncing around and hitting people willy-nilly.

The big difference between lj and those other sudden strike models is that lj is a master.  Can't those 7 points of additional cost buy that mask?

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Honestly, I don't think Lady J needs any change at all. Never felt like she was lacking anything, either as the Leader, or as an additional hire. She works perfectly fine for me.

And her being better doesn't solve the problem that has IMO always been the rest of the crew. Would just make her SuperPaleRider.

They just don't seem to gel in the same way most other Keywords do. Sure, they've got synergies, but it's very much a Rube Goldberg contraption to make the most out of it, rather than the models being decent in their own way. I'd rather more time was spent on beefing that, than more work on J.

Maybe have some "If Lady Justice is the Leader" minor tweaks to certain models. 

Just think the effort to tweak Lady J up is coming at the expense of the rest of the Keyword being mostly mediocre. That Lady J is the ONLY Master to have gone up during the Beta indicates Wyrd thinks she's fine where she is. The only change I can see her getting if she is considered "underpowered" is a drop back to 15, and that does nothing to fix her crew.

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23 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

The big difference between lj and those other sudden strike models is that lj is a master.  Can't those 7 points of additional cost buy that mask?

An Leap and 4 attacks each turn would get mental very quickly!  It's still doable, but this way its trickier.  I think its fine as it is tbh. 

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3 pages on LJ in "what would you errata" seems a little too important if you compare here to other models/keywords.

Like Family, an aggressive keyword without defense or healing ?

Or Guards having the hardest summon mechanic in the game ?

Or our general lack of movement tricks ?

Or our upgrades being sub par ?

Or weakness of witch hunter models ?

Lady Justice being melee 7 will not change the efficiency of guild. I t will only make her an unstoppable super blender  that can be anywhere on board. A kind of must take super beater. Who wants to to have every guild team use LJ (16+1), Pale Rider (11), Steward (6), a random boss with his totem and one additionnal minion ?

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1 hour ago, le_wahou said:

3 pages on LJ in "what would you errata" seems a little too important if you compare here to other models/keywords.

Like Family, an aggressive keyword without defense or healing ?

You have 3 good versatile models (Efissary, Rider and Steward). I've faced her many times since there are 3 players in my meta than play family often, and I don't think that's the problem.

Or Guards having the hardest summon mechanic in the game ?

This I would like to know more! I've been interested in Dashel since I saw the new concept. Is it that clunky?

Or our general lack of movement tricks ?

120% agree with this.

Or our upgrades being sub par ?

I wouldn't say they're subpar. Niche, maybe, but I've seen worse (Outcasts).

Or weakness of witch hunter models ?

More than weakness, some models look directly useless (sanctioned spellcaster, thallarian queller) since they're not Witchling. But I think that in the future it will be the possibility of going hard on Witchling or the other Witch Hunters. I'm more concerned about all of those SS users and there isn't any way to recover/gain SS during the game.

Lady Justice being melee 7 will not change the efficiency of guild. I t will only make her an unstoppable super blender  that can be anywhere on board. A kind of must take super beater. Who wants to to have every guild team use LJ (16+1), Pale Rider (11), Steward (6), a random boss with his totem and one additionnal minion ?

In general, I agree with most of what you say :)

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Justice started Beta with a build-in :mask in the Leap, and then removed at the same week (or at least in a very short period) when her Ml had tuned down to 6. So I believe those 2 changes were because of the same reason. And I see no reason that Justice is getting any one back in close future since there is no big changed between Beta's meta and current's. Maybe after GG 1 and wave 2, if it shows that Justice has been fall behind to much.

Anyway the thread remind me some idea has been raised during the Beta after Justice has been tuned down. Not saying any of this is balance or necessary, just want to share about some interesting idea which may inspire others.

  • Adds a build-in :mask in the Leap
  • Removes Sudden Strike trigger
  • Adds a new trigger to Leap: Phantom :mask:mask- Until the End Phase, add a :mask to this model's final duel totals.
  • Adds a new trigger to Leap: Justice Unleash :ram - Enemy models within :new-Pulse:2 must each pass a TN14 Df duel or suffer 1 damage and gain Injuried +1.
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38 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Or weakness of witch hunter models ?

More than weakness, some models look directly useless (sanctioned spellcaster, thallarian queller) since they're not Witchling.

I honestly think Sanctioned spellcasters are quite good for their cost. A scheme runner which is fast on the first turn, has Shielded 1 and a ranged attack with blast and automatic burning is better than many other 4 SS models.

Thallarian Queller on the other hand is completely useless IMHO. It's a slightly worse Sanctioned spellcaster that costs 2 SS more for some reason. And some of its abilities are just really strange. That model needs to be reworked from scratch.

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On 1/31/2020 at 4:25 PM, Mortarion said:

I honestly think Sanctioned spellcasters are quite good for their cost. A scheme runner which is fast on the first turn, has Shielded 1 and a ranged attack with blast and automatic burning is better than many other 4 SS models.

Thallarian Queller on the other hand is completely useless IMHO. It's a slightly worse Sanctioned spellcaster that costs 2 SS more for some reason. And some of its abilities are just really strange. That model needs to be reworked from scratch.

Agreed.  Sanctioned Spellcasters are simply a cheap Burning delivery mechanism that can get Fast to scheme when necessary.

 

Quellers are a weird model that needs to get fairly close to the enemy to get the most out of it, but has no ability to deal damage in melee so can be shut down by simply being engaged.  I actually think it might be better in Journalist crews than Witch Hunters because of its ability to apply Burning +1, then end it to drop a Scheme marker that the Journalists can play off.  It just doesn't work in Witch Hunters because you don't want to be ending the Burning to drop that Scheme Marker in that crew (and that's really the only useful thing about the Queller).

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3 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

Agreed.  Sanctioned Spellcasters are simply a cheap Burning delivery mechanism that can get Fast to scheme when necessary.

 

Quellers are a weird model that needs to get fairly close to the enemy to get the most out of it, but has no ability to deal damage in melee so can be shut down by simply being engaged.  I actually think it might be better in Journalist crews than Witch Hunters because of its ability to apply Burning +1, then end it to drop a Scheme marker that the Journalists can play off.  It just doesn't work in Witch Hunters because you don't want to be ending the Burning to drop that Scheme Marker in that crew (and that's really the only useful thing about the Queller).

Their other weird place are as a blast spamming piece.  If you are facing a crew that really really likes to bunch up, they can be scary

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2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Their other weird place are as a blast spamming piece.  If you are facing a crew that really really likes to bunch up, they can be scary

That is true, but you can get three Spellcasters to do that (potentially with Fast) for the same price as two Quellers.  Admittedly the Quellers are longer range with a higher stat, but still.

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4 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

Agreed.  Sanctioned Spellcasters are simply a cheap Burning delivery mechanism that can get Fast to scheme when necessary.

 

Quellers are a weird model that needs to get fairly close to the enemy to get the most out of it, but has no ability to deal damage in melee so can be shut down by simply being engaged.  I actually think it might be better in Journalist crews than Witch Hunters because of its ability to apply Burning +1, then end it to drop a Scheme marker that the Journalists can play off.  It just doesn't work in Witch Hunters because you don't want to be ending the Burning to drop that Scheme Marker in that crew (and that's really the only useful thing about the Queller).

Their drain magic trigger on their ranged attack is also good. A ranged discard solution on a 12" attack starting at 6 is good, even if you do not have the included trigger. The I didn't start the fire is also a scoring action. You usually do not want to remove burning on opponent, but a scheme marker drop at 8" can be 1 VP !

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2 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

Their drain magic trigger on their ranged attack is also good. A ranged discard solution on a 12" attack starting at 6 is good, even if you do not have the included trigger. The I didn't start the fire is also a scoring action. You usually do not want to remove burning on opponent, but a scheme marker drop at 8" can be 1 VP !

I can look at Quellers abilities and think "yeah, I could use that" but every time I've had them on the table I've wished I'd taken something else.  After all, Drain Magic is quite common in the crew (albeit only on melee attacks outside of the Queller) so its not enough of a reason by itself.  They have some niche uses but the overall package is disappointing.

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On 1/31/2020 at 7:19 AM, Trample said:

I don't see a reason to not take her totem. In fact I think her totem is perfectly fine. It isn't uncommon to hire a model to push your master up the field in round 1 and the EN does exactly that. It also isn't uncommon to hire a model just to give focus to a model and, hey, the totem does that too on a trigger.. He's a great first activation and you're perfectly happy when your opponent kills him since you get a card. He's insignificant so there is no downside. What is the compelling argument not to take this model?

The effect to focus is a trigger you won't always have and you can get more out of Hero's Gamble if you have fewer models. Kind of sad but more free cards is tempting. Black blood can make it a bit of a liability as can its low stats.

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